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"107 and counting: Killings by concealed handgun permit holders"

ixtow

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Phoenix David wrote:
How did the fact that they had a CCW facilitate the crime that they committed? Did it allow them to access a place where non-CCW holders would not have been allowed to posses a weapon?
Don't you know? Having a gun handy made 'anger' an easier option... There is no way any of it could have been pre-meditated. There is no way the same 'anger' could have been amplified by any other object. There is no way they could have gotten a gun any other way than to have been born with it attached to their hip.... It's just impossible for anything bad to happen if you don't have a gun on you.

[/sarcasm]

But, you'd have to beleive that all to be true for their arguments to make any sense.
 

opusd2

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I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.
 

Rusty

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Interesting.

the rate of these type of incidents to CCW holders is .0017%

The latest numbers I can find for Firearms deaths is 1998, but looking at those numbers (30,419) divided by US population in 1998 (270,298,524) brings us .0112%. So If I am reading this right, a CCW holder is 6.5 times less likely to commit one of these crimes then the average person.
 

Alexcabbie

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opusd2 wrote:
I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.

There are some present and former LEOs on this board - such as, oh, ME. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that your comment is highly insulting.

When specific incidents are being discussed it is one thing. Tarring and feathering on general principles is quite another. I think I jave enough of a rep around here to be known as anything but a statist sympathizer. It is one thing to note that the power commensurat with an LEO's office provides a plethora of opportunities and avenues for abuse, etc; and that some LEOs go that route either deliberately or in honest error of the scope aand nature of their mission etc.



It is quite another thing to say that peace officers as a group are no better than "common criminals". That is sorta like saying that firemen are no better than arsonists.

Besides which there is a rule here against LEO bashing. Which you just broke, in spades. I am not gonna go whining to John or Mike about this, but you owe a few of your brother OCDOers an profound apology. If that is you are actually one of us.
 

Rusty

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Actually I just went to that website

In 2009, the Violence Policy Center began an ongoing research project to identify killings beginning in May 2007 to the present by individuals with concealed handgun permits.

So these numbers are not even from 1 year. At this point we are talking 2.5 years data.

So, if I take that data, and expound a little.

In 1998 there were 30,419 homicides, suicides, accidents involving firearms.

If we take that as a typical year, then lets multiple that number by 2.5 so we are comparing apples to apples here

So in 2.5 years, we have about 76,048 of these incidents, nationwide.

Now lets divide that by our population *july 1998 (304,059,724) = .025%

So now we compare these crimes committed by our population in general (.025%), vs the same crimes committed by our CCW holders (.0017%)

and we see that the CCW holders are 14.5 times less likely to commit one of these crimes, vs general population.
 

wayneco

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I bet those people also had jobs, voted and were carrying drivers licenses.

Is there a point to this or just another Handgun Control Inc smear campaign on the 5 million (and growing) licensed concealed carry holders in the nation?
 

opusd2

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Alexcabbie wrote:
opusd2 wrote:
I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.

There are some present and former LEOs on this board - such as, oh, ME. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that your comment is highly insulting.

When specific incidents are being discussed it is one thing. Tarring and feathering on general principles is quite another. I think I jave enough of a rep around here to be known as anything but a statist sympathizer. It is one thing to note that the power commensurat with an LEO's office provides a plethora of opportunities and avenues for abuse, etc; and that some LEOs go that route either deliberately or in honest error of the scope aand nature of their mission etc.

It is quite another thing to say that peace officers as a group are no better than "common criminals". That is sorta like saying that firemen are no better than arsonists.

Besides which there is a rule here against LEO bashing. Which you just broke, in spades. I am not gonna go whining to John or Mike about this, but you owe a few of your brother OCDOers an profound apology. If that is you are actually one of us."



The only thing I will apologize for is that what my statement was meant to say that LEO's who commit crimes are the one who are as guilty as the common criminals. I feel bad that you read it as I was insinuating that all cops are criminals, but that's the problem with reading posts by strangers - It's difficult to get the point across to someone who doesn't know you.

Those who use excessive force because they can, who speed without reason, who drive drunk and get off because they can, all these guys are no better than those they are supposed to enforce the rules to and punish. I won't apologize for saying that police are no different that the average citizen in that they should be punished for breaking the laws as well. I know a couple of deputies that walk a very fine line between doing their job and just being a bully with a badge. But I also have met some very fine officers who I have the utmost greatest respect for.

So, feel attacked if you want but that wasn't what I was doing. I was just pointing out that LEOs are people like the rest of us, some are good and some are bad. Those who break the law are as criminal as those of us average citizens who do so and should be punished as such.
 

Alexcabbie

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Allright, Opus. But you just said "LEOs" in your post, not "LEOs who commit crimes" which makes them not just no better thn common criminals but rather common criminals in fact. And you probably heard about our ex-chief Baker here in Alexandria who broadsided a lady while he was smashed. But aqt least he manned up, owned up, took his medicine like a man and resigned.
 

ixtow

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Alexcabbie wrote:
opusd2 wrote:
I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.
It is quite another thing to say that peace officers as a group are no better than "common criminals". That is sorta like saying that firemen are no better than arsonists.
Except, well, when it's true....
 

Gundude

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Rusty wrote:
Interesting.

the rate of these type of incidents to CCW holders is .0017%

The latest numbers I can find for Firearms deaths is 1998, but looking at those numbers (30,419) divided by US population in 1998 (270,298,524) brings us .0112%. So If I am reading this right, a CCW holder is 6.5 times less likely to commit one of these crimes then the average person.

All your statistics are from the Brady bunch. INVALID!

How many firearm deaths were police shotings, accidental, suicides, homeowners protecting their home, carjackings, robberies, etc.

Comparing CCW holders to the general population is invalid. All of the general population donotown guns, some have them in the attic and haven't touched them in 40 yrs, some CCW holders never carry, some carry part of the time.

Police shootings.....Officer 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 all shoot the same person. If you count it as one person dying, ok. If you look at the individual police statements, each will say they shot a person. Is that 5 deaths. How are the stats compiled.

More people are killed by autos, than fall in bathtubs, so autos are more dangerous than bathtubs, but the comparison is not valid.
 

simmonsjoe

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Alexcabbie wrote:
opusd2 wrote:
I'm glad that after reading these comments that I am not the only one who keeps in mind that LEOs are as guilty as the common criminals who decide that human lives mean nothing. However, most criminals don't get a paid vacation or sit at a desk while their innocence it being tried.

There are some present and former LEOs on this board - such as, oh, ME. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that your comment is highly insulting.

When specific incidents are being discussed it is one thing. Tarring and feathering on general principles is quite another. I think I jave enough of a rep around here to be known as anything but a statist sympathizer. It is one thing to note that the power commensurat with an LEO's office provides a plethora of opportunities and avenues for abuse, etc; and that some LEOs go that route either deliberately or in honest error of the scope aand nature of their mission etc.



It is quite another thing to say that peace officers as a group are no better than "common criminals". That is sorta like saying that firemen are no better than arsonists.

Besides which there is a rule here against LEO bashing. Which you just broke, in spades. I am not gonna go whining to John or Mike about this, but you owe a few of your brother OCDOers an profound apology. If that is you are actually one of us.
I agree your comment, opusd2, cannot be taken as anything but a general insult. Nothing was taken out of context here, the quote was complete. I do not see the post in front of your can change its meaning either.

However, I think one should go around bashing any groups one chooses for any reason, including LEO's. Honesty is a good policy.
 

opusd2

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We live in an era where people, groups, are way too thin skinned. To a point if you want to not offend anyone, you either have to edit whatever you say or just say nothing at all.

I said my piece. I never mentioned that all officers are criminals, only that some are just criminals with a badge.

And some other people who are the greatest church going, polite, nice people are quite the illegal jerks.

The purpose of this article is that data is manipulated to meet the needs of the organization posting them. Whether it be leaving out certain demographics, or double posting in separate categories in order to get the numbers they need. It's absolutely disgusting to go to these lengths to try and sell a point in order to remove a right from a society. Absolutely disgusting.
 
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