• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

HB 52: Failure to carry concealed handgun permit.

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.

TFred
 

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
imported post

This is a good one and one I can't foresee how even an "anti" would put up much fuss for. I could see how it could be spun, but it would seem pretty easy to un-spin this.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

Yes... there is not having a permit, and there is not having your permit on your person.

The Drivers License analogy goes a long way here.

The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

"In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

TFred
 

darthmord

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Messages
998
Location
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
imported post

As would we all Wylde but as rights have been slowly eroded, the path to recover them will just as slow. It takes time to normalize what is right. It's no different than the antis taking their time to normalize illegal restrictions.

Public perception is a beast of a thing to adjust. It takes time.
 

nova

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
3,149
Location
US
imported post

TFred wrote:
The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

"In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

TFred
You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

nova wrote:
TFred wrote:
The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

"In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

TFred
You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
This isn't the place to open the Pandora's Box of whether concealed carry is covered by the 2nd Amendment... at least for now it is not, which is the law of the land.

This bill is not about having permission to exercise a constitutional right, but suffering the consequence of not being "permitted" for simply not carrying the permit in your pocket.

TFred
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
imported post

TFred wrote:
nova wrote:
TFred wrote:
The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

"In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

TFred
You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
This isn't the place to open the Pandora's Box of whether concealed carry is covered by the 2nd Amendment... at least for now it is not, which is the law of the land.

This bill is not about having permission to exercise a constitutional right, but suffering the consequence of not being "permitted" for simply not carrying the permit in your pocket.

TFred
What he said.
 

buster81

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
1,461
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
imported post

jmelvin wrote:
This is a good one and one I can't foresee how even an "anti" would put up much fuss for. I could see how it could be spun, but it would seem pretty easy to un-spin this.
They will find something to complain about. Even it is makes perfect sense, they will just say it increases the odds of a concealed carrier going crazy and killing all the babies.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

buster81 wrote:
jmelvin wrote:
This is a good one and one I can't foresee how even an "anti" would put up much fuss for. I could see how it could be spun, but it would seem pretty easy to un-spin this.
They will find something to complain about. Even it is makes perfect sense, they will just say it increases the odds of a concealed carrier going crazy and killing all the babies.
It may be effective to just respond with "they don't put you in jail if you drive your car having forgotten your wallet..." which is something that I would bet a very good number of all kinds of citizens have done at one point or another.

TFred
 

nova

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
3,149
Location
US
imported post

TFred wrote:
nova wrote:
TFred wrote:
The penalty for driving, or carrying concealed is (or should be) greater for doing so without the license, than for simply not having it on your person.

"In this age of instant communication, it is crazy to make a felon out of someone who forgets a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry."

TFred
You're right. We shouldn't need a piece of paper to exercise a constitutional right.
This isn't the place to open the Pandora's Box of whether concealed carry is covered by the 2nd Amendment... at least for now it is not, which is the law of the land.

This bill is not about having permission to exercise a constitutional right, but suffering the consequence of not being "permitted" for simply not carrying the permit in your pocket.

TFred
EDIT: you're right this isn't the place to start arguing about CC.
_____

I think it's a bad idea to equate carry permits with drivers licenses. Why stop there? Why not require gun registration? We already register our vehicles!! :banghead::banghead:
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
imported post

Bill in VA wrote:
TFred wrote:
... Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.

TFred

Can you provide a cite wherein failure to carry an issued permit is a felony, please? I've looked all through 18.2-308 and don't see anywhere that a penalty for failure to carry an issued permit is mentioned, let alone that it's a felony. I'm not saying it's not there, just saying I can't find it and if it's in there, don't want to miss it.

About the closest I can find in 18.2-308 is section H which reads, in part, "...The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification... upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. "

TIA
Failure to carry your permit, currently, can and has been prosecuted the same as carrying a concealed weapon. Just as if you were not a permit holder. HB-52 will decriminalize it.
##opencite##
§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation [...], he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.
##endcite##

You looked through 18.2-308, but you didn't see anything mentioning failure to display the permit?
##opencite##
Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:
...
D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. [...]
...

H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun [...]. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer. [...]
##endcite##
CHPs provide exemption from the law, so if you do not follow all requirements you are not longer exempt, and therefor guilty of Carrying a Concealed Weapon.

I hope this is not a surprise to anyone! It is an important thing to be aware of if you CC. When you realize you don't have your wallet immediately OC till you get it otherwise it is STILL A CRIME. Many CHP safety classes explain this.

Lets hope HB-52 wins.

You can search the forums and find cases if you want but this is common knowledge stuff.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

Thanks simmonsjoe, that's a good summary. As it is currently written, if you forget a piece of paper, then you do not have a CHP. Do that twice and you are a felon, and you get all the nasty baggage that comes along with that.

User has mentioned in previous posts that judges are sometimes not hard-nosed about it, realizing how ridiculous the situation is, and I have heard that there may have been a recent case that essentially decriminalized not carrying the permit on your person.

However, it's not wise to leave these sorts of life-altering decisions up to the whims of judges. This needs to be changed in the code.

TFred
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

Bill in VA wrote:
Joe, you're not showing where it says that a CHP holder who fails to carry his CHP while carrying is guilty of a felony.

I'm sure there havebeen instances whereCHP holders carrying their weapons withoutalso carrying theirCHPs may have been prosecuted the same as a non-CHP holder carrying concealed.

Reading 18.2-308 it's crystal clear that carrying a concealed weapon without having a permit is a Class I misdemeanor for a first offense, and a felony for subsequent offenses. As you cited, having a CHP is an affirmative defense to carrying a concealed handgun. Likewise, I see that a person who is carrying a concealed handgun must show his CHP and a goverment-issued photo ID to alaw enforcement officer upon demand. However, I do not seewhere in 18.2-308 it says that failure of a CHP-holder to produce a CHP is felony. I would like to know where the laws says this.
That's the point, it doesn't say it. The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty. The law says in order to not be guilty of the crime of "carrying a concealed weapon", you must have a permit, and then later it says you must show that permit upon demand.

In the absence of meeting these two requirements, the only penalty you can be charged with is the penalty of "carrying a concealed weapon", which is a misdemeanor the first time, and a felony the second.

Again, the Driver's License analogy goes a long way here. It is a crime to drive without having been issued a Driver's License. It is an administrative penalty to drive without possessing your Driver's License. But in the case of the Driver's License, these two penalties are clearly defined in the law.

TFred
 

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Actually this whole issue is manufactured. A LEO can simply look you up with a radio call and see if you have a permit, even if you do not have it on you. Heck if he has a car computer it will tell him you have one if he runs your name. So citing a person for not actually having it in their possession is harassment in my view, even though the law current makes this a crime.

Regards
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
imported post

TFred wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

It should be a no-brainer to get passed then.

And yes, the point is to prevent the potential for harassment. Why give the LEOs an option?

If it's not an issue, why do they spell it out for Driver's Licenses?

TFred
 
Top