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EAST BAY MEET UP :-) Livermore PLANNING FOR 1-2-10 - Saturday

N6ATF

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Almost sounds like they've taken a page out of the SDPD playbook in regards to UOC events. Except they aren't trying to entrap you guys by having the (e) checks IN A GOVERNMENT BUILDING in violation of PC 171(b).

I guess the semi-public location (an alley? out of sight of the main street? gimme a break!) is one step up...

I say split up and let them violate your 4A right at spread out (place and time) intervals. More people will see you being "let go" than in an alley.
 

ConditionThree

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Livermoron wrote:
I would like to be a good will ambassador on behalf of the UOC crowd... I will choose to be a bit more flexible and help extend the olive branch to the folks wearing the badges (up to or until I have an "unprofessional encounter").



Liv- You're probably playing it correctly. We do need to establish good relations with police, and by cooperating it would give them a sense of what lawfully armed people are about- Im sure that most of the time when they check for weapons, it is usually as a result of an encounter with a criminal and this could acclimate their department to activists/ambassadors who are on their side and share the desire to be the deterent to criminal behavior.

Perhaps we should give them one (e) check under their terms (all lined up, orderly, subject to approval)... after that, I'd say that if they wanted to conduct another (e) check, they will need to do it as is, where is- under the scrutiny of bystanders.
 

onedavetoomany

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Livermoron wrote:
Hi All,

As a resident of Livermore ("Livermoron", duh) I don't mind doing the "e check" this time with any officer that may show up. We all know it violates our rights (no matter how the CA PC reads). That being said, I would like to be a good will ambassador on behalf of the UOC crowd. :D Also, this will be "in public", just a block down the street from the meetup location.

Wait - This does not mean I will choose to "roll over" on the issue(s) involved. To meet some of the local officers in a "friendly setting" seems like a good (even if not required) idea to kick things off. Familiar faces, hand shakes, etc.

I, of course, FULLY support :) all of you who choose not to "line up" for the e-check. However, as this meetup is "out of the bag", the PD will be around and likely enforcing the CA PC. Thus, the likelihood of being stopped and e-checked is high anyway. In this case, why not make it a "meet-and-greet" instead of a us/them thing?

As more and more of us take to the streets carrying in our day to day lives the perceived stigma by the general public and LE will wear off and we can happily exercise our rights without as many hassles :cool:. Until then, I will choose to be a bit more flexible and help extend the olive branch to the folks wearing the badges (up to or until I have an "unprofessional encounter").

This does not mean I will place a phone call to an officer whenever I UOC. I was UOC tonight on my way home from Manteca. I went to get gas here in town, checked my mail, etc. Then had to lock it up as I got closer to home as I live in a GFSZ :banghead: .

I truly hope to see MANY of you out here in Livermore tomorrow for the meetup. Please do not be put off by the likely LE presence. You are going to encounter a LEO at some point while UOC. If you have not yet, and want to "pop the (insert name of well known fruit here)", then show up a little early and "...come on down, you're the next contestant on E-Check!" :lol:

Carry On,

Livermoron :cool:


Great Explanation. These are my feelings as well.
 

AdnanShahab

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I have to drive out from Fremont, but I will try to be there by 10:30 for the 12031(e) check. When it comes to awesome ambassadors, I believe I fit the bill pretty well. :)
 

RaycerX96

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Im all for letting them e check. I know how anal LPD can be sometimes. I do know that some officers will let things slide if you are cool with them, they will remember everyone who UOCs, if we cooperate with them (to an extent) they will remember that and more likely treat anyone who UOCs with a common respect.
 

RaycerX96

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Freedom_Is_Popular wrote:
Happy New Year!

A friend that plans to attend tomorrow's meeting informed me that officers' from the LPD have requested that open carriers meet with them prior to the beginning of the demonstration to conduct a 12031 (e) check, as oppose to doing so in front of Panama Red Coffee, which is a high traffic location with lots of people present.

LPD Cpt. Scott Trudeau has agreed that the meeting with officers will only involve the 12031 (e) check, andnothing else.

My friend and several others that plan to participate have already agreed to meet with LPD officers at around 10:30-10:45 AM in an alley way just north-westof the Panama Red Coffee Company location.

The alley way is between 2058 and 2068 1st Street, Livermore. The alley wayconnects to a shopping center parking lot.

SeeHERE
That alley way is across the street from the coffee house. I wont even be parking near there.
 

bigtoe416

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onedavetoomany wrote:
I think the issue here is that some of the people open carrying reside in Livermore and would like to avoid negative interactions with the police department to the extent that it's possible. The fact that the police agreed to ONLY the (e) check is why it's being considered. Supposedly, the police are aware of the law and will not be asking for ID or running serial numbers.
This is entirely the wrong attitude in my opinion. You're making it seem like we're doing something wrong, we are not. The police don't get to check our IDs or run our serial numbers unless they come into plain view and even then they can't detain you while they run it. It's like we're not even exercising a right, we're getting permission to follow the law, while at the same time being happy that the police will follow the law and not willfully violate it.

The police know we're carrying unloaded. We'd be complete idiots to post a meetup time and then show up carrying loaded. They are requesting that we meet them in an alley beforehand for a variety of reasons. One, it gives them control of the situation. We are going to them. Two, we get to submit to a seizure of our property and person. Three, they get to size us up before we are released into the wild. Four, they get to seize us in a more controlled environment that they are dictating versus doing it wherever we happen to be.

This will be a poor use of taxpayers' money and it will most likely be an intelligence gathering session for Livermore PD. I wouldn't submit to any police interaction before going to a church or temple, I wouldn't submit to any police interaction before voicing my opinions, and I won't voluntarily submit myself to any police interaction before fully complying with the laws of carrying an unloaded firearm.
 

coolusername2007

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Freedom_Is_Popular wrote:
A friend that plans to attend tomorrow's meeting informed me that officers' from the LPD have requested that open carriers meet with them prior to the beginning of the demonstration to conduct a 12031 (e) check, as oppose to doing so in front of Panama Red Coffee, which is a high traffic location with lots of people present.

LPD Cpt. Scott Trudeau has agreed that the meeting with officers will only involve the 12031 (e) check, andnothing else.

What the hell?! No friggin way! Screw that! Free men and women don't ask for permission! Is LPD Cpt Scott Trudeau aware that the 12031(e) check and the entire Mulford Act is completely race-based?! Not to mention highly likelyunconstitutional!

If anyone wants to be a good ambassador for the UOC movement DO NOT comply with these demands. There is everything to gain to being violated (e-checked) and released in full public view and nothing to gain whatsoever by beingviolated in a secluded, controlled environment. What a ridiculous suggestion for something that isn't arequirement.

I can't believe some are even considering accommodating this request. Just goes to show how insidious political correctness is and how far it has gone.
 

coolusername2007

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onedavetoomany wrote:
I think the issue here is that some of the people open carrying reside in Livermore and would like to avoid negative interactions with the police department to the extent that it's possible. The fact that the police agreed to ONLY the (e) check is why it's being considered. Supposedly, the police are aware of the law and will not be asking for ID or running serial numbers.

We now know the police read this forum and know about the meetup. This means there will be an (e) check at some point whether we like it or not. Personally, I'd prefer to get it over with right away.

We've known the police read this forum for quite some time now. This isn't anything new. In fact, the mere fact that they know of this event from this board is all the more reason to NOT conduct wholly racist, and completelydiscretionary e-checks.

Of the 4 monthly meetups we've organized down here in the southland, not a single one had LEO's show up and e-check us. And that's the way it should be.
 

coolusername2007

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ConditionThree wrote:
Livermoron wrote:
I would like to be a good will ambassador on behalf of the UOC crowd... I will choose to be a bit more flexible and help extend the olive branch to the folks wearing the badges (up to or until I have an "unprofessional encounter").



Liv- You're probably playing it correctly. We do need to establish good relations with police, and by cooperating it would give them a sense of what lawfully armed people are about- Im sure that most of the time when they check for weapons, it is usually as a result of an encounter with a criminal and this could acclimate their department to activists/ambassadors who are on their side and share the desire to be the deterent to criminal behavior.

Perhaps we should give them one (e) check under their terms (all lined up, orderly, subject to approval)... after that, I'd say that if they wanted to conduct another (e) check, they will need to do it as is, where is- under the scrutiny of bystanders.
I seriously cannot believe what I'm reading! Unloaded open carry and 12031(e) checks are an abomination...they're to be loathed and abhorred, its anabuse of state power and infringes on your protected liberties granted to you by your Creator, not your government. But don't take my word for it...


"When the People fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the People there is liberty." -- Thomas Jefferson
 

Livermoron

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Hi All,

Again, to be completely clear, on principal I DO AGREE with coolusername2007's opinion(s) he voices in his post tonight (above). I, of course, agree that 4A is grossly violated EVERY TIME an e-check is performed. Damn CA PC... :cuss: Of course UOC is lawful! Of course we do not need permission! We all know why the laws were changed in the late 1960's! :cry:

However, I personally am choosing to go along with the suggestion (not demand) that the LPD made for the early e-check before the meetup. It is loosely being held in a public location near the meetup location. This is not a closed off and dark alley-way, but a nice wide area adjacent to businesses and the main street through town. FYI - Also not in a GFSZ.

Further, I am sure that at some point in the day I would be e-checked anyway (or tomorrow, or the next day, etc.) around town. Again, I live here :?. Others that may show up during the day, I imagine, seem to be likely candidates for an e-check while enjoying their coffee or having food at one of the fine vendors in town. BTW the 1st Street Ale House has REALLY good burgers :D.

Until California law(s) are substantially changed we will have to keep the bile down, and submit ourselves (when demanded to do so) to an e-check by LEO's :banghead: . I don't mind as much, for now, doing a "friendly" one while biting my tongue.

Gentlemen (and Ladies - you know who you are), please don't think less of me for my somewhat reluctant cooperation during this meetup :). I am a rabid 2A (and all the rest of course) supporter and will stand, AND NOT BACK DOWN, with all of you when needed on the issues that affect our rights. I send in my extra $100 each year to NRA-ILA and $ to other "gun causes" during the year. My cooperation comes in this instance based on a courteous request from LPD. A "demand" would have been met with a kind, "See you a Panama Red, good day".

See you in Livermore.

Carry On,

Livermoron :cool:
 

bigtoe416

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Livermoron wrote:
Until California law(s) are substantially changed we will have to keep the bile down, and submit ourselves (when demanded to do so) to an e-check by LEO's :banghead: . I don't mind as much, for now, doing a "friendly" one while biting my tongue.

Gentlemen (and Ladies - you know who you are), please don't think less of me for my somewhat reluctant cooperation during this meetup :). I am a rabid 2A (and all the rest of course) supporter and will stand, AND NOT BACK DOWN, with all of you when needed on the issues that affect our rights. I send in my extra $100 each year to NRA-ILA and $ to other "gun causes" during the year. My cooperation comes in this instance based on a courteous request from LPD. A "demand" would have been met with a kind, "See you a Panama Red, good day".
I guess the part I still don't understand is why some of us feel like we aren't being friendly or cooperative unless we go out of our way to make it easy for police officers to violate our fourth amendment rights.

Of course the police cannot demand that we meet them in such and such location to be 12031(e) checked. They aren't stupid, they know that if they phrased this request as a demand that nobody would show up.

I sometimes momentarily forget that nearly everywhere else in our country citizens are allowed to carry loaded firearms WITHOUT any permission slip. Meanwhile here in California we aren't allowed to carry loaded unless we live in a county with a reasonable sheriff or if we're significant campaign contributors, or somehow our life is more important than somebody else's. And while we're carrying unloaded we also get the pleasure of having our unloaded firearms inspected to verify that they are unloaded. Having a loaded firearm is our right. Being secure from unreasonable searches and seizures of our person and property is our right.

A police officer isn't in some class different from you or I. He or she is just a normal citizen with a different job than what we have. I cannot seize you or your property unless I am arresting you. Terry gave police officers the ability to detain people if they are reasonable suspected of having committed a crime or about to commit a crime. We have to submit to these transgressions of our person by statute. I feel that by going out of our way to be seized and searched that we are establishing ourselves as being in a separate class than police officers are in, and I don't want to contribute to that notion.

If you support our second amendment rights, support our fourth amendment rights and don't willingly let government agents coerce you into treating you as if you are doing something wrong.
 

Livermoron

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Good morning all :D

I want to address bigtoe416, and a few others that have posted recently, by saying I do not feel that I am "going out of my way" to cooperate with the nearly certain e-check this morning in Livermore.

I will be parking in the general area and then walking to the meetup at Panama Red. I was going to walk through the "gauntlet" ;) anyway. As this meetup is in a very public setting the likelihood of the e-check was high so I came to the conclusion that I would treat the LEO interaction as an opportunity (while choaking on the bile of my 4A rights being trampled) to meet more of the LEO's here in my home town.

My hope is that my "cooperation" does not turn out to be in vain. Going forward I do not plan to "go out of my way" in this manner but would hope to have acceptance and reciprocal cooperation by the local LE.

I have spent much time lately reading and watching video from around the country and have seen the many terrible and unprofessional LEO interactions that have been posted :banghead:. However, I have also seen and read about several interactions where the LEO approaches and says, "...Good morning, are you UOC'ing?... Thanks, have a good day." - No physical e-check. This is what I hope for the future in my home town (and yours). :)

Changing the direction of the topic a bit - - - Does anyone know a local (or anywhere in CA) candidate that is a Constitutionalist, or at least a true Conservative, that will stand up to put forth legislation in CA, or nationally, that will negate the PC 12031e and other statutes that violate our right to keep and bear arms? If so, let me know and I will support their effort to achieve the office.

Carry On :cool:

Livermoron
 

A ECNALG

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Livermoron wrote:
Changing the direction of the topic a bit - - - Does anyone know a local (or anywhere in CA) candidate that is a Constitutionalist, or at least a true Conservative, that will stand up to put forth legislation in CA, or nationally, that will negate the PC 12031e and other statutes that violate our right to keep and bear arms? If so, let me know and I will support their effort to achieve the office.
Though not a legislator's position, you can look here for a pro-2A candidate:

http://www.nightingaleforgovernor.com/
 

bigtoe416

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Livermoron wrote:
I will be parking in the general area and then walking to the meetup at Panama Red. I was going to walk through the "gauntlet" ;) anyway. As this meetup is in a very public setting the likelihood of the e-check was high so I came to the conclusion that I would treat the LEO interaction as an opportunity (while choaking on the bile of my 4A rights being trampled) to meet more of the LEO's here in my home town.
Seems reasonable to me. Of course, if the police officers aren't there I hope you don't feel obligated to wait around for them.

I've previously not open carried at an event because of the requests going around to stand down. For this event I will be carrying solely because Livermore PD has decided to police our presence. I hope other departments (like San Jose) will choose to allow us to exist without being contacted provided that we act in a normal manner.

Hope everybody drives safely.
 

coolusername2007

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bigtoe416 wrote:
Livermoron wrote:
I will be parking in the general area and then walking to the meetup at Panama Red. I was going to walk through the "gauntlet" ;) anyway. As this meetup is in a very public setting the likelihood of the e-check was high so I came to the conclusion that I would treat the LEO interaction as an opportunity (while choaking on the bile of my 4A rights being trampled) to meet more of the LEO's here in my home town.
Seems reasonable to me. Of course, if the police officers aren't there I hope you don't feel obligated to wait around for them.

I've previously not open carried at an event because of the requests going around to stand down. For this event I will be carrying solely because Livermore PD has decided to police our presence. I hope other departments (like San Jose) will choose to allow us to exist without being contacted provided that we act in a normal manner.

Hope everybody drives safely.

I would walk a different route. I will never ever make it easy for them to violate my 4A rights, especially when the intent is to disarm me, and that is exactly what the Mulford act and 12031e is all about...disarmament.
 
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