Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 53

Thread: HB 52: Failure to carry concealed handgun permit.

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...e?101+sum+HB52

    Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


    Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.

    TFred


  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,201

    Post imported post

    This is a good one and one I can't foresee how even an "anti" would put up much fuss for. I could see how it could be spun, but it would seem pretty easy to un-spin this.

  3. #3
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Post imported post

    I'd be happier to see: §18.2-308 - repealed.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Yes... there is not having a permit, and there is not having your permit on your person.

    The Drivers License analogy goes a long way here.

    The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

    "In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

    TFred


  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Norfolk, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,000

    Post imported post

    As would we all Wylde but as rights have been slowly eroded, the path to recover them will just as slow. It takes time to normalize what is right. It's no different than the antis taking their time to normalize illegal restrictions.

    Public perception is a beast of a thing to adjust. It takes time.

  6. #6
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Post imported post

    darthmord wrote:
    As would we all Wylde but as rights have been slowly eroded, the path to recover them will just as slow.
    If you're gonna dream, dream big.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,156

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:


    The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

    "In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

    TFred
    You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.

  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    nova wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

    "In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

    TFred
    You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
    This isn't the place to open the Pandora's Box of whether concealed carry is covered by the 2nd Amendment... at least for now it is not, which is the law of the land.

    This bill is not about having permission to exercise a constitutional right, but suffering the consequence of not being "permitted" for simply not carrying the permit in your pocket.

    TFred


  9. #9
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:
    nova wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

    "In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

    TFred
    You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
    This isn't the place to open the Pandora's Box of whether concealed carry is covered by the 2nd Amendment... at least for now it is not, which is the law of the land.

    This bill is not about having permission to exercise a constitutional right, but suffering the consequence of not being "permitted" for simply not carrying the permit in your pocket.

    TFred
    What he said.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  10. #10
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,461

    Post imported post

    jmelvin wrote:
    This is a good one and one I can't foresee how even an "anti" would put up much fuss for. I could see how it could be spun, but it would seem pretty easy to un-spin this.
    They will find something to complain about. Even it is makes perfect sense, they will just say it increases the odds of a concealed carrier going crazy and killing all the babies.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    buster81 wrote:
    jmelvin wrote:
    This is a good one and one I can't foresee how even an "anti" would put up much fuss for. I could see how it could be spun, but it would seem pretty easy to un-spin this.
    They will find something to complain about. Even it is makes perfect sense, they will just say it increases the odds of a concealed carrier going crazy and killing all the babies.
    It may be effective to just respond with "they don't put you in jail if you drive your car having forgotten your wallet..." which is something that I would bet a very good number of all kinds of citizens have done at one point or another.

    TFred


  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,156

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:
    nova wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

    "In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

    TFred
    You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
    This isn't the place to open the Pandora's Box of whether concealed carry is covered by the 2nd Amendment... at least for now it is not, which is the law of the land.

    This bill is not about having permission to exercise a constitutional right, but suffering the consequence of not being "permitted" for simply not carrying the permit in your pocket.

    TFred
    EDIT: you're right this isn't the place to start arguing about CC.
    _____

    I think it's a bad idea to equate carry permits with drivers licenses. Why stop there? Why not require gun registration? We already register our vehicles!!

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    ., ,
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    .

  14. #14
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664

    Post imported post

    Bill in VA wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    ... Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.

    TFred
    Can you provide a cite wherein failure to carry an issued permit is a felony, please? I've looked all through 18.2-308 and don't see anywhere that a penalty for failure to carry an issued permit is mentioned, let alone that it's a felony. I'm not saying it's not there, just saying I can't find it and if it's in there, don't want to miss it.

    About the closest I can find in 18.2-308 is section H which reads, in part, "...The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification... upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "

    TIA

    Failure to carry your permit, currently, can and has been prosecuted the same as carrying a concealed weapon. Just as if you were not a permit holder. HB-52 will decriminalize it.
    ##opencite##
    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation [...], he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.
    ##endcite##

    You looked through 18.2-308, but you didn't see anything mentioning failure to display the permit?
    ##opencite##
    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:
    ...
    D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. [...]
    ...

    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun [...]. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. [...]
    ##endcite##
    CHPs provide exemption from the law, so if you do not follow all requirements you are not longer exempt, and therefor guilty of Carrying a Concealed Weapon.

    I hope this is not a surprise to anyone! It is an important thing to be aware of if you CC. When you realize you don't have your wallet immediately OC till you get it otherwise it is STILL A CRIME. Many CHP safety classes explain this.

    Lets hope HB-52 wins.

    You can search the forums and find cases if you want but this is common knowledge stuff.

    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  15. #15
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Thanks simmonsjoe, that's a good summary. As it is currently written, if you forget a piece of paper, then you do not have a CHP. Do that twice and you are a felon, and you get all the nasty baggage that comes along with that.

    User has mentioned in previous posts that judges are sometimes not hard-nosed about it, realizing how ridiculous the situation is, and I have heard that there may have been a recent case that essentially decriminalized not carrying the permit on your person.

    However, it's not wise to leave these sorts of life-altering decisions up to the whims of judges. This needs to be changed in the code.

    TFred

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    ., ,
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    .

  17. #17
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Bill in VA wrote:
    Joe, you're not showing where it says that a CHP holder who fails to carry his CHP while carrying is guilty of a felony.

    I'm sure there havebeen instances whereCHP holders carrying their weapons withoutalso carrying theirCHPs may have been prosecuted the same as a non-CHP holder carrying concealed.

    Reading 18.2-308 it's crystal clear that carrying a concealed weapon without having a permit is a Class I misdemeanor for a first offense, and a felony for subsequent offenses. As you cited, having a CHP is an affirmative defense to carrying a concealed handgun. Likewise, I see that a person who is carrying a concealed handgun must show his CHP and a goverment-issued photo ID to alaw enforcement officer upon demand. However, I do not seewhere in 18.2-308 it says that failure of a CHP-holder to produce a CHP is felony. I would like to know where the laws says this.
    That's the point, it doesn't say it. The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty. The law says in order to not be guilty of the crime of "carrying a concealed weapon", you must have a permit, and then later it says you must show that permit upon demand.

    In the absence of meeting these two requirements, the only penalty you can be charged with is the penalty of "carrying a concealed weapon", which is a misdemeanor the first time, and a felony the second.

    Again, the Driver's License analogy goes a long way here. It is a crime to drive without having been issued a Driver's License. It is an administrative penalty to drive without possessing your Driver's License. But in the case of the Driver's License, these two penalties are clearly defined in the law.

    TFred

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,315

    Post imported post

    Actually this whole issue is manufactured. A LEO can simply look you up with a radio call and see if you have a permit, even if you do not have it on you. Heck if he has a car computer it will tell him you have one if he runs your name. So citing a person for not actually having it in their possession is harassment in my view, even though the law current makes this a crime.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...e?101+sum+HB52

    Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


    Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
    um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?

  20. #20
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    It should be a no-brainer to get passed then.

    And yes, the point is to prevent the potential for harassment. Why give the LEOs an option?

    If it's not an issue, why do they spell it out for Driver's Licenses?

    TFred


  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    ., ,
    Posts
    276

    Post imported post

    .

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Bill in VA wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    ...The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty.
    Not trying to be argumentative here, Fred, but if the law doesn't say it is unlawful to not carry your CHP then there's no lawful way to charge the defendant with a crime, let alone a felony.

    Using your analogy of a licensed driver ticketed for nothaving hisOL in his possesion,ifa police officer did charge a CHP holderwith unlawful carry of a concealed handgun because said CHP holder failed to carry his CHP, producing thedocument in question (OL or CHP) results in a judgement of "complied with law."

    Just sayin'...
    Didn't you read simmonsjoe's post? Paragraph H of 18.2-308 requires the CHP holder to present the permit to a LEO upon demand. Therefore it is against the law to not do so.

    And your example proves my point. For Driver's Licenses, there is a specific section of code that states, in my paraphrase, if you don't have your license on your person, you must pay a small fine, but if you can show the court that you had one at the time you were cited, you don't have to. It's codified. That is all this bill does.

    For the life of me I can't figure out why there is resistance here. The code is now ambiguous at the very best. This bill clears it up and eliminates any possibility that a LEO or a judge with an anti-CHP chip on their shoulder can put you in a lot of trouble.

    TFred

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Virginia Beach, VA, ,
    Posts
    46

    Post imported post

    TFred wrote:
    Bill in VA wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    ...The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty.
    Not trying to be argumentative here, Fred, but if the law doesn't say it is unlawful to not carry your CHP then there's no lawful way to charge the defendant with a crime, let alone a felony.

    Using your analogy of a licensed driver ticketed for nothaving hisOL in his possesion,ifa police officer did charge a CHP holderwith unlawful carry of a concealed handgun because said CHP holder failed to carry his CHP, producing thedocument in question (OL or CHP) results in a judgement of "complied with law."

    Just sayin'...
    Didn't you read simmonsjoe's post? Paragraph H of 18.2-308 requires the CHP holder to present the permit to a LEO upon demand. Therefore it is against the law to not do so.

    And your example proves my point. For Driver's Licenses, there is a specific section of code that states, in my paraphrase, if you don't have your license on your person, you must pay a small fine, but if you can show the court that you had one at the time you were cited, you don't have to. It's codified. That is all this bill does.

    For the life of me I can't figure out why there is resistance here. The code is now ambiguous at the very best. This bill clears it up and eliminates any possibility that a LEO or a judge with an anti-CHP chip on their shoulder can put you in a lot of trouble.

    TFred
    Yeah, while laws are written things are legal until specified otherwise I believe. I would think that since the law states you must present the permit upon being asked or suffer the consequences. As it stands now, whether you have one and just left it at home, or don't have one at all amounts to the same thing in the eyes of the current law and you could be charged with the penalty.

    The way I read it is, failure to present for any reason, could land you with a felony the second time. I think the new bill is good clarification.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519

    Post imported post

    Mike wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...e?101+sum+HB52

    Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


    Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
    um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
    It seems you haven't missed anything, Mike.

    Sub H currently lacks a penalty, just as Sub J3 currently lacks a penalty.

    Any case law on this subsection? I wonder who requested this bill?

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Repeater wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...e?101+sum+HB52

    Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


    Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
    um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
    It seems you haven't missed anything, Mike.

    Sub H currently lacks a penalty, just as Sub J3 currently lacks a penalty.

    Any case law on this subsection? I wonder who requested this bill?
    If J3 has no penalty, then why are we working so hard to repeal it? Why don't we all just ignore it?

    I believe the penalty for both H and J3 is the same. You will be charged with Carrying a Concealed Weapon. Carrying a concealed weapon is an illegal act, and the permit grants you limited immunity from that under the conditions specified in the law. H says you must display a permit upon demand, and J3 says that your immunity does not apply in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

    TFred


Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •