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Thread: Oregon now allows you to lawfully resist arrest...

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    This makes things very interesting in the State of Oregon.

    The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office (Portland Metro) recently sent out a memo regarding a resisting case (State v. Oliphant) and the affect on Oregon law enforcement. In essence the ruling says:

    "An arrestee may defend himself against a police officer's use or imminent use of force if the arrestee believes, as much as a reasonable person in his position would believe, that the officer's use or imminent use of force exceeds the force reasonably necessary to make the arrest.

    Oregon effectively is now the only state that gives a suspect charged with Resisting Arrest (ORS 162.315) an affirmative defense that they were defending themselves against what they reasonably believed was an actual or imminent unlawful use of force by a Police Officer. Accompanying charges including Assault on a Public Safety Officer will likely be dismissed if the argument stands."

    It is sometimes fun to be a cop in Oregon.or the 9th Circuit for that matter. The full case can be viewed at the below link:
    http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/S056404.htm

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    A citizen may now "lawfully" defend themselves against over-assertive police.

    Cool!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    slowfiveoh wrote:
    A citizen may now "lawfully" defend themselves against over-assertive police.

    Cool!
    So now does this mean that if a cop pulls a gun on a citizen throwing a snowball, that he can now defend himself with an equal force?

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    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    Good question. Lets say that cop is in uniform and he pulls his gun for a snowball hitting him. A person of reasonable sense and understanding would assume that the cop has lost his mind and is going to murder someone. Police are people too and they are not immune to the worst parts of humanity just because they put on a badge. I seem to remember a police chief killing his wife and himself not to long ago. I would say in the actual case where a plain clothes detective pulled a gun on a guy for hitting him with a snowball, that guy would have been justified in killing that cop. He doesn't know he is a cop, and even if he did, hecouldn't knowhis state of mind, and his temper and intent ( the attitude and objectives of an individual displayed by their actions and equipment) wouldsuggest that he was going to kill the snowball thrower.



    -edited for more thoughts

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    swatspyder wrote:
    So now does this mean that if a cop pulls a gun on a citizen throwing a snowball, that he can now defend himself with an equal force?

    I have NO clue, BUT, it is definitely a step in the right direction, for a country that likes to tout how "Free" we are! Cops now understand, in Oregon at least, that they had better be on their best behaviour too! What is kind of cool about this is the idea that there is legitimate recourse for Officers violating any of our Consitutional rights. That's pretty nifty in my book!


    sempercarry wrote:
    Good question. Lets say that cop is in uniform and he pulls his gun for a snowball hitting him. A person of reasonable sense and understanding would assume that the cop has lost his mind and is going to murder someone. Police are people too and they are not immune to the worst parts of humanity just because they put on a badge. I seem to remember a police chief killing his wife and himself not to long ago. I would say in the actual case where a plain clothes detective pulled a gun on a guy for hitting him with a snowball, that guy would have been justified in killing that cop. He doesn't know he is a cop, and even if he did, hecouldn't knowhis state of mind, and his temper and intent ( the attitude and objectives of an individual displayed by their actions and equipment) wouldsuggest that he was going to kill the snowball thrower.



    -edited for more thoughts
    If only more people utilized critical thinking, and logic, such as you do sir, the world would be a better place!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Many states allow use of reasonable force to defend against an unlawful arrest, inluding Virginia (thoug not unlawful seizure, at least in Virginia). This seems to be a corollary holding - let's say you spit on the sidewalk, and an officer decides to arrest you for this, but he just starts tasing you for no good reason - over and over again - seems to me the common law of every state would be held by a court on these facts to allow reasonable force to defend against this attack on your person.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    I also think this is a step in the right direction. This along with the New Mexico ruling on "qualifying immunity" should help to keep errant officers in check. However, if it comes down to he said, he said the cop will win. This is why I fully support 24/7 dash cams in police cars. It protects the citizen and the officer.

    The only issue I see with some police is that they are less likely to get charged with a crime when they commit one. That needs to be changed as well. And while I'm on my soap box. Stop arresting people for drug offenses and roll the money saved into paying officers more money. Because the police get paid sh!t wages. Balance out the wages with the responsibility and I think everyone will be happy. For the most part.


    I watch a lot of COPS and the one thing I never understood was 5 cops yelling different orders and the suspect just looking bewildered. They tackle a guy to the ground and they're all screaming. Each one is trying to wrench an arm around while screaming, "Stop resisting!" Sorry, but if you're trying see if you can dislocate my arm I'm going to resist. I don't lose the right to defend my well being because you have a badge.

    It wasn't until I saw.....Lawman. Yeah, it's a guilty pleasure that I was happy to hear Steven Seagal tell everyone to, "calm down". Anyway, just deep thoughts there.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    gsx1138 wrote:

    I watch a lot of COPS and the one thing I never understood was 5 cops yelling different orders and the suspect just looking bewildered.Â*
    Say you're a cop and you want to beat up somebody but you want some legal cover so you don't lose your job if video of your actions surfaces. If you and your buddies all yell different, contradictory orders at your victim, obviously they can't comply. Then you can always say "the suspect did not comply with my orders so I followed procedure and applied a pain compliance technique...." or some other BS. Happens everyday in america, land of the free

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide. I think a cops job is hard enough, so if one Identifies himself properly and tells you to put your hands up, you should if you do not comply the officer should be able to use force at that time. I have however been the victim of extreme force. I was complying with officers put hands behind back to be cuffed when another walked up and put me to the ground and a knee in my back. i was young and didnt hurt much. I do know however think that could be devestating to the repair work that I've since had done to my back. Dont know why he did it since I was complying, but still havnt changed my outlook, still think cops get the bad end of the stick, they draw on a fleeing suspect, yell stop or I'll shoot, but they really cant. they should be able too. Remember this is coming from someone who used to feel singled out, and used to hate cops witha passion. I grew up and realized I was the ignorant one. just saying...
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    amzbrady wrote:
    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide. I think a cops job is hard enough, so if one Identifies himself properly and tells you to put your hands up, you should if you do not comply the officer should be able to use force at that time.
    Nope, nope, nope.......

    He has tohave RAS before you have to have any cooperation with him. I am very strict on this, for my self. All steps to tyranny must be cut short even if we have nothing to hide.

    And qualified immunity doesn't apply, for open carrying.....see the recent Judge Black decision...

    And I know people who have harder jobs....let's not forget ...as Cheif Deputy Doll..told me (while I open carried in a meeting with him at the police headquarters) "No one held a gun to our head and made us become police officers"


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    amzbrady wrote:
    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide.
    Will you post a copy of all your bank accounts and what you purchased (with numbers redacted)? Can I install a speed meter on your vehicle that constantly monitors you and tickets you if you go over the speed limit?

    Can we put a camera in your bedroom and allow public viewing? What about just officers?

    Perhaps I can just follow you around with a camera everywhere you go until you realize that privacy has innate value, and your concept of "nothing to hide" is bogus.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    So it's legal for me to evade police now because I don't believe I should be pulled over.

    Awesome!
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    killchain wrote:
    So it's legal for me to evade police now because I don't believe I should be pulled over.

    Awesome!
    LOL...don't get carried away now.....our state views driving as a priveledge.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    killchain wrote:
    So it's legal for me to evade police now because I don't believe I should be pulled over.

    Awesome!
    Flawed logic with the original post because the officer's use of force is not excessive by just pulling you over.

    But if you roll down your window and he uses his OC spray on you, then you could get away or use a reasonable force to defend yourself.

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    amzbrady wrote:
    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide. I think a cops job is hard enough, so if one Identifies himself properly and tells you to put your hands up, you should if you do not comply the officer should be able to use force at that time. I have however been the victim of extreme force. I was complying with officers put hands behind back to be cuffed when another walked up and put me to the ground and a knee in my back. i was young and didnt hurt much. I do know however think that could be devestating to the repair work that I've since had done to my back. Dont know why he did it since I was complying, but still havnt changed my outlook, still think cops get the bad end of the stick, they draw on a fleeing suspect, yell stop or I'll shoot, but they really cant. they should be able too. Remember this is coming from someone who used to feel singled out, and used to hate cops witha passion. I grew up and realized I was the ignorant one. just saying...
    So your all grown up now and its OK to violate your rights. I dont hate LEOs but I do demand that they do their job lawfully. I do not understand anyone complying with ID checks or searches unless the officer can demonstrate RAS. What happened to you was assault plain and simple and the officer should have been arrested. I know exactly what you went through because I had a similar thing happen to me. On that day I made up my mind that it was never going to happen againwithoutlegal repercussions.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    amzbrady wrote:
    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide.
    :shock:

    We do not exercise our rights because we are hiding something. We do it because we are free Americans who refuse to have our rights violated.



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    To bad WA is so far off. As per 141 Wn.2d 731, STATE v. BRADLEY, police can essentially torture you and as long as grevious bodily harm or death is actually imminent, you can't do nothin.
    In Bradley, a handcuffed inmate who was begging to see the nurse because he was too ill to move wouldn't get up, was maced, and the screw started rubbing the pepper spray in his eyes to enhance the effect, and Bradley bit him. He was subsequently convicted of felony assualt.


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    I dont break the law, anymore, so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide.
    Being a law-abiding citizen is no excuse to surrender your rights. Searches and ID checks are for when they have a reason to believe you are involved in a crime, not just for when they can't find anyone to make their quota so they stop anyone walking at night "just for a little chat."
    Even just for police-community relations, arbitrary stops are bad, since they piss off more people and foster hostile relations with the police, especially since teenagers are so often the target. Then they'll just end up like so many of "us" and think cops need to shove it or get a warrant, all because of some stuff the looked up on the internet because they were pissed off about getting searched for no reason, again. Searches and ID checks should be left to where they are legally allowed- the almighty reasonable and articulable suspicion.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Tawnos wrote:
    amzbrady wrote:
    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide.
    Will you post a copy of all your bank accounts and what you purchased (with numbers redacted)? Can I install a speed meter on your vehicle that constantly monitors you and tickets you if you go over the speed limit?

    Can we put a camera in your bedroom and allow public viewing? What about just officers?

    Perhaps I can just follow you around with a camera everywhere you go until you realize that privacy has innate value, and your concept of "nothing to hide" is bogus.
    No I wont post my bank accounts but will save my reciepts for you, not much to show mostly goes on bills, $295 a week on unemployment dont go far, pays some bills, some groceries, a little gas, crap, can I borrow a buck I can only afford a 5 pack of beer. Sure install a speed meter, I usually use cruise anyway, I cant afford a speeding ticket, had one 2 years ago for 5 miles an hour over,dont hardly drive anywhere anymore. Can only put a camera in my bedroom if it makes me money legally (My wife might object though, since we've both gained wieght). I actually wouldnt mind if there were camera's everywhere. I think it would be easier to track where criminals go after a crime if cameras were on every street corner, and guilty or not guilty wouldnt be so labor intensive and costly to figure out. Mostpeople are very fake, and act a little better when they think they are being watched, that wouldnt bother me if peopleacted a little better. I dont expect any privacy while in public. What do we think I might have to hide anyway? I dont live my life for anyone but my family and I and only have one person to impress, that is God. He will be my judge in the end, so hopefully I have made the right desicions in life and will have nothing to worry about in the end. Just me and MY opinion.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    amzbrady wrote:
    Tawnos wrote:
    amzbrady wrote:
    I dont break the law, anymore,so I have no problem with search's or ID Checks, or things of that nature. It doesnt effect me one way or the other, I dont have anything to hide.
    Will you post a copy of all your bank accounts and what you purchased (with numbers redacted)? Can I install a speed meter on your vehicle that constantly monitors you and tickets you if you go over the speed limit?

    Can we put a camera in your bedroom and allow public viewing? What about just officers?

    Perhaps I can just follow you around with a camera everywhere you go until you realize that privacy has innate value, and your concept of "nothing to hide" is bogus.
    No I wont post my bank accounts but will save my reciepts for you, not much to show mostly goes on bills, $295 a week on unemployment dont go far, pays some bills, some groceries, a little gas, crap, can I borrow a buck I can only afford a 5 pack of beer. Sure install a speed meter, I usually use cruise anyway, I cant afford a speeding ticket, had one 2 years ago for 5 miles an hour over,dont hardly drive anywhere anymore. Can only put a camera in my bedroom if it makes me money legally (My wife might object though, since we've both gained wieght). I actually wouldnt mind if there were camera's everywhere. I think it would be easier to track where criminals go after a crime if cameras were on every street corner, and guilty or not guilty wouldnt be so labor intensive and costly to figure out. Mostpeople are very fake, and act a little better when they think they are being watched, that wouldnt bother me if peopleacted a little better. I dont expect any privacy while in public. What do we think I might have to hide anyway? I dont live my life for anyone but my family and I and only have one person to impress, that is God. He will be my judge in the end, so hopefully I have made the right desicions in life and will have nothing to worry about in the end. Just me and MY opinion.
    Welljust becauseyou want to sacrifice privacy and freedom for "safety" doesn't mean we should.

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty
    to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
    deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"-Benjamin Franklin


    I find the following to be true today and in line with your attitiude. This is from Samual Adams.

    "In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. Every art of corruption would be employed to loosen the bond of union which renders our resistance formidable. When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom—go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Bravo SVG, Sam Adams was right. There are too many that want to take the easy way.

    "What's good for me might not be good for the weak-minded."

    Augustus McRae
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Really I think what would be feasable TO ME, would be if your gonna check ID's for no reason, at least deport those who dont belong.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    If I've assessed this correctly, it means you'll get acquitted of "resisting arrest".

    After the ass-whoopin' and trip to jail, that is.


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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    This is an interesting law. I can see where they wanted to go with it, butit is a bit of a sticky wicket. Before I get accused of condoning excessive force, let me say that I do not approve of it in any way, shape, or form.

    Here is where the problem lies.Each individual arestee is going to have to decide what is "excessive". If one chooses to "defend" themselves against thatPORTION of the force that they feel is excessive (as the new law states one can) The second an Officer meets resistance, they are trained to apply more force. Keep in mind that Officers are allowed to use at least one step higher force (on the force ladder or continuim)than what force is being used against them. Then if the arestee feels that they are now justified to escalate their force in answer to the Officer's increase, where does the escalation of force stop?

    Every Officer is trained to NEVER lose a fight, as the consequences have sometimes proven deadly to those who have lost. One has to understand that struggling/fighting with an Officer is considered a potentially life threatening battle, as the Officer may have his gun taken and used against him. The Officer also cannot know the intentions or mindsetof the person resisting as well. If the arestee is (already)armed this will escalate it, if the Officer is aware of this.

    Officers are also instructed and authorized to use deadly force if they feel that they are in jeopardy of losing the struggle/fight. My concern is that some aresteesmay feel empowered by this law, and escalate the situation the the point that deadly force is used against them. This would be tragic and unnecessary. Only time will tell where this new law will lead to.

    Just my thoughts on the matter from a Police perspective. JL.



    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts Johnny...I am not stupid I'll take my ass whipping and sue later...I don't care what the law says. Unless of course the officer is attempting to use deadly force than all bets off.

    Maybe this will lead officers to be more selective and certain about who they are trying to detain.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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