• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

So much for SA

ghostrider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
imported post

SpringerXDacp wrote:
HankT wrote:
SNIP
Are you saying that a grab is not....a grab, simply because it was a security guard????

If so, that kind of thinking effectively precludes usefullesson-learning.

It wouldn't have mattered who it was in UTOC's case. He was in Condition White. He had no defense against the grab.

HankT's Axiom OnGrabbing and TakingAway My Gun WithoutPermission[sup]©[/sup]:

It is never permissable to grab and take my gun from me without my knowledge and permission. Never.

HAOGTAMGWP[sup]©[/sup] always applies. No exceptions since I am a law abiding citizen.

:lol:LOL

No, I think what's being said is that most who OC will not resist whenuniformed personnel, such as mall ninjas and LE,attempt to remove the pistol from its holster. This is, exponentially, different than a BG grab...don't you think so HTK?
That's what I was thinking, although condition white is condition white.

I don't think I would let a security guard touch my gun. If it isn't a cop, then hands off.
 

JamesIan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
113
Location
Ecorse, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
Michigander wrote:
HankT wrote:
There was alsothe case of an OCDO member (UTOC44-45?) who had his OC'd gungrabbed out of his holster, clean as a whistle, before he knew what was going on, at a retail store by a security guy.
Grabs by security and police happen from time to time. I've been disarmed by ass hole felon cops myself.


Are you saying that a grab is not....a grab, simply because it was a security guard????

If so, that kind of thinking effectively precludes usefullesson-learning.

It wouldn't have mattered who it was in UTOC's case. He was in Condition White. He had no defense against the grab.

HankT's Axiom OnGrabbing and TakingAway My Gun WithoutPermission[suP]©[/suP]:

It is never permissable to grab and take my gun from me without my knowledge and permission. Never.

HAOGTAMGWP[suP]©[/suP] always applies. No exceptions since I am a law abiding citizen.
Your axiom is a pleonasm. It is redundant to say that something is not permissable without your permission.
 

Haman J.T.

New member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,245
Location
, ,
imported post

SpringerXDacp wrote:
HankT wrote:
SNIP
Are you saying that a grab is not....a grab, simply because it was a security guard????

If so, that kind of thinking effectively precludes usefullesson-learning.

It wouldn't have mattered who it was in UTOC's case. He was in Condition White. He had no defense against the grab.

HankT's Axiom OnGrabbing and TakingAway My Gun WithoutPermission[suP]©[/suP]:

It is never permissable to grab and take my gun from me without my knowledge and permission. Never.

HAOGTAMGWP[suP]©[/suP] always applies. No exceptions since I am a law abiding citizen.

:lol:LOL

No, I think what's being said is that most who OC will not resist whenuniformed personnel, such as mall ninjas and LE,attempt to remove the pistol from its holster. This is, exponentially, different than a BG grab...don't you think so HTK?
I can guarantee if someone tried to grab my gun from behind,they would have the full force of my gun hand hitting their jaw as my left hand recovers my gun.Thats the legal thing to do wether it's a LEO or not.If it's a LEO,won't he be supprised!
 

SlowDog

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
424
Location
Redford, Michigan, USA
imported post

freightman360 wrote:
security gaurd grab my gun i grab my back up gun
Security guard grabs ahold of my gun then he his looking into the barrel of my 380. END OF DISCUSSION!:cuss:If I happen to be distracted to the point of little or no SA and someone gets that close to me to grab it I am taking that as a threat to my life and in these situations you have split second. Grab BUG and do what ya gotta do.

My only worry is what will be the after math if some under cover theft prevention PUKE come by you and grabs your primary and you turn and shoot him with BUG. I wonder if there would be charges filed.

I wonder if these idiots ever think of this very fact that they are very very close to being shot. And if I need to use the 380 instead of my 45....he is gonna receive several shots.....just sayin....
 

Haman J.T.

New member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,245
Location
, ,
imported post

SlowDog wrote:
freightman360 wrote:
security gaurd grab my gun i grab my back up gun
Security guard grabs ahold of my gun then he his looking into the barrel of my 380. END OF DISCUSSION!:cuss:If I happen to be distracted to the point of little or no SA and someone gets that close to me to grab it I am taking that as a threat to my life and in these situations you have split second. Grab BUG and do what ya gotta do.

My only worry is what will be the after math if some under cover theft prevention PUKE come by you and grabs your primary and you turn and shoot him with BUG. I wonder if there would be charges filed.

I wonder if these idiots ever think of this very fact that they are very very close to being shot. And if I need to use the 380 instead of my 45....he is gonna receive several shots.....just sayin....
If they're grabbin your gun,THEY are NOT THINKING!
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
imported post

SpringerXDacp wrote:
No, I think what's being said is that most who OC will not resist whenuniformed personnel, such as mall ninjas and LE,attempt to remove the pistol from its holster. This is, exponentially, different than a BG grab...don't you think so HTK?
I place no trust at all in a cop who doesn't understand Terry, which is why I most often don't carry chambered in an area where I worry about the police.

On the other hand, I am basically fearful of the potential consequences of if a mall ninja got my gun. In the case of a security guard going for a grab n assault, I personally would probably draw on him and scream "STOP" to try to stop the attack, then shoot if he kept coming. Whether I had him at gun point or shot him, I would be screaming "CALL 911!!!"

In most cases, a simple, basic level of firearms handling can be inferred by someone being a cop. The same can not be said of security guards. I feel security guard trying to take your gun is nothing less than a life threatening assailant.

I'm not a lawyer, so don't anybody go and take this as sound advice of any sort, but it is my theory on it.
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
imported post

if said mall security guard is not a "peace Officer" then to walk up and grab your weapon is ADW Assault or assault with a deadly weapon and bet your rear I will push prosecution, if he was quick enough to pull it off. I never go anywhere without a backup, often my model 19 smith Wesson 2.5 inch barrel 357 Magnum. If my weapon is grabbed I will consider it a violent encounter PERIOD! Any moron can buy a monkey suit to fake being a security guard. In Detroit the are now raiding homes with tactical vests acting like Detroit Police, this just recently happened again on the west side. I suspect the Dexter Boys might be involved. So how am I to know this monkey wearing a guard uniform is legit? He just committed a felony by grabbing/assaulting me. He would be in a world of hurt. Because I will disarm him with a magnum in his face. I refuse to take chances on him being some psycho using my weapon to slaughter others if I didn't stop the assault on me.

NO security guard has the legal right to just assault someone who is not committing a crime, and even if committing a crime he has limits.
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Venator wrote:
HankT wrote:
Michigander wrote:
HankT wrote:
There was alsothe case of an OCDO member (UTOC44-45?) who had his OC'd gungrabbed out of his holster, clean as a whistle, before he knew what was going on, at a retail store by a security guy.
Grabs by security and police happen from time to time. I've been disarmed by ass hole felon cops myself.


Are you saying that a grab is not....a grab, simply because it was a security guard????

If so, that kind of thinking effectively precludes usefullesson-learning.

It wouldn't have mattered who it was in UTOC's case. He was in Condition White. He had no defense against the grab.

HankT's Axiom OnGrabbing and TakingAway My Gun WithoutPermission[suP]©[/suP]:

It is never permissable to grab and take my gun from me without my knowledge and permission. Never.

HAOGTAMGWP[suP]©[/suP] always applies. No exceptions since I am a law abiding citizen.
What if you are injured (at hospital unconscious)or dead, can we take possession of it then?

Duh-uhh.... yeah, you can take it--without permission. :uhoh:

How does that change the axiom?




Venator wrote:
Depending on the gun I may take it under those circumstances [dead or unconscious].

What's your point?The axiom still applies.

C'mon, all you have to do in your specialezed situation....is just be ethical...have my next of kin come on over and pick the dman gun up.

Why on earth would you take a dead man's gun from him? To steal it for yourself?

Geez.

Other than the situation you point out, for the 99.9% of situations where HAOGTAMGWP[suP]©[/suP] could apply what do you think of the axiom, Venator?
 

Beau

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
672
Location
East of Aurora, Colorado, USA
imported post

This very topic has/is being discussed on INgunowners.com. Yes it is old news. The story sounds suspect.

My thoughts are who cares and how is it relevant?

Has an OC'er been robbed of his firearm?? Probably.

Will it happen again?? Probably.

Just like cars will be stolen, homes broken into or someone being robbed for whatever posession they might have.

I believe that OC is a detterent to the common criminal. I also believe that my belief does not hold true to every criminal. Hell I've seen video of a bad guy trying to steal the firearm of the officer that stopped him.

Be aware. Be safe.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
imported post

HankT wrote:
Are you saying that a grab is not....a grab, simply because it was a security guard????

If so, that kind of thinking effectively precludes usefullesson-learning.

It wouldn't have mattered who it was in UTOC's case. He was in Condition White. He had no defense against the grab.

HankT's Axiom OnGrabbing and TakingAway My Gun WithoutPermission[sup]©[/sup]:

It is never permissable to grab and take my gun from me without my knowledge and permission. Never.

HAOGTAMGWP[sup]©[/sup] always applies. No exceptions since I am a law abiding citizen.
Jumpin' Jeepers in a wheat field! Where do ya get this stuff from Hank? First your "postulate" that is BS and now this new BS supposed axiom!

Venator already showed your new copywritten words of wit offered as an absolute to be.... not valid with the situation of a medical emergency. I'll offer another... if you were to be out of control and threating innocents it most certainly IS permissable to take your gun away from you... whether you give your permission or not.

Something to think about ... leftists have the mindset that they are the one's who everyone else must ask permission from because they, and only they, are the smart folks... all others need "postulates" and "axioms" to live by that are so kindly and compassionately given to the masses by their betters.

Hank? Emphatically stating things you fervently believe in is fine... we all do it. Offering your personal beliefs as if they are copywritten laws of nature just makes what you say not only hilarious but ridiculous.

These copywritten bits of supposed wisdom remind me of the movie "The Longest Yard" where the warden of the prison had his own personal secretary following him around just in case the warden said something pithy... so the secretary could write it down and preserve it for all posterity. Kinda sad really.

Edited to add..... yet another discussion thrown off course and topic... and I helped.... again... sigh...
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
Venator wrote:
HankT wrote:
Michigander wrote:
HankT wrote:
There was alsothe case of an OCDO member (UTOC44-45?) who had his OC'd gungrabbed out of his holster, clean as a whistle, before he knew what was going on, at a retail store by a security guy.
Grabs by security and police happen from time to time. I've been disarmed by ass hole felon cops myself.


Are you saying that a grab is not....a grab, simply because it was a security guard????

If so, that kind of thinking effectively precludes usefullesson-learning.

It wouldn't have mattered who it was in UTOC's case. He was in Condition White. He had no defense against the grab.

HankT's Axiom OnGrabbing and TakingAway My Gun WithoutPermission[suP]©[/suP]:

It is never permissable to grab and take my gun from me without my knowledge and permission. Never.

HAOGTAMGWP[suP]©[/suP] always applies. No exceptions since I am a law abiding citizen.
What if you are injured (at hospital unconscious)or dead, can we take possession of it then?

Duh-uhh.... yeah, you can take it--without permission. :uhoh:

How does that change the axiom?




Venator wrote:
Depending on the gun I may take it under those circumstances [dead or unconscious].

What's your point?The axiom still applies.

C'mon, all you have to do in your specialezed situation....is just be ethical...have my next of kin come on over and pick the dman gun up.

Why on earth would you take a dead man's gun from him? To steal it for yourself?

Geez.

Other than the situation you point out, for the 99.9% of situations where HAOGTAMGWP[suP]©[/suP] could apply what do you think of the axiom, Venator?
It was levity, lighten up Francis.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
imported post

Beau wrote:
This very topic has/is being discussed on INgunowners.com. Yes it is old news. The story sounds suspect.
I officially no longer believe it. The first time I read about the story it was supposedly in Virginia.

It still could happen, and as Hank was so eager to point out, the number of times it ends up happening doesn't mean much. Bottom line is it's rare.
 
Top