View Poll Results: would you interfere in the situation presented in this video.

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  • yes, as soon as it starts to go down

    25 75.76%
  • yes, when the punk strikes the cashier

    2 6.06%
  • yes, at the end, on their way out

    0 0%
  • no, at no point would I interfere in this

    1 3.03%
  • I need more information to answer this question

    5 15.15%
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Thread: armed robbery, would you interfere?

  1. #1
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    want to know what you guys think, I know it's all situational, but this vid really has me thinking.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=405_1185833247

    it's a jewelry store robbery, in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.


    edited for :for purposes of the poll and responses assume that you are standing directly underneath the video camera when it begins, and for some reason, throughout the video, you are in the same position unless you decide to intervene.

  2. #2
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    It depends on where I was, but if I was behind the guy with the gun (and there really wasn't a way to not be) I would have taken him out first then the other two.

    Of course, if I were OCing this may not have happened.

    But then again maybe I would have been ordered to the ground and disarmed. Got to get me a CC BUG.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    To me there are a lot of variables involved that would have to be answered before I would ever take any action. Such as but not limited to:

    Are their multiple criminals involved?

    Do you have a clear shot at the criminal which would defuse the situation?

    Is there a possibility your shot would be in proximity of hitting an innocent person based on the relation to where the shot would have to line up?

    What is the position of the criminals?

    Are they armed with firearms?

    If firearms are they pointed in my direction? Would they see me reach for a weapon?

    There are so many variables this is impossible to answer. The only way I would act is if my life or the life of someone around me was in danger and I had the ability to end it without making things worse or possibly killing someone else by accident. In most circumstances doing nothing and giving them the money is the best answer. Money is not worth dieing for.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    To me there are a lot of variables involved that would have to be answered before I would ever take any action. Such as but not limited to:

    Are their multiple criminals involved?
    watch the vid :-)

    Do you have a clear shot at the criminal which would defuse the situation?
    watch the vid :-)

    Is there a possibility your shot would be in proximity of hitting an innocent person based on the relation to where the shot would have to line up?
    watch the vid :-) (although this changes throughout)

    What is the position of the criminals?
    watch the vid :-)

    Are they armed with firearms?
    watch the vid :-)

    If firearms are they pointed in my direction? Would they see me reach for a weapon?
    that's a judgement call to make, determine whether MUST go for it, if not.......

    There are so many variables this is impossible to answer. The only way I would act is if my life or the life of someone around me was in danger and I had the ability to end it without making things worse or possibly killing someone else by accident. In most circumstances doing nothing and giving them the money is the best answer. Money is not worth dieing for.the video linked eliminates many of the variables mentioned. No, money ain't worth dying for, but what if.......
    oh, I edited to OP to reflect the physical position decision must be made from.

  5. #5
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    At 36 seconds , hey excuse me, and as he and his buddy turn that would be it.

    I did NOT watch only to 34 seconds and i already had my hand near my gun, at 36 i was on a defensive posture. Never did watch the rest of the tape...

    To start with, even it you did not give this tape heads up, i would have felt uneasy, as they were walking back and fort to much, my hair on the back of my neck would have been standing up. Always trust your instinct.



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    watch the rest of it, interesting.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    It depends. If the guy was 5 feet away, back turned and pointing a gun at others, I suspect I'd finish it with a head shot.

    On the other hand, I'm not going to die to defend anybody else's property.

    If circumstances permit, or I just can't bear to watch what's happening to another person, sure. Otherwise, not likely.

  8. #8
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    Remember that you are watching a video in which you know something is about to happen. Realistically, I would expect someone would notice something was going down at the 45 sec mark (when he jumps the counter). I think I would realistically be able to bring force to bear at around50-55 seconds. You must assess the situation, decide the best moment to act, and then bring your weapon into play.

    The man in the black and white leather automatically gets neutralized first, since the other two have their hands busy with the merch. Then the other two will be handled appropriately since they would then know thatdeadly force is in play against them. Escape seems unlikely given that the door took some time to get through. Immediate surrender and or compliance would be the only things they could do that would save them from being shot.

    It is hard to tell if the other two had weapons. If they were armed, I would expect that at some point I would be the recipient of gunfire. I don't think I would go unscathed.

    While we all might wish we were aware at the moment a robbery starts, please look at the situation realistically.

    One further thought: the man with the gun went for the male in the room first. If you insert me into the situation, I would probably be his first target. He may very well have the drop on me.

  9. #9
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    EM87 wrote:
    I would have taken him out first then the other two.

    Of course, if I were OCing this may not have happened.
    That's a good point, EM87. What would have happened if an OCer had been in the shop while the 3 thugs were getting ready to do the dirty deed?

    I think that the most likely thing to happen would be that the OCer would be shot and killed. The second most likely thing to happen would be that the OCer would have a gun pointed at him with an attempt to render him defenseless.

    "May not have happened?"

    C'mon....




    EM87 wrote:
    But then again maybe I would have been ordered to the ground and disarmed. Got to get me a CC BUG.
    But then again the BUG might be useless to you if you were, uhm, incapacitated...

  10. #10
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    HankT wrote:
    "May not have happened?"

    C'mon....
    Many times in Phoenix, and once now in Detroit, I've watched my visible handgun scare off obvious criminals. LA's street trash moved to Phoenix and Detroit's gang bangers are about as bad as it gets for no good punks. Being armed is a universal way to say leave me alone or risk death.

    Most criminals don't want to risk dying. Yep, some do. The best we can hope for if we meet such a person is that we'll draw faster and make better use of cover.

    One thing we can say for certain is that killing of OCers outside of war zones happens very rarely.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    It depends...

    Not.

    At 56 seconds when the guy approaches me (If not earlier) it would be bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,bang, bang, bang, bang, bang... shlick, smack, click-click. Who's next?
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    HankT wrote:
    EM87 wrote:
    I would have taken him out first then the other two.

    Of course, if I were OCing this may not have happened.
    That's a good point, EM87. What would have happened if an OCer had been in the shop while the 3 thugs were getting ready to do the dirty deed?

    I think that the most likely thing to happen would be that the OCer would be shot and killed. The second most likely thing to happen would be that the OCer would have a gun pointed at him with an attempt to render him defenseless.

    "May not have happened?"

    C'mon....




    EM87 wrote:
    But then again maybe I would have been ordered to the ground and disarmed. Got to get me a CC BUG.
    But then again the BUG might be useless to you if you were, uhm, incapacitated...
    They would have left with their tail between their legs like the cowards that all criminals are.

  13. #13
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    Michigander wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    "May not have happened?"

    C'mon....
    Many times in Phoenix, and once now in Detroit, I've watched my visible handgun scare off obvious criminals. LA's street trash moved to Phoenix and Detroit's gang bangers are about as bad as it gets for no good punks. Being armed is a universal way to say leave me alone or risk death.

    Most criminals don't want to risk dying. Yep, some do. The best we can hope for if we meet such a person is that we'll draw faster and make better use of cover.

    One thing we can say for certain is that killing of OCers outside of war zones happens very rarely.
    Well, I don't know how you could be certain that they are "scare[d] off" due to your OC'd gun. But I'd agree that it would tend to dissuade some or many BGs from starting some felonious hijinks in your presence.

    But, the question is still, if the thugs that robbed the jewelry store were not discouraged by a lone OCer in the shop, what would happen?

    What do you think, Michigander?



    P.S. As far as OCers not getting killed very rarely, isn't that primarily due to there being so few of them?

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    Bad Scenario:
    ~0:37 seconds when the weapon is drawn, and he begins pointing it at the cashier.

    Survey the area fast, make sure it's only the 3 perps.

    I'd draw and look for cover. However, it looks like there is none, so my only option is to stay nimble. I'd give him one chance:

    "DROP THE GUN"

    And if he turns, moves, delays a second, or does anything other than drops it, he gets _x_ amount of .45 JHP slugs center mass from the side until target is no longer a threat. Immediately close distance as he drops, and kick his gun FAR away, while training on the other two criminals. Tell them to "DON'T MOVE, HANDS UP OR I'LL SHOOT".

    Hopefully they'll comply. If they do, I'd tell them to lay down with their hands out, palms up with their feet spread. Reaffirm : "If you move, I will assume you have a weapon and shoot."

    Police arrive:
    Once they have control of the situation, unload gun, disarm, give gun to cops and tell them "I will not give a statement until I've contacted a lawyer. May I make a phone call?"

    Then we all know how it plays out from there...

    Really Bad Scenario:
    Criminal notices I'm armed, he turns, I get shot.

    Good Scenario:
    I'm open-carrying, they walk in, see I'm armed, realize that this "job" isn't worth their lives, they leave, and I'm none-the-wiser that I just stopped a crime purely by existing.

    -Richard-

  15. #15
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    6 seconds in. Guy in blue wearing Black hat is checking door. They immediately go into a spread move. It moves all the employees to different parts of the store. Keeps everyone's attention focused in different directions.

    As for interfering. Depends on several things. If standing in plain site I'd be behind counter they would be centering their attention on me probably figuring me for security. This means they either leave or pull & shoot me. Not my favorite scenario. The setup is all wrong. It is real hard to engage multiple targets spread like that. My training would make me go into aggressive mode with no quarter given.

    With that many in play means no warnings. As soon as I see weapon I put the guy in black & white down and if the 2 idiots are doing anything other pretending to be hands high statues they get same.

    We used to train with similar "multiple threat" scenario's. No matter what I figure it will not come out good for me. And I don't intend on getting shot again any time soon.
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    About 38 sec. when I know there was a gun being drawn. I would be ready the minute I walked in and saw multiple people talking to one another casing the place, stepping away from them and making it look like I was looking at the items.

    It's easy to stare at a person or twoif it's in the day without their knowing with your sun glasses on, I do it often.

    Of course the field would not be the same with another person in the store.

  17. #17
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    mikestilly wrote:
    To me there are a lot of variables involved that would have to be answered before I would ever take any action. Such as but not limited to:

    Are their multiple criminals involved?

    Do you have a clear shot at the criminal which would defuse the situation?

    Is there a possibility your shot would be in proximity of hitting an innocent person based on the relation to where the shot would have to line up?

    What is the position of the criminals?

    Are they armed with firearms?

    If firearms are they pointed in my direction? Would they see me reach for a weapon?

    There are so many variables this is impossible to answer. The only way I would act is if my life or the life of someone around me was in danger and I had the ability to end it without making things worse or possibly killing someone else by accident. In most circumstances doing nothing and giving them the money is the best answer. Money is not worth dieing for.
    I agree with Mike. Way too many variables (although, I think it's safe to say that everyone was in mortal danger from the very start). Would I try to help? That depends upon if I was in a position to help. Most likely, Yes. Of course I would go for the gunman first.

    I’d like to think I would do what I can to defend those people, but without knowing my position in relation to the others, it’s impossible to determine how and when I would have reacted. Situational awareness is great in determining if a threat is present, but I doubt it would pass the test of a reasonable person’s fears.

    I do agree with mastiff69 that the way the were pacing back and forth would have raised suspicion. The shooter and the black T-shirt did a decent job of putting up the appearance of legitimate shopping, but the third guy was just casing the place from the get-go.

    I honestly don’t know how anyone could accurately predict how and when they would react when they truly can’t know where they would be standing at the start of the encounter. Sure, SA would indicate something was up, and being a jewelry store would be an obvious indication of what was about to happen, but there are way too many unanswered questions beyond that to accurately know specifically what I would do. The main one being, “what is my position to the others?” If I’m standing at the camera angle (or on the customer side of the counter from the same angle), then I’ve probably got the drop on the gunman however, at the time he draws (35 seconds) the blue shirt is close enough to guard, so he would have to be dealt with. That means that I’d probably have to drift toward that side of the shop as the gunman also drifted toward the left of the screen. Problem with that is, at that point, I’ve no way of knowing if the other two are armed. Another problem it presents is that my movement would be blocked by the door itself. Also, as the are all spread out, it would put me in a crossfire between the three of them. It might not have been a bad thing to wait until the gunman put the merchant on the ground. That way I would have had a clear shot, and the other two would have been bunched together. This would have also allowed the door to give me some protection. This truly is a dangerous situation with no easy answer. First though would be to start shooting the gunman while advancing and moving, but that still doesn’t rule out the prospect of the others being equally armed. Another dangerous aspect is that it was close confines, and the only escape for them would probably mean going through me (unless I was standing by the merchant at the beginning.

    Something else to note. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if these thugs had any experience on the gridiron at some point. The shooter and the blue shirt performed a classic cross pattern used by receivers to throw off the secondary, and the shooter was pretty tall if he could just step over the counter like that (not to mention that he was very bulky). That aspect really was quite nice. One minute the shooter is at the right of the screen, then him and the blue shirt switch places. They were creating a lot of traffic between the two of them.

    I also think JamesIan has a good point. From the camera angle, the gunman’s draw is not all too evident. Obvious yes, but not evident. The camera doesn’t show the gun until 38 seconds, and that would be if you were watching from that angle, at which case it would put the merchant right in the line of fire, and the blue shirt within arms reach of my firearm.



    This is quite interesting. At first, the guy in the black T-shirt is not so active. He actually seems to act like he is just trying to stay out of the other two perps way, and at 51 seconds he even raises both hands as if in surrender while appearing to try to walk away. Then he comes back and jumps the counter.

  18. #18
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    If anyones life was in danger hell yes i would interfere

  19. #19
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    xd-40 wrote:
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=405_1185833247

    it's a jewelry store robbery, in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.
    Where didthe jewelry store robbery occur? Which state/country?


    eta clarification of question.

  20. #20
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    HankT wrote:
    xd-40 wrote:
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=405_1185833247

    it's a jewelry store robbery, in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.
    Where didthe jewelry store robbery occur?

    Inside a jewelry store I would think.

  21. #21
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    xd-40 wrote:
    ...
    it's a jewelry store robbery, in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.


    edited for :for purposes of the poll and responses assume that you are standing directly underneath the video camera when it begins, and for some reason, throughout the video, you are in the same position unless you decide to intervene.

    no, at no point would I interfere in this doesn't quite get at the choice I think is advisable.

    The best time to act decisively in this case is by 0:34.

    And the best thing to do is leave--quickly and uneventfully.The sooner, the better. Go outside, get some cover, dial 9-1-1 (or ask someone to do it for you, if negligently don't have your cell) and report what you've seen.

    3 against 1 is bad odds. Only a gun-first guy sticks around for that. A foolish gun guy...


    The right thing to do is flee. Immediately.



  22. #22
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    HankT wrote:
    xd-40 wrote:
    ...
    it's a jewelry store robbery,* in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.


    edited for :for purposes of the poll and responses assume that you are standing directly underneath the video camera when it begins, and for some reason, throughout the video, you are in the same position unless you decide to intervene.

    no, at no point would I interfere in this doesn't quite get at the choice I think is advisable.

    The best time to act decisively in this case is by 0:34.

    And the best thing to do is leave--quickly and uneventfully.*The sooner, the better. *Go outside, get some cover, dial 9-1-1 (or ask someone to do it for you, if negligently don't have your cell) and report what you've seen.

    3 against 1 is bad odds. Only a gun-first guy sticks around for that. A foolish gun guy...


    The right thing to do is flee. Immediately.
    The guy starts opening fire. So I guess you would be dead.

  23. #23
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    mikestilly wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    xd-40 wrote:
    ...
    it's a jewelry store robbery, in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.


    edited for :for purposes of the poll and responses assume that you are standing directly underneath the video camera when it begins, and for some reason, throughout the video, you are in the same position unless you decide to intervene.

    no, at no point would I interfere in this doesn't quite get at the choice I think is advisable.

    The best time to act decisively in this case is by 0:34.

    And the best thing to do is leave--quickly and uneventfully.The sooner, the better. Go outside, get some cover, dial 9-1-1 (or ask someone to do it for you, if negligently don't have your cell) and report what you've seen.

    3 against 1 is bad odds. Only a gun-first guy sticks around for that. A foolish gun guy...


    The right thing to do is flee. Immediately.
    The guy starts opening fire. So I guess you would be dead.
    No. The idea, MS, is to leave before the shooting.

    Before.

    After the shooting starts, you're way behind the curve. Probably get shot. Might get killed. Family would mourn.

    Before, MS.

  24. #24
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    HankT wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    xd-40 wrote:
    ...
    it's a jewelry store robbery, in which some of us would have avoided interfering, watch it through, if at any point you would CHOOSE to involve your uninvolved self, put up the time stamp at which you interfere.


    edited for :for purposes of the poll and responses assume that you are standing directly underneath the video camera when it begins, and for some reason, throughout the video, you are in the same position unless you decide to intervene.

    no, at no point would I interfere in this doesn't quite get at the choice I think is advisable.

    The best time to act decisively in this case is by 0:34.

    And the best thing to do is leave--quickly and uneventfully.The sooner, the better. Go outside, get some cover, dial 9-1-1 (or ask someone to do it for you, if negligently don't have your cell) and report what you've seen.

    3 against 1 is bad odds. Only a gun-first guy sticks around for that. A foolish gun guy...


    The right thing to do is flee. Immediately.
    The guy starts opening fire. So I guess you would be dead.
    No. The idea, MS, is to leave before the shooting.

    Before.

    After the shooting starts, you're way behind the curve. Probably get shot. Might get killed. Family would mourn.

    Before, MS.
    Not saying that your recommendation of fleeing is a bad idea, but did you not notice that the door was locked.

    So,

    Flee, only to discover the door is locked. Now what?

  25. #25
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    ghostrider wrote:
    Not saying that your recommendation of fleeing is a bad idea, but did you not notice that the door was locked.

    So,

    Flee, only to discover the door is locked. Now what?
    Yes, I noticed that. I wondered when the door actually became locked. You bring up an important point.

    It doesn't make too much sense for a retail store to lock in customers, although I have seen it done. But perhaps the door locked with the tripping of an alarm. If the door locked upon some alarm tripping (after 0:35) then that's all the more reason to make the power move of fleeing--INSTANTLY.

    Hanging around....pausing...being indecisive....gets you shot up on this one.

    If the door is unlocked at time 0 to 0:34, then there is no problem. If the door is locked, then it has to be broken. The robbers got out, didn't they?

    3 against 1. Not good odds.

    Retreat. Flee. That's the smart thing to do. Call in the gendarmes.

    What would you do, GR?

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