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Thread: Open Carry In car Question

  1. #1
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    Quick question:

    My Neighbor emailed me yesterday and asked me this question, I told him about the site and he said that he did not see any topics or answers to his question.

    I'd like to When OCing while driving i've been told two diffrent things by three people. That you can not wear the firearm in a holster on your belt because that would not be "open" carrying because the center box and the seat would cover most of it from someone seeing it from the outside. One of the people said that he would suggest putting the firearm (in holster) in the passanger's seat, or glove box. Then i've been told the opposite that it is still "open" while on your belt in the holster.

    If someone could please give me "correct" advice or answer that would be great. I can see the glove box or passanger seat but would like to give him the correct answer. Thank you.

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    I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, other than it needs to be "In plain sight". The general consensus is to just lay the gun in the seat or on the dashboard. KY statute allows putting the gun in the glovebox, but NOT a center console.

    I need to get some velcro, and a cheap nylon holster so that I can velcro it to the dashboard...

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    I believe it's KRS 527.020:
    No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person from keeping a firearm or ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in a glove compartment of a vehicle in accordance with the provisions of this subsection. Any attempt by a person or organization, public or private, to violate the provisions of this subsection may be the subject of an action for appropriate relief or for damages in a Circuit Court or District Court of competent jurisdiction.

    If it were me, and I did not have a CCDW, the only place I would put a loaded handgun in the car would be in my glove box.

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    Think of it this way. You're carrying on your hip OC style in your car. A cop approaches you. He can NOT see your weapon. That's concealed carry. No CDWL and you have a problem.

    In the glove box or on the dash is LEGAL, CDWL or not. In the console, under the seat or in a door pocket is considered concealed and without a CDWL you have a problem.

    On the passenger seat is a cop call. He may or may NOT see it. Basically, it is legal. Just be sure it is really open. This is your 'correct' answer.

    Hope this is helpful.

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    I had just been wondering about this one myself. Not really knowing for sure the legal view on this, I have been opting to remove the gun and place it on the passenger seat where it was still justas accessible, if need be. Thank you for shedding light upon this and for the gentleman that posted this query.

    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Think of it this way. You're carrying on your hip OC style in your car. A cop approaches you. He can NOT see your weapon. That's concealed carry. No CDWL and you have a problem.

    In the glove box or on the dash is LEGAL, CDWL or not. In the console, under the seat or in a door pocket is considered concealed and without a CDWL you have a problem.

    On the passenger seat is a cop call. He may or may NOT see it. Basically, it is legal. Just be sure it is really open. This is your 'correct' answer.

    Hope this is helpful.
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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Think of it this way. You're carrying on your hip OC style in your car. A cop approaches you. He can NOT see your weapon. That's concealed carry. No CDWL and you have a problem.

    In the glove box or on the dash is LEGAL, CDWL or not. In the console, under the seat or in a door pocket is considered concealed and without a CDWL you have a problem.

    On the passenger seat is a cop call. He may or may NOT see it. Basically, it is legal. Just be sure it is really open. This is your 'correct' answer.

    Hope this is helpful.
    Wrong.

    Your body position, or the position of the person "veiwing" the weapon are irrelevant.

    To "conceal" a weapon in a car means taking an action to hide the weapon. Simply getting into a car when you are wearing the gun on your hip is not taking an action on the weapon, therefore it is NOT concealment.

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    How sure are you on that?? Bad advice could put readers in jail.

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    Concealed means hidden. Period.

    If you accidently let a gun slip onto the floor under your seat, intentional or not,is itconcealed? Certainly.

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    The in holster and the out of holster in passanger seat both seam legal, tho what is the correct answer that a officer or court would deem as ok okay or legal? Any police officers or law enforcement in Kentucky that could answer?

    Also thanks to all who have replied so far. Glad I was'nt the only one here who had the same question. Makes me feel not stupid asking now.

    Happy new year everyone. Safe carrying.

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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Concealed means hidden. Period.

    If you accidently let a gun slip onto the floor under your seat, intentional or not,is itconcealed? Certainly.
    Bad example, if you let a gun slip onto the floor under your seat, you would retrieve it, would you not? Failure to retrieve it would constitute an action of concealing the firearm.

    I'm with superdemon on this one, body position is irrelevant, otherwise you would be carrying concealed standing up to anyone on the opposite side that you carry. It may be up to the LEO's opinion in the field, but it wouldn't hold up in court.

    Now that being said, I'm not convinced enough of my own opinion to try it. Although I carry on my hip because I don't feel I can get to it in the glovebox in time in an emergency, I've placed it in the glovebox before when pulled over for a traffic violation.

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    Either way you carry or believe you can carry.....Just have a Happy New Year.....and be safe!

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    Trust me guys, it's not concealed.

    And Mr.Mitch, you have to take the KRS definitions of words like "concealed" into account, not connotative definitions of words.

    A change in body position that is not intended soley to conceal the weapon is not "concealment".

    You HAVE to sit down in your car to operate it, and you do so. You did not sit down in your car for the sole purpose of concealing the weapon.

    I searched and searched KRS and caselaw, and I could not find anything that said there is any obligation to make your weapon more visible when driving a vehicle in such a manner.

    If a change in body position would fully reveal the weapon (i.e. getting out of the car), then it is not concealed.

    There is nothing wanton, reckless or negligent about getting into a car to drive it when you are OCing.

    And, I can tell you, both the courts, your fellow drivers, and most police officers would rather you have it safely holstered, than laying on the seat or the dash to be flung around thepaddenger compartmenteverytime you turn or brake suddenly.

    Let's take this to the ludicris extreme...

    If you had the weapon on the passenger seat, and I do a left-side walk up on a traffic stop, and I stay behind the B-pillar like I am suppossed to, I would stand a good chance of never seeing the weapon, anyway. The pillar, the seatback, and possibly your body would prevent me from seeing it. But a change in body position, such as you reclining your seat all the way back, would remedy that.

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    aegri_mentis wrote:
    A change in body position that is not intended soley to conceal the weapon is not "concealment".
    Oh, I hadn't come across that one yet. Can you give me the KRS for that definition?

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    Unfettered Might wrote:
    aegri_mentis wrote:
    A change in body position that is not intended soley to conceal the weapon is not "concealment".
    Oh, I hadn't come across that one yet. Can you give me the KRS for that definition?
    It's common sense.

    If body positioning and/objects not under your control hide your weapon, it's not an act of concealment.

    If this was the case, and you were OCing in walmart, and let's say and endcap display stuck out past the traveled portion of the aisle you were in. You are standing right behind the protruding portion of the endcap. An officer approaches you from the front, and the right half of your body is "hidden" by the endcap. The officer cannot see your weapon, which is OCed on your right hip. This is not concealed.

    The same thing applies to you getting inyour car to operate it. You are not getting into your car to conceal your weapon. You are getting into your car to operate it.



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    superdemon wrote:
    Unfettered Might wrote:
    aegri_mentis wrote:
    A change in body position that is not intended soley to conceal the weapon is not "concealment".
    Oh, I hadn't come across that one yet. Can you give me the KRS for that definition?
    It's common sense.

    If body positioning and/objects not under your control hide your weapon, it's not an act of concealment.

    If this was the case, and you were OCing in walmart, and let's say and endcap display stuck out past the traveled portion of the aisle you were in. You are standing right behind the protruding portion of the endcap. An officer approaches you from the front, and the right half of your body is "hidden" by the endcap. The officer cannot see your weapon, which is OCed on your right hip. This is not concealed.

    The same thing applies to you getting inyour car to operate it. You are not getting into your car to conceal your weapon. You are getting into your car to operate it.

    Oh I completely agree it's common sense, but having common sense isn't a prerequisite for being a LEO. Especially if I were to run into an arrest happy rookie looking to make a name for himself.

    Forgive me if I don't place much faith in the common sense of others, I would prefer the general assembly having made a determination for the idiots.





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    For those without a CCDW, feel free to test various methods OC within a car and let me know how that works out for you. Even though you might be in the technical or legal right (if even that--no KRS has been cited yet as to the definition of concealment), you might end up as a test case in court. If those are your intentions, more power to you. Just note that this is somewhat of a gray issue that could very well find its way into court.

    For those of you without a CCDW that don't want to play "LEO roulette", just put the gun in the glove box.

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    No I don't think I will lol. I can find where "on one or about ones person" is defined but no definition for "concealed", seems to be a grave oversight to me.

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    Wow! This query has become just as complexing as the previous "Shoulder Rig" query sometime back. *LOL* In the end it seems it all comes down tojust how readilyone might need their sidearm to be available to them while traveling. For example, it's a proven fact that the daylight hours are commonly the least dangerous of times, while twilight through early morning are times that place you more at risk. Granted, the physical locale in which you're traveling will also play a large part in how dangerous and the level of risk.

    OK, I personally carry my sidearm with me whenever I go out, where in specific my sidearm is, depends upon many factors. If I'm going to work in the daylight hours, the gun is stowed as per the glove compartment, when I start home at night, the gun is laid on the front passenger seat in the holster. Now, if I'm not working then I might be OC'ingor I might not, it all depends. If, say, I'm traveling outside my home area and into an area I am unfamiliar with at night, like Louisville or some areas of Lexington, then I'll either be OC'ing or the gun will be unholstered and in the passengers seat. If it's during the daylight hours and I'm familiar with the area, I'll either be OC'ing or the sidearm will be stowed or possibly on the passenger's seat. All of this is to simple say though that there are different options and ideas for different situations, times, and places.

    There are only 2 obvious legal places to put your sidearm inside your vehicle, the glove compartment or the front passenger seat. Of course, if you're leaving your car, the sidearm would of course be placed in the glove compartment otherwise you're just asking for your car to be broken into and your gun to be stolen, if not the gun and the car.
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    @Neuro: I definitely agree--except with your two "obvious" places for open carry within a vehicle. Storing a gun in the glovebox is completely legal for just about any citizen. This mode of carry is defined in KRS. I would agree that open carrying a handgun on the passenger seat should be legal and in reality IS legal, however I'm sure there would be an idiot LEO out there somewhere that would argue otherwise. While someone may win in the judicial system over this type of carry.

    While it may be obvious to you and me, it might not be to some LEOs.

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    On the dash is legal. On the seat is legal but could be a cop call. In the glove box is legal. Carry on your hip and let me know how it turns out.

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    Thank you all for the reply's, tho I think neuroblades got most of it stright so to speak.

    Question: Dose anyone know the KRS for:

    1. KRS For a person under 21 to carry a handgun / Minor possission?

    2. KRS for anything else you think I as being under 21 would be handy to have with me?

    3. I have searched KRS for something containing Open Carry but I don't think there is such a statue other than just saying Plain View.

    Thank you all one more time

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    Sorry so late but I speak from experience. I had my weapon "HOT" on the passanger seat and got hit on a traffic stop. Informed LEO immediately that I had a loaded 9mm in my passenger seat in plain sight, at that point he looked for it and saw it. By immediately, I mean before he even had a chance to say much.. he approached my window and I informed him. Had both hands spread open on the steering wheel.

    I had no trouble other than he wanted to "secure the weapon" during the traffic stop, and actually talked to me about the OC. He likes the idea of good citizens open carrying, and he did before he was an officer.

    We parted ways in a good manner, other than my Car Registration Expired "fix-it ticket". But painless indeed. So mine stays in the passenger seat.... no fear at all of having it there.

    I drive a 92 mustang gt (Fox Body) so it is somewhat low sitting and a tall LEO would not see in my passenger seat from a full standing position.. that is not my fault though that he is tall.. If I am taking a duty to inform, and it is in plain sight, there is no confusion on concealment....
    I got a gun for my wife.. good trade!

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    @Neuro: I definitely agree--except with your two "obvious" places for open carry within a vehicle. Storing a gun in the glovebox is completely legal for just about any citizen. This mode of carry is defined in KRS. I would agree that open carrying a handgun on the passenger seat should be legal and in reality IS legal, however I'm sure there would be an idiot LEO out there somewhere that would argue otherwise. While someone may win in the judicial system over this type of carry.

    While it may be obvious to you and me, it might not be to some LEOs.
    I agree with you.
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    thirdwatch2007 wrote:
    Thank you all for the reply's, tho I think neuroblades got most of it stright so to speak.

    Question: Dose anyone know the KRS for:

    1. KRS For a person under 21 to carry a handgun / Minor possission?

    2. KRS for anything else you think I as being under 21 would be handy to have with me?

    3. I have searched KRS for something containing Open Carry but I don't think there is such a statue other than just saying Plain View.

    Thank you all one more time

    Well, this isn't the "final word", so to speak, but it should give you a push in the right direction, hopefully.

    http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/527-00/CHAPTER.HTM

    Look under the heading "Minors and Juveniles", the main one to look at starting off would be KRS 527.100 & 527.110.

    In an actually encounter with LEO or other individuals, it's best to beAUTHORITIVE, DIRECT, KNOWLEDGEABLE, & POLITE!!! These 4 factors can mean all the difference between an educational encounter or going to jail! Here's an example of this in action on one of my recent visits to Wal Mart:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum25/37030.html

    Granted, an encounter with a LEO will really test how calm you can be, just make sure that you're within the legal rights and NEVER cop an attitude, excuse the pun. *LOL*

    If you're freaking out and nervous, they will notice it and that will lead them to look at you in a different light than if you keep your cool, answer their questions SIMPLY, no lengthy answers! If you see that they're NOT accepting what you're saying, Don't push the point and just accept your first chance to leave and fight it another day. Notice the name(s) of the officer(s) for future correspondence, either to praise them or to pan them to their bosses later.

    As someone wrote to me, "When people don't know the law, they key off of the other persons reactions and actions." This is mainly in reference to non-LEO but it applies to LEO just as well, afterall, they are people also.


    Additionally, you might want to read through these as well:

    http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/237-00/CHAPTER.HTM

    You can NEVER know too much in relationship to this matter.

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    This thread got much more confusing as it went on.

    Mainly from my point of view, it was people continuously wanting to be "precisely, and pedantically" more correct than someone else.

    My question is "what's most reasonable"?

    If I don't have CCW, should I keep my pistol on me, or in the glove box, or in the seat?

    I have been putting it in the glove box. Just to be certain that I can't get in trouble.

    All it takes is ONE mistake.

    The prosecutor and the judge are going to be less concerned over my loss of rights than they are getting the money from the fines and penalties.

    I'd rather be certain that I'm not going to get into a situation where I lose my right to own ANY firearm, let alone the one I am carrying in my car.

    Right???Little issues like this, and the "shirt falling over the pistol" are the reasons I have decided to pay for my CCW license.

    I'm going to carry the same as I have been. At least this way I know I can't get into a bad situation that could put my rights at risk.

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