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HB 52: Failure to carry concealed handgun permit.

TFred

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Bill in VA wrote:
TFred wrote:
...The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty.
Not trying to be argumentative here, Fred, but if the law doesn't say it is unlawful to not carry your CHP then there's no lawful way to charge the defendant with a crime, let alone a felony.

Using your analogy of a licensed driver ticketed for nothaving hisOL in his possesion,if a police officer did charge a CHP holderwith unlawful carry of a concealed handgun because said CHP holder failed to carry his CHP, producing thedocument in question (OL or CHP) results in a judgement of "complied with law."

Just sayin'...
Didn't you read simmonsjoe's post? Paragraph H of 18.2-308 requires the CHP holder to present the permit to a LEO upon demand. Therefore it is against the law to not do so.

And your example proves my point. For Driver's Licenses, there is a specific section of code that states, in my paraphrase, if you don't have your license on your person, you must pay a small fine, but if you can show the court that you had one at the time you were cited, you don't have to. It's codified. That is all this bill does.

For the life of me I can't figure out why there is resistance here. The code is now ambiguous at the very best. This bill clears it up and eliminates any possibility that a LEO or a judge with an anti-CHP chip on their shoulder can put you in a lot of trouble.

TFred
 

ForceofWill

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TFred wrote:
Bill in VA wrote:
TFred wrote:
...The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty.
Not trying to be argumentative here, Fred, but if the law doesn't say it is unlawful to not carry your CHP then there's no lawful way to charge the defendant with a crime, let alone a felony.

Using your analogy of a licensed driver ticketed for nothaving hisOL in his possesion,if a police officer did charge a CHP holderwith unlawful carry of a concealed handgun because said CHP holder failed to carry his CHP, producing thedocument in question (OL or CHP) results in a judgement of "complied with law."

Just sayin'...
Didn't you read simmonsjoe's post? Paragraph H of 18.2-308 requires the CHP holder to present the permit to a LEO upon demand. Therefore it is against the law to not do so.

And your example proves my point. For Driver's Licenses, there is a specific section of code that states, in my paraphrase, if you don't have your license on your person, you must pay a small fine, but if you can show the court that you had one at the time you were cited, you don't have to. It's codified. That is all this bill does.

For the life of me I can't figure out why there is resistance here. The code is now ambiguous at the very best. This bill clears it up and eliminates any possibility that a LEO or a judge with an anti-CHP chip on their shoulder can put you in a lot of trouble.

TFred

Yeah, while laws are written things are legal until specified otherwise I believe. I would think that since the law states you must present the permit upon being asked or suffer the consequences. As it stands now, whether you have one and just left it at home, or don't have one at all amounts to the same thing in the eyes of the current law and you could be charged with the penalty.

The way I read it is, failure to present for any reason, could land you with a felony the second time. I think the new bill is good clarification.
 

Repeater

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Mike wrote:
TFred wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
It seems you haven't missed anything, Mike.

Sub H currently lacks a penalty, just as Sub J3 currently lacks a penalty.

Any case law on this subsection? I wonder who requested this bill?
 

TFred

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Repeater wrote:
Mike wrote:
TFred wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
It seems you haven't missed anything, Mike.

Sub H currently lacks a penalty, just as Sub J3 currently lacks a penalty.

Any case law on this subsection? I wonder who requested this bill?
If J3 has no penalty, then why are we working so hard to repeal it? Why don't we all just ignore it?

I believe the penalty for both H and J3 is the same. You will be charged with Carrying a Concealed Weapon. Carrying a concealed weapon is an illegal act, and the permit grants you limited immunity from that under the conditions specified in the law. H says you must display a permit upon demand, and J3 says that your immunity does not apply in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

TFred
 

TFred

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Bill in VA wrote:
Yes, Fred, I did read it. You and Joe and some of the others seem to think that not having a permit is the same thing as not producing a permit. Nowhere in 18.2-308 is there anything that says failure to produce a CHP by apermitee is a felony. Nowhere.It's not in there. Repeater and Mike both correctly pointed out the same thing as well: there is no penalty and there is no stipulation that failure of a CHPholder to produce a CHP is a crime. The crime is "carrying concealed without having a permit"; it is not "carrying concealed without having your issued permit on you." They are two different things. Moreover, as I wrote earlier, having aduly issued CHP is an affirmative defense to carrying a conealed handgun;even if a CHP-holder is charged with unlicensed concealed-carry, producing the permit is the same as producing an OL when charged with driving without an OL: courts return a verdict of "complied with law." QED, no felony.
Are you saying you would rather leave this clarification out of the law, so that people who forget to put a piece of paper in their pocket may be arrested, have to hire a lawyer, go to trial, and be acquitted, instead of clearly providing an easy administrative solution? That may be your idea of fun, but I'll pass.

The harder you protest, the more you actually support this bill. Because, yet once again... the OL process you describe is codified. That is why it happens that way. The CHP law (without this bill's change) does not provide for that remedy. It is that exact remedy that this bill provides. If you think the OL process is great, then you should be jumping up and down in support of this bill, which does the exact same thing.

There is no crime called "Carrying concealed without a permit." The crime is "Carrying a concealed weapon.*" The permit grants you a limited exception to that law, in that you may carry a concealed handgun, in accordance with all the requirements listed in the law. Those requirements include such items as: you must display your permit when it is demanded by LEOs, and that you may not do so inside a restaurant that serves alcohol.

We're not trying to get to Mars here folks... ;)

TFred

* The exact name of the law is: "§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry."
 

Hawkflyer

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This is better than Avatar
popcorn.gif
 

Repeater

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TFred wrote:
Bill in VA wrote:
Yes, Fred, I did read it. You and Joe and some of the others seem to think that not having a permit is the same thing as not producing a permit. Nowhere in 18.2-308 is there anything that says failure to produce a CHP by apermitee is a felony. Nowhere.It's not in there. Repeater and Mike both correctly pointed out the same thing as well: there is no penalty and there is no stipulation that failure of a CHPholder to produce a CHP is a crime. The crime is "carrying concealed without having a permit"; it is not "carrying concealed without having your issued permit on you." They are two different things. Moreover, as I wrote earlier, having aduly issued CHP is an affirmative defense to carrying a conealed handgun;even if a CHP-holder is charged with unlicensed concealed-carry, producing the permit is the same as producing an OL when charged with driving without an OL: courts return a verdict of "complied with law." QED, no felony.
Are you saying you would rather leave this clarification out of the law, so that people who forget to put a piece of paper in their pocket may be arrested, have to hire a lawyer, go to trial, and be acquitted, instead of clearly providing an easy administrative solution? That may be your idea of fun, but I'll pass.


TFred

* The exact name of the law is: "§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry."
All of of you seem to have overlooked the irony of subsection P1. That applies to non-residents who want to obtain a Virginia CHP. That also has a permit carry requirement; however it does not also provide a civil penalty for its violation. The courts will see those two subsections as being deliberately different and will construe them accordingly.
 

Repeater

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TFred wrote:
Repeater wrote:
Mike wrote:
TFred wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
It seems you haven't missed anything, Mike.

Sub H currently lacks a penalty, just as Sub J3 currently lacks a penalty.

Any case law on this subsection? I wonder who requested this bill?
If J3 has no penalty, then why are we working so hard to repeal it? Why don't we all just ignore it?
Well, that's an option.
 

Repeater

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TFred wrote:
Repeater wrote:
Mike wrote:
TFred wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
It seems you haven't missed anything, Mike.

Sub H currently lacks a penalty, just as Sub J3 currently lacks a penalty.

Any case law on this subsection? I wonder who requested this bill?
I believe the penalty for both H and J3 is the same. You will be charged with Carrying a Concealed Weapon. Carrying a concealed weapon is an illegal act, and the permit grants you limited immunity from that under the conditions specified in the law. H says you must display a permit upon demand, and J3 says that your immunity does not apply in a restaurant that serves alcohol.

TFred
Here's the problem: you will now be charged with violating both subsection A and subsection H as the lesser-included offense, so it doesn't solve anything.

A CHP provides an affirmative defense, nothing more.

A better alternative is amending 18.2-308 to recognize that permit holders are registered with VCIN, in accordance with subsection K [The State Police shall enter the permittee's name and description in the Virginia Criminal Information Network so that the permit's existence and current status will be made known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes.], and that either presentation of a CHP or Virginia DL is sufficient, then exempting permittees from subsection A altogether.
 

TFred

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Repeater wrote:
A CHP provides an affirmative defense, nothing more.
I really don't know what you are talking about. An affirmative defense, as I understand it, is what you may use in your trial to defend against the crime you have been charged with.

If your statement were true, then everyone who ever carries a concealed handgun would be subject to arrest and trial, even though they carry a valid CHP.

TFred
 

Repeater

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TFred wrote:
Repeater wrote:
A CHP provides an affirmative defense, nothing more.
I really don't know what you are talking about. An affirmative defense, as I understand it, is what you may use in your trial to defend against the crime you have been charged with.

If your statement were true, then everyone who ever carries a concealed handgun would be subject to arrest and trial, even though they carry a valid CHP.

TFred
Well, that's correct:

B. Carrying a Concealed Handgun Is a Crime in Virginia.

The United States argues that Virginia's concealed handgun law, Va.Code Ann. § 18.2-308(A) (2005), makes the carrying of a handgun a crime and that the statutory provision that allows the carrying of a concealed weapon with a permit (§ 18.2-308(D)) provides an affirmative defense to that crime.

The Supreme Court of Virginia never has addressed this issue.
-- United States v. Morton, 400 F.Supp.2d 871, 877 (E.D. Va. 2005).

The court then went on to find that under Virginia law, citizens charged with carrying a concealed handgun have the burden of proving, as an affirmative defense, facts that demonstrate the possession of a permit or the protection of an enumerated exemption, accepting the view of the federal government.
 

Repeater

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This is from a Roanoke street cop with 10 years of experience:

Concealed Weapons

Ask a Cop in my Email:
Subject: Concealed Carry License
Message: Say a traffic stop, is it wise to show your CCW License along with your driver's license and proof of insurance? Or better to just produce the documents requested ?(I don't drink, so it won't be a DUI.)

I read somewhere it would reassure the officer that he is not dealing with a felon.

Aside, I am a member of the Class of 1962 at Va Tech. Roanoke has certainly changed since I passed through. I think I found you through Lawdog.​
I wish this is something they covered when issuing Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permits. Although I guess in Virginia it's technically a Carry Concealed Handgun but the common acronym around the country seems to be CCW.

Anyway, in a state like VA there are a lot of guns, legally, and we do run into them occasionally. I know the politicians would like to hear they cause problems but they don't. It's very rare to come across someone legally carrying a concealed gun. Once in a while a thug without a record is doing it but it's short lived since they usually disqualify themselves with a criminal record pretty quickly.

One of the few times that I do run into legal CCW's is on traffic stops or car accidents. This is one of the few times that normally law abiding folks end up coming into contact with law enforcement.

Here's how most stops for traffic infractions happen. I take off after a car and I'll call it in to dispatch so they know where I am.

Me: "RoaVaPD traffic stop." Activate blue lights and start the stop.

Dispatch acknowledges: "RoaVaPD traffic stop."

"RoaVaPD traffic stop Mason Mill at 13th St Northeast on Oh-Nine Virginia Alpha Bravo Charlie 1-2-3-4, grey Toyota Carolla, one occupant."

The car stops and I walk up. At this point dispatch might might run the tag and let me know if it's stolen or the owner is suspended.

I'll make contact with the driver and request their license and registration and inform them why I stopped them. When I return to my car I'll use my computer to check the car and the driver and for their DMV record and see if they are wanted.

When we do a DMV check the computer automatically checks VCIN. That's the Virginia Criminal Information Network and we pronounce it "Vee-Sin." VCIN contains records for, among other things, stolen cars, the Virginia Sex Offender Registry, and the CCW files. If whoever I'm running (the driver) has a CCW I'll get a response with all their information (name, address, date of birth, height, weight, eye color, hair color, when the permit expires, and the court that issued it.)

At this point I usually have a short out of body experience as I involuntarily shudder from being so close to a gun I didn't know about. Rationally I know that the holder is a law abiding citizen who has been through a background check. But the paranoid cop in me wonders why the driver didn't tell me. Are they planning on using the gun when I return with a ticket? Some people don't act rationally when we issue them a traffic summons.

If you have a CCW and you get stopped here's what I would prefer, and I think most cops would agree.

Get as far on the shoulder or off the road as you safely can. At night turn on your dome light. Roll down all four windows if you have power windows. Turn the engine off and place your hands on your steering wheel. Don't start digging around for your registration card, I can't tell if you are stashing a gun or getting one out. When I approach tell me you have a CCW and tell me where the gun is. Even if you aren't carrying I won't know that when I get the computer return so just tell me.

Me: "I'm Officer Paranoid with the Roanoke Police Department, the reason I stopped you tonight is I saw you roll through that stop sign back there, can I see your license and registration please?"

You, before you take your hands off the wheel: "Yes, officer I have a concealed handgun permit and my gun is on my right hip/in my backpack on the passenger seat/in the trunk/at home I'm not carrying it tonight."

If you are standing on the side of the road or in a parking lot after a car crash it's still the same. I'll walk up and ask each of the drivers what happened and return to my car with all the documentation. When you hand me your stuff, before I go to my car, ask to speak to me privately. Discretely tell me you have the CCW and where the gun is.

If you are a passenger in a car I won't know unless I run you. You can inform me upfront when I talk to the driver as a matter of courtesy. If for some reason I get around to checking the passengers and discover the CCW from the computer I'll have the same reaction I mentioned above.

If you go through a DWI or other checkpoint have your documents ready before reaching the officer. As you hand the officer your license, registration, insurance and CCW permit tell them where your gun is, even if it's just at home.

We often get lookouts for cars leaving the scene of crimes or suspicious activity. We'll stop cars or people who match that description and identify them and attempt to discover if they are one and the same with what was involved in the incident. You may be stopped as a purely investigative stop to identify you and see if you were involved with a crime because your car description is the same. If you didn't just rob the bank or burglarize a business etc you have nothing to worry about and will be released quickly. You may not know why we are stopping you so just be upfront about the CCW and where the gun is, even if it's just at home.

Depending on whether I'm alone or why I stopped you or my level of paranoia I may ask for the gun. I will return it when our contact is over. Some over zealous rookie may take your rounds out or return the gun with the magazine removed. Sorry about that. I won't though.

Most cops, especially when you get away from major metropolitan areas, are hunters. Many have military backgrounds, and many have their own personal firearms. Personally I'm very glad for CCW's and I had one before I was a cop. I'm not going to bust your chops for having it. I'm a bit of a gun nut myself. In fact I've used my discretion on several traffic stops and gave a verbal warning rather than a ticket because I was grateful for the driver informing me up front and then chatting about guns with me while I admired their carry handgun.

My training in the academy about legal guns was pretty lacking. I suspect most cops are very poorly trained on legal guns. Most of what I know is self taught. I've heard nightmares (not around here) about cops who order CCW's out of cars at gunpoint and handcuff and disarm them during the stop just because they identified themselves as legally armed. I think that's horrific and most cops probably agree with me. That's the response for someone who just committed a felony but most cops are so poorly trained about legal guns they don't know anything except high risk disarming. Keep in mind though if I think you match the description for a burglary suspect who just left the scene of the crime you may get a high risk disarming. I'll at least explain why when the dust settles. But you shouldn't get that treatment just because you are a legal CCW.

If you run into one of these cops just comply with everything they tell you to do. Arguing with us on the side of the road will never get you anything and usually tends to escalate the situation even more. If you are treated heavy handed by a poorly trained cop just cooperate. When it's over you can file an official complaint with the department. If you believe that your civil rights were violated then talk to an attorney. Your recourse is after the stop not during it. Always cooperate to avoid escalating the problem.
 

Repeater

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The Roanoke cop later posted this:

Open Carry

Ask a Cop in my email:
My roommate just forwarded me your thoughts on what CCW holders should do during a traffic stop (because I carry on a regular basis and just got a traffic ticket and he was interested in how that went and couldn't believe that while I DID tell the officer, I wasn't compelled by law in VA to tell the officer). In any case, I found it to be interesting and exactly what I would expect/like to hear from a LEO.

That said, what are your thoughts on lawful open carry? Agree or disagree, I'm just curious what your thoughts are as a cop. I have a good friend who is a cop, but in Newport News and he said that while he knows it's legal, in the areas he patrols, he'd likely crap his pants if someone was open carrying for any reason other than something bad...Now up here, I carry openly or concealed depending on the situation and while I get some looks, not near as many as people would think. I'm convinced that 90% don't even notice that I have a .45 on my waist.

Thanks for your time and your service as a cop.​
Open carry is legal in Virginia. I haven't seen much of it. There are restrictions on where you can possess firearms in Virginia, open or concealed, you should know these.

My reaction while on duty would be based on the context. In the high crime, high drug areas where I work, if I saw someone open carrying a gun I would stop and identify them. We have too many shots fired calls in some areas to ignore anyone with a gun.

If I saw some guy planting a tree in his yard, or eating dinner in a restaurant while open carrying I wouldn't blink.

I think open carry can help demystify some of the negative perceptions people have of guns. Most of the people around us when we are carry concealed have no idea they are being protected. They also don't realize there's a gun there and it's not just "going off" and killing everyone. If they see it when you open carry they will realize that most gun owners aren't mass murderers.

Tactically though I don't like open carry. If you walk into 7-11 the guy standing in line may be planning on robbing the place. With you there he knows he needs to shoot you first and remove you from the equation. He's got the drop on you and surprise is on his side. Or maybe he wants to disarm you. Even with Level 3 retention holsters (lots of safeties in the holster to hold onto the gun) some cops get disarmed every year, there's just no way to guarantee not being disarmed. Concealed carry is much safer in this regard. If you do it right, nobody knows you have it. You have the element of surprise on your side if anything breaks sideways on you.

In closing, be mindful of your surroundings when you do open carry. Some cops may be very curious about you, especially depending on where you are. Watch your back in places with a high likelihood of being robbed.
 

KBCraig

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Bill in VA wrote:
TFred wrote:
...The act of "not carrying your permit" is not listed with any particular (lesser) penalty.
Not trying to be argumentative here, Fred, but if the law doesn't say it is unlawful to not carry your CHP then there's no lawful way to charge the defendant with a crime, let alone a felony.
Yeah, we all know that no one has ever been arrested, charged, and even convicted of something that isn't a violation of the law.

Right?
 

simmonsjoe

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Mike wrote:
TFred wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+sum+HB52

Failure to carry concealed handgun permit. Provides that failure to produce, upon demand of a law-enforcement officer, a concealed handgun permit and a government-issued photo identification while carrying a concealed handgun is punishable by a $25 civil penalty. A court may waive this penalty if the person presents a valid concealed handgun permit and government-issued photo identification to the court.


Hopefully, it will soon no longer be a felony to forget a piece of paper twice in a lifetime of lawful concealed carry.
um, I am unaware of any penalty being assessed for failure to have the permit on your person - did I miss somthing?
This is a bill in the house; It hasn't passed yet.
If you read through this thread thoroughly you will see the current problem with the way the law is written. This civil penalty is actually a good thing. (Well, as far as permitting goes)
 

simmonsjoe

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Repeater wrote:
This is from a Roanoke street cop with 10 years of experience:

Concealed Weapons

Ask a Cop in my Email:
Subject: Concealed Carry License
Message: Say a traffic stop, is it wise to show your CCW License along with your driver's license and proof of insurance? Or better to just produce the documents requested ?(I don't drink, so it won't be a DUI.)

I read somewhere it would reassure the officer that he is not dealing with a felon.

Aside, I am a member of the Class of 1962 at Va Tech. Roanoke has certainly changed since I passed through. I think I found you through Lawdog.
I wish this is something they covered when issuing Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permits. Although I guess in Virginia it's technically a Carry Concealed Handgun but the common acronym around the country seems to be CCW.

Anyway, in a state like VA there are a lot of guns, legally, and we do run into them occasionally. I know the politicians would like to hear they cause problems but they don't. It's very rare to come across someone legally carrying a concealed gun. Once in a while a thug without a record is doing it but it's short lived since they usually disqualify themselves with a criminal record pretty quickly.

One of the few times that I do run into legal CCW's is on traffic stops or car accidents. This is one of the few times that normally law abiding folks end up coming into contact with law enforcement.

Here's how most stops for traffic infractions happen. I take off after a car and I'll call it in to dispatch so they know where I am.

Me: "RoaVaPD traffic stop." Activate blue lights and start the stop.

Dispatch acknowledges: "RoaVaPD traffic stop."

"RoaVaPD traffic stop Mason Mill at 13th St Northeast on Oh-Nine Virginia Alpha Bravo Charlie 1-2-3-4, grey Toyota Carolla, one occupant."

The car stops and I walk up. At this point dispatch might might run the tag and let me know if it's stolen or the owner is suspended.

I'll make contact with the driver and request their license and registration and inform them why I stopped them. When I return to my car I'll use my computer to check the car and the driver and for their DMV record and see if they are wanted.

When we do a DMV check the computer automatically checks VCIN. That's the Virginia Criminal Information Network and we pronounce it "Vee-Sin." VCIN contains records for, among other things, stolen cars, the Virginia Sex Offender Registry, and the CCW files. If whoever I'm running (the driver) has a CCW I'll get a response with all their information (name, address, date of birth, height, weight, eye color, hair color, when the permit expires, and the court that issued it.)

At this point I usually have a short out of body experience as I involuntarily shudder from being so close to a gun I didn't know about. Rationally I know that the holder is a law abiding citizen who has been through a background check. But the paranoid cop in me wonders why the driver didn't tell me. Are they planning on using the gun when I return with a ticket? Some people don't act rationally when we issue them a traffic summons.

If you have a CCW and you get stopped here's what I would prefer, and I think most cops would agree.

Get as far on the shoulder or off the road as you safely can. At night turn on your dome light. Roll down all four windows if you have power windows. Turn the engine off and place your hands on your steering wheel. Don't start digging around for your registration card, I can't tell if you are stashing a gun or getting one out. When I approach tell me you have a CCW and tell me where the gun is. Even if you aren't carrying I won't know that when I get the computer return so just tell me.

Me: "I'm Officer Paranoid with the Roanoke Police Department, the reason I stopped you tonight is I saw you roll through that stop sign back there, can I see your license and registration please?"

You, before you take your hands off the wheel: "Yes, officer I have a concealed handgun permit and my gun is on my right hip/in my backpack on the passenger seat/in the trunk/at home I'm not carrying it tonight."

If you are standing on the side of the road or in a parking lot after a car crash it's still the same. I'll walk up and ask each of the drivers what happened and return to my car with all the documentation. When you hand me your stuff, before I go to my car, ask to speak to me privately. Discretely tell me you have the CCW and where the gun is.

If you are a passenger in a car I won't know unless I run you. You can inform me upfront when I talk to the driver as a matter of courtesy. If for some reason I get around to checking the passengers and discover the CCW from the computer I'll have the same reaction I mentioned above.

If you go through a DWI or other checkpoint have your documents ready before reaching the officer. As you hand the officer your license, registration, insurance and CCW permit tell them where your gun is, even if it's just at home.

We often get lookouts for cars leaving the scene of crimes or suspicious activity. We'll stop cars or people who match that description and identify them and attempt to discover if they are one and the same with what was involved in the incident. You may be stopped as a purely investigative stop to identify you and see if you were involved with a crime because your car description is the same. If you didn't just rob the bank or burglarize a business etc you have nothing to worry about and will be released quickly. You may not know why we are stopping you so just be upfront about the CCW and where the gun is, even if it's just at home.

Depending on whether I'm alone or why I stopped you or my level of paranoia I may ask for the gun. I will return it when our contact is over. Some over zealous rookie may take your rounds out or return the gun with the magazine removed. Sorry about that. I won't though.

Most cops, especially when you get away from major metropolitan areas, are hunters. Many have military backgrounds, and many have their own personal firearms. Personally I'm very glad for CCW's and I had one before I was a cop. I'm not going to bust your chops for having it. I'm a bit of a gun nut myself. In fact I've used my discretion on several traffic stops and gave a verbal warning rather than a ticket because I was grateful for the driver informing me up front and then chatting about guns with me while I admired their carry handgun.

My training in the academy about legal guns was pretty lacking. I suspect most cops are very poorly trained on legal guns. Most of what I know is self taught. I've heard nightmares (not around here) about cops who order CCW's out of cars at gunpoint and handcuff and disarm them during the stop just because they identified themselves as legally armed. I think that's horrific and most cops probably agree with me. That's the response for someone who just committed a felony but most cops are so poorly trained about legal guns they don't know anything except high risk disarming. Keep in mind though if I think you match the description for a burglary suspect who just left the scene of the crime you may get a high risk disarming. I'll at least explain why when the dust settles. But you shouldn't get that treatment just because you are a legal CCW.

If you run into one of these cops just comply with everything they tell you to do. Arguing with us on the side of the road will never get you anything and usually tends to escalate the situation even more. If you are treated heavy handed by a poorly trained cop just cooperate. When it's over you can file an official complaint with the department. If you believe that your civil rights were violated then talk to an attorney. Your recourse is after the stop not during it. Always cooperate to avoid escalating the problem.
I am not anti-cop, but we must remember that, they can not have our interest as their priority. The reasons in blue are their priority. And it is understandable!
Worse still, the VCIN is a criminal database, and the fact your name was in there puts a negative connotation on it regardless of the fact its a CHP.

Some of the effects are in green. Understand that while this may be what is best for the cops, it is forfeiting some aspects of your 4th amendment rights.

YES.

My solution to this dilemma was:
I chose to get a vehicle mounted holster for my pistol. It is in plain view. I lower my driver's side window only a couple of inches, so I may hand the officer my Lic & Reg. I inform him the conversation is being recorded. If he requests, I exit my truck, locking my door as I go. This seems to be the method to avoid having your gun leave your possession. IANAL. I hope this is a halfway point for the officer, as I'm trying to find a balance, not be difficult.

Of course I pull over as safely as possible, turn off the vehicle and light the dome.
THIS IS IMPORTANT. WAY TOO MANY ACCIDENTS BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T GET OFF THE ROAD SAFELY. ALSO IF YOU SEE A COP ON THE SHOULDER, MOVE OVER TO THE LEFT LANE, IF YOU CANNOT, SLOW DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY. IT IS LAW IN VA, BUT DO IT EVERYWHERE!
 

ProShooter

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Repeater - Please tell me who this Roanoke officer is so that I may offer him an instructor position! :)

His responses are word for word what I tell my students. As I read those paragraphs, I thought someone had copied one of my lectures. If anyone has every taken my Introduction to Concealed Carry in Virgnia class, you will hear the exact same thing. Kudos to that officer for his intelligence and excellent responses!

Please everyone, commit what that officer has said to your memory banks.
 
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