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Thread: Clarifying laws on signs before trip

  1. #1
    Regular Member C-dub's Avatar
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    Good morning everyone.

    After reading and visiting this forum for several months I have finally registered. I live in Texas and have had a CHL for about 7 years. I have family in Kansas and visit at least a couple of times a year. The last few times I've intended to OC, but the weather was uncooperative. It was either too cold or raining, so I either had on a coat for warmth or to stay dry.

    Anyway, I'd like to sum up a few of things and see if I'm correct. Another trip is coming soon. I will be in and around Lawrence.

    1. I cannot OC into a business that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises.
    2. Any business that puts up any type of no gun sign can keep me from CC, but not OC.
    3. To prevent me from OC in a business I would need verbal notice from someone in that business.

    And one question: What about transitioning from CC to OC once inside a business? Is this allowed or not or is it not that simple?

    Thanks,
    C-dub

  2. #2
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    In Kansas it is perfectly Legal to Open Carry in Restaurants that serve Alcohol, however; Drinking Establishments codified under KSA 41-2601 are Illegal for Concealed Carry.

    KSA 75-7c12 provides that... 'nothing in this section [75-7c01 Kansas Personnal and Family Protection Act] prohibits/prevents... any [private business]..., provided the Private Property is posted... in accordance with the rules... promulgated by The Kansas Attorney General. KSA 75-7c12(2). Hereagain, this applies to Concealed Carry, not Open Carry, however; any Private Business may very well ask you to leave regardless of method of Carry. Refusal to leave when asked is a Crime under Kansas Law 21-3721(1)(A) whenever any Person... enters or remains on any Private Property not His own..., and refuses to leave when given a direct order by the [rightful occupant/owner].

    In short, you may Open Carry in a Restaurant that serves Alcohol, as is similiar in Texas, but you may not Concealed Carry in any Bar while in Kansas. Obstensibly, this prohibition does not apply to Open Carry, so, theroretically, it is permissable to Open Carry in Bars while in Kansas..., but this is not advisable. The climate on this issue is similiar to that of Texas, with the 51% rule as it pertains to Alcohol sales.

    However, remember the Private Property Rights of others and be cautious of their Rights, if confronted in Public while Carrying on others Property, as is Law under 21-3721(1)(A).

    Otherwise, you should be fine. Open Carry on Public Property is Legal in Kansas, as the State does not regulateOpen Carry. The State only regulates Concealed Carry on this issue, as is codified under 21-4201(4). Law Enforcement should be aware Open Carry is Legal, however; you should too be aware that under KSA 12-16 124, Local Governments and Counties may regulate Open Carry of LoadedFirearms on ones Person, or Carry inAir/Land/Water Vehicle, KSA12-16-124(2) and 12-16 124(4), and the same Law alsoworks at prohibiting carry intoa/ny: jail, juvenile detention facility, prison, courthouse, courtroom or city hall- KSA 12-16 124(3). With the exception of KSA 12-16-124(3), being in the possesion of a Permit from Kansas, or one which Kansas reconizes, is an affirmative defense to any prosecution under KSA 12-16 124(2) or KSA 12-16 124(4).

  3. #3
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    Hey aadvark,

    Great post with great information!



    One thing of note, the legislature passed HB 2528 the 2nd year after concealed carry became law in Kansas. HB 2528 allows CCW permit holders to carry concealed in places that serve alcohol. So if C-dub has a Texas CCW he or she would be allowed to CC in any establishment that serves alcohol in KS.


    [size=

    Concealed Carry Modifications in Light of H.B. 2528 ][/size][size=][/size]

    The following analysis of the language passed by the Legislature in HB 2528 is intended to provide some guidance to Kansas concealed carry licensees. The information provided is based on language contained in HB 2528 and should not be viewed as an Attorney General’s opinion.

    ƒ Preemption of City & County Ordinances etc.

    -House bill 2528, in its modification of K.S.A. 12-16,124, allows concealed carry licensees to take their loaded weapons off of their person while they are traveling in their vehicles and not be subject to local ordinances or resolutions regarding the open carry or unlawful transportation of firearms.

    -With no requirement for vehicle occupancy, the changes made to K.S.A.

    12-16,124(b)(4) allows concealed carry licensees to leave their weapon, loaded or unloaded, in their vehicle. Again, the purpose for preempting city and county regulations was to shield licensees from local firearms violations in the event that they removed their weapons from their person while traveling throughout the state.

    -Cities and counties still have the authority to regulate the open carry of firearms “on one’s person.” These local regulations apply to concealed carry licensees as well as the general public.






    ƒ Posting of certain properties

    -The requirements for “no concealed carry” signage also changed with the passage of HB 2528. In order to bring charges of unlawful concealed carry against a licensee, those properties previously enumerated under

    K.S.A. 75-7c10 (schools, bars, churches, school & professional athletic events, churches, etc.) must now be posted. One exception to this is the provision regarding carrying in or on areas prohibited by Federal law; these areas are under no obligation to post their properties.

    -Also changed with HB 2528, business owners (both public and private) may continue to post their buildings to restrict the concealed carry of firearms, but parking lots are no longer allowed to be posted.

    -Cities and counties may continue to post their buildings, but parks, greenways, etc., are no longer allowed to be posted.

    -Employers, both public and private, may continue to restrict a licensed employee’s ability to carry concealed while they are performing the duties of their employ, but licensed employees are allowed to store their firearm in their private means of conveyance, even if parked on company property.





    ƒ Licensing requirements

    -In light of the fact that under Federal law, certain individuals with convictions for “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” are not allowed to possess a firearm, some change was necessary to our concealed carry laws to bring our law in line with the Federal law. Now, under

    K.S.A 75-7c04(a)(6)(C), any adult conviction or diversion (even if expunged) or any adjudication as a juvenile within the 5 years preceeding application will disqualify an applicant. Outside of that 5 year window, pursuant to K.S.A. 75-7c04(a)(5), any adult conviction or adjudication as a juvenile for a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” as defined by Federal statute 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(33) will disqualify an applicant for licensure. A conviction, under Federal law, will not include a conviction that has been expunged, set aside, pardoned, or a violation for which the person has had their civil rights restored (unless the restoration of civil rights includes a prohibition from the receiving, possessing, etc. of firearms).

    -Additionally, the reporting of involuntary commitment orders, for mental illness or drug or alcohol abuse, was updated to ensure that there are no gaps in time between those reported dating back to July 1, 1998 and now. Essentially, the law now reads any involuntary commitment orders entered going back to July 1, 1998 and any involuntary commitment orders entered in the future must be sent to the KBI database with certain identifying information about the person being ordered to treatment.

    -Finally, as the Child in Need of Care statutory numbering was changed in 2006, the statutory provisions enumerated in K.S.A. 75-7c04(a)(14) were updated to coincide with those 2006 numbering changes.

  4. #4
    Regular Member C-dub's Avatar
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    This is great guys. Thanks.

    Regarding OC in places that sell alcohol for onsite consumption, like an Appleby's or Chili's, what about the 200 foot law? Doesn't that make it difficult to OC in a place like that or has that been changed?

    And since it will be cold while I'm up there what about entering concealed and then taking my coat off and being open? Are there any issues with changing from CC to OC?

    I forgot. What exactly does posted mean? Anything as simple as the gun buster sign or something more specific?

  5. #5
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    Hey C-dub,

    Dealing with open carry there is no 200 ft rule that I know of with drinking establishments. Specifically I have heard that Lawrence, KS has a 200 ft open carry law from bars and I think there has been a previous post on this topic. Just remember KS has no preemption dealing with open carry. So every municipality; city and county has there own weapons laws. Just do your homework and you will be fine.

    Concealed carry has complete preemption so CC laws are uniform across the state but not with open carry.

    You have brought up a great topic that I think has never been discussed going from CC to OC! Kansas has only allowed CC for 3 years so this is a new angle to our gun rights. I believe there would be no problem with the transition your intent I believe is important. So if you have your coat on covering your gun and go into a restaurant and remove your jacket and your now open carrying I think your fine. I can’t find anything that says you can’t.

    Wow I’m going to have to think about the transition from CC to OC for a few days. I like it!

    This is why we need to fight for our OC rights!!

  6. #6
    Regular Member C-dub's Avatar
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    Thanks Marine0300.

    I guess I won't worry so much about the transitioning just yet. I'm more concerned with Lawrence's city code regarding a place that sells alcohol or beer. There is no exception for those having concealed licenses. It appears to me that, although the title says "Bar" that it would apply to any place that sells beer or liquor by the glass. This would include places like Appleby's or Chili's. Am I interpreting this correctly? I'm going to try and look through more of the Kansas stories to see if anyone has any actual experience in places like this. I tried to embolden applicable sections, but it wouldn't work for me.

    14-408 CARRYING WEAPONS IN OR NEAR ANY BAR.
    (A) Definitions
    (1) ”Alcoholic Liquor” means alcohol, spirits, wine, beer and every liquid or solid,
    patented or not, containing alcohol, spirits, wine, or beer, and capable of
    being consumed as a beverage by a human being, but shall not include any
    cereal malt beverage.
    (2) “Cereal Malt Beverage” means any fermented but undistilled liquor brewed
    or made from malt or from a mixture of malt or malt substitute, but does not
    include any such liquor that is more than 3.2 percent alcohol by weight.
    (3) “Close proximity” means property any part of which is within 200 feet, except
    that if any portion of the contiguous area of a park, unimproved lot, parking
    garage or parking lot is within 200 feet then the entire contiguous area of the
    parking lot or parking garage is within close proximity.
    (4) “Dangerous knife” means every knife or straight razor except for:
    (a) An ordinary folding pocket knife with a blade no longer than 4
    CODE OF THE CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
    14-17
    inches in length.
    (b) Knives provided by the drinking establishment for use by patrons for
    the purpose of dining.
    (c) Knives possessed by the employees and owners of the drinking
    establishment, or those contracted by such owners or employees to
    perform work within the drinking establishment, when such knives
    are used within the drinking establishment as tools for food
    preparation, maintenance, or some other business purpose.
    (d) Knives and straight razors possessed by individuals who may
    lawfully carry such items concealed on their person pursuant to
    K.S.A. 21-4201 and amendments thereto.
    (5) “Drinking establishment” means premises where alcoholic liquor is sold by
    the drink and every premises licensed for that purpose.
    (6) “Firearm” means an object having the design or capacity to propel a
    projectile by force of an explosion, gas, or other combustion.
    (7) “Possession” means exercising actual or constructive dominion or control
    over an object.
    (8) “Publicly accessible property” means any public or private street, alley,
    sidewalk, unimproved lot, park, walkway, trail, parking garage, parking lot or
    other property that is accessible to or actually used by members of the
    general public.
    (9) “Within a drinking establishment” means any area on the premises of a
    drinking establishment where alcoholic liquor may be lawfully consumed.
    (B) It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a firearm within a drinking
    establishment or on publicly accessible property in close proximity to the
    premises of any drinking establishment.
    (C) It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a dangerous knife within a
    drinking establishment.
    (D) The provisions of this section concerning the possession of firearms shall
    not apply to:
    (1) Business owners and their employees while they are on the
    premises of their fixed place of business.
    (2) Law enforcement officers or others entitled to carry concealed
    firearms in the locations that they are lawfully authorized to carry such
    firearms.
    (3) Members of the United States Armed Forces or Kansas National
    Guard during or in conjunction with the actual performance of their official
    duties.
    (4) An unloaded firearm within a vehicle so long as the firearm is within
    a container that completely encloses the firearm.
    (5) An unloaded firearm possessed by an individual who does not
    CODE OF THE CITY OF LAWRENCE, KANSAS
    14-18
    contemporaneously possess any ammunition for the firearm contained in
    any ammunition clip, magazine, speed loader, drum or other device that
    allows for the rapid loading of the firearm provided that such firearm is not
    possessed within a drinking establishment.
    (6) Individuals whose residence is within close proximity to the area
    where the firearm is possessed if such firearm is not possessed within a
    drinking establishment.
    (7) Firearms that may not be lawfully possessed. The possession of
    such firearms may be prosecuted under the specific laws rendering their
    possession illegal.
    (8) Firearms that only incidentally pass through an area regulated by
    this section. A firearm incidentally passes through a regulated area if the
    possessor does not voluntarily interrupt his or her continuous travel through
    the regulated area. Pausing on the roadway due to traffic control devices or
    traffic conditions shall not be considered voluntary interruption of travel.
    (9) Firearms possessed while on the premises of a lawfully operating
    firing range or target range with a fixed place of business. (Ord. 7984)
    (E) This section shall be construed to limit the right to possess weapons in the
    areas regulated, and nothing in the section shall be interpreted to grant an
    individual the right to possess a weapon in an area or manner that would be
    unlawful under any other applicable law.
    (F) Any person who is convicted of a violation of this section shall be punished
    as follows: (Ord. 8082)
    (1) On a first offense the person shall be fined in an amount not less
    than $500 or more than $2500, and shall be sentenced to a jail term
    of at least 30 days but not more than one year. 
    (2) On a second offense the person shall be fined in an amount not
    less that $1000 or more than $2500 and shall be sentenced to a jail
    term of at least 90 days but no more than one year.
    (3) On a third or subsequent offense the person shall be fined $2500
    and shall be sentenced to a jail term of at least 180 days but no
    more than one year.
    (Ord. 5516, Art. 4, Ord. 7976)

  7. #7
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    C-dub,

    Please remember in Kansas concealed carry laws trump city ordinances. So if you’re in Lawrence you can carry concealed in, near, and any ware that serves or sells alcohol. (As long as you have a valid CCW permit)

    Have fun in Kansas

    Earl

  8. #8
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    Marine0300 is right, C-Dub, in Kansas because of Teh State-wide Preemption of Concealed Carry Laws, Lawrence City Code has no effect against Kansas Law.

    As the Law is in Kansas, Concealed Carry in a Restaurant that serves Alcohol is fine!

  9. #9
    Regular Member C-dub's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I'm pretty good with the concealed aspect. Every time I visit I consider going open at least once, but it just hasn't worked out for me yet for one reason or another. I'll admit that it's partly psychological too.

    Earl, it might be nice to meet sometime when I'm up there and have lunch. I'm sure if I weren't the only one openly carrying I would be more relaxed.

  10. #10
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I will be passing through the state and only plan on stopping for gas / food / bathroom. I'm a little confused on the OC in vehicles. Can someone fill me in?
    I have a WA, UT & NH concealed license.

  11. #11
    Regular Member C-dub's Avatar
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    I think that as long as Kansas recognizes the license from the state you reside in you are okay, but I'm not 100% sure.

  12. #12
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    C-dub wrote:
    I think that as long as Kansas recognizes the license from the state you reside in you are okay, but I'm not 100% sure.
    I have a WA, UT & NH concealed license & since Kansas DOES NOT recognize any of them can someone answer my question for me?

    I will be passing through the state and only plan on stopping for gas / food / bathroom. I'm a little confused on the OC in vehicles. Do I have to have a KS concealed license to OC in my vehicle? Or can one just have the weapon visible at all times?



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