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    Regular Member jgross85's Avatar
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    Hey im new to the forum and just want to know if some one could tell me if it is illegal to put a buttstock on a 12.5 or 14.5inch ar15 and if so why thanks for your time

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard.

    - Hmm, i will have to research the federal laws to see if i can find accurate info.

    Glad to have ya.

    Bat
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    not in this state, if you do, it then becomes a SBR (short barreled rifle) which are forbidden in this state as per RCW. if it is a pistol, you are also not allowed to have a vertical grip on the front of it, otherwise it is an AOW...again, not allowed in this state.

    you can, however, own a supressor/silencer...just not allowed to use it

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    5jeffro7 wrote:
    not in this state, if you do, it then becomes a SBR (short barreled rifle) which are forbidden in this state as per RCW.Â* if it is a pistol, you are also not allowed to have a vertical grip on the front of it, otherwise it is an AOW...again, not allowed in this state.

    you can, however, own a supressor/silencer...just not allowed to use it
    You have a cite for your AOW claim? As well as a vertical grip causing a pistol to classified as an AOW.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    5jeffro7 wrote:
    Well here is one for you.

    http://tinyurl.com/yeefn7w

    Having said that where is the cite that says an AOW is illegal in Wa?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member 5jeffro7's Avatar
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    having said that, you can go find it yourself ---> hint, use the second link

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    Uh I don't think that means what you think it means.

    How does that apply to Wa. law?

    Oh wait it doesn't because AOW's are legal in Wa.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member 5jeffro7's Avatar
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    youu go ahead and think what you want, I contacted the AG office about a year ago & was informed that AOW's were not allowed in this state, but since you seem to know the law, you go ahead and make an AOW, I won't be visiting you in prison.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.220
    Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.

    [/b]All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.




    --- and ---





    RCW 9.41.190
    Unlawful firearms — Exceptions.

    [/b](1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

    (2) This section shall not apply to:

    (a) Any peace officer in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty, or to any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty; or

    (b) A person, including an employee of such person if the employee has undergone fingerprinting and a background check, who or which is exempt from or licensed under federal law, and engaged in the production, manufacture, repair, or testing of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles:

    (i) To be used or purchased by the armed forces of the United States;

    (ii) To be used or purchased by federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agencies; or

    (iii) For exportation in compliance with all applicable federal laws and regulations.

    (3) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law.

    (4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190

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    5jeffro7 wrote:
    youu go ahead and think what you want, I contacted the AG office about a year ago & was informed that AOW's were not allowed in this state, but since you seem to know the law, you go ahead and make an AOW, I won't be visiting you in prison.
    AOWs are legal in WA. The Serbu Super Shorty has been purchased by at least one person I know. As long as it wasn't built from an existing shotgun it's ok, but I digress. AOWs are ok here, just not SBRs, SBSs or machine guns.

    If you make one, you of course have to pay the $200 to the ATF, fill out the forms, and wait however many months it takes. Plus convince the chief LEO to sign it or create an NFA trust or a corporation.

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    5jeffro7 wrote:
    youu go ahead and think what you want, I contacted the AG office about a year ago & was informed that AOW's were not allowed in this state, but since you seem to know the law, you go ahead and make an AOW, I won't be visiting you in prison.
    Your right you won't, because I would not be violating the law.

    I'm not sure who you talked to but the AG's office is not allowed to give legal advice to the citizens of the state. This is one of the many reasons why. Maybe researching the subject besides talking to the AG's office, which is obviously wrong, would be in your best interest.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...2&t=458387
    U.S. Department of Justice

    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
    Firearms and Explosives


    Washington, DC 20226


    Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

    “Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

    Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

    The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

    ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

    To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

    A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.
    Just need to pay your tax stamp.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    OP was asking about butt stock on an AR-pistol, and though the info regarding the verticalpistol-grip is interesting, maybe we should revert to the OP-Q, and preferably with legit info and links opposed to arguments and banter.

    Bat
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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    We really need the suppressor laws changed in this State.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    gsx1138 wrote:
    We really need the suppressor laws changed in this State.
    Amen

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    Batousaii wrote:
    OP was asking about butt stock on an AR-pistol, and though the info regarding the verticalpistol-grip is interesting, maybe we should revert to the OP-Q, and preferably with legit info and links opposed to arguments and banter.

    Bat
    He already received the correct answer for that.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    Batousaii wrote:
    RCW 9.41.220
    Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.

    All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.
    Isn't the above highlighted part in direct violation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878?!?
    Very interesting. How do they plan on forcing the US military to carry out this act when they have no authority over them?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    The question hasnt been answered:

    "Hey im new to the forum and just want to know if some one could tell me if it is illegal to put a buttstock on a 12.5 or 14.5inch ar15 and if so why thanks for your time "

    Thats TWO questions:

    1.) why do you have an AR with an illegal length barrell in the first place? 16.5 is the minimum if I recall correctly

    2.) changing the butt DOES NOT change the barrel length.


    A vertical fore grip DOES NOT change a rifle to a pistol. The ATF paper says "originally manufactured as a pistol..."

    Its just a matter of reading the Law and not reading extra material into it.

    Pistol means exactly that.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    He doesn't have an AR (or pistol variant), [yes i know this for a fact], he was just asking a question in regards to a potential future purchase. There are AR-15 pistols, they have 6" 10" and other various (legal) lengths, all legal for public sale. I can easily see how someone would wonder "why" they cant put a butt stock on one of those AR-pistols, as they even have the tube assembly sticking out (yeah, i know it's just fully round and no locking holes)... but still looks like it would accept a stock, so curiosity might occur...

    Politeness and etiquette,rather than assertive assumptions, would be a preferable means of conveying or offering a reply.

    :?Bat


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    After Katrina, Didnt thenational gaurdenforce martial law and confiscate ALL guns?

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...q=katrina+conf
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    amzbrady wrote:
    After Katrina, Didnt theÂ*national gaurdÂ*enforce martial law and confiscate ALL guns?

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...q=katrina+conf
    Martial Law is a different beast in itself. I heard there is a provision for Posse Comitatus to be suspended under martial law.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Capn Camo wrote:
    The question hasnt been answered:

    "Hey im new to the forum and just want to know if some one could tell me if it is illegal to put a buttstock on a 12.5 or 14.5inch ar15 and if so why thanks for your time "

    Thats TWO questions:

    1.) why do you have an AR with an illegal length barrell in the first place? 16.5 is the minimum if I recall correctly

    2.) changing the butt DOES NOT change the barrel length.


    A vertical fore grip DOES NOT change a rifle to a pistol. The ATF paper says "originally manufactured as a pistol..."

    Its just a matter of reading the Law and not reading extra material into it.

    Pistol means exactly that.
    Actually it is a barrel length of 16". Many add the 1/2" jsut to make sure someone that has a funny tape measure doesn't think the barrel is too short. (IIRC, Randy Weaver was subjected to a bad measurement that started the whole mess he got into)

    Any AR-15 Pistol has a lower reciever branded as "Pistol" or is registered with the BATF as a Pistol. Adding a fixed stock to a pistol creates an AOW as it can't become a rifle (remember the lower reciever markings?). Even if you COULD LEGALLY create a rifle then the WA State SBR law comes into effect.

    Just buy a Sig 5.56 Pistol. No stock is required and it doesn't have the extended buffer tube that gets in the way. Oh, by the way, adding a crutch tip to the end of the buffer tube could be considered by some in enforcement as making it into a stock.
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    amlevin wrote:
    Capn Camo wrote:
    The question hasnt been answered:

    "Hey im new to the forum and just want to know if some one could tell me if it is illegal to put a buttÂ*stock on a 12.5 or 14.5Â*inch ar15 and if so why thanks for your timeÂ* "

    Thats TWO questions:

    1.) why do you have an AR with an illegal length barrell in the first place? 16.5 is the minimum if I recall correctly

    2.) changing the butt DOES NOT change the barrel length.


    A vertical fore grip DOES NOT change a rifle to a pistol. The ATF paper says "originally manufactured as a pistol..."

    Its just a matter of reading the Law and not reading extra material into it.

    Pistol means exactly that.
    Actually it is a barrel length of 16".Â* Many add the 1/2" jsut to make sure someone that has a funny tape measure doesn't think the barrel is too short.Â* (IIRC, Randy Weaver was subjected to a bad measurement that started the whole mess he got into)

    Any AR-15 Pistol has a lower reciever branded as "Pistol" or is registered with the BATF as a Pistol.Â* Adding a fixed stock to a pistol creates an AOW as it can't become a rifle (remember the lower reciever markings?).Â* Even if you COULD LEGALLY create a rifle then the WA State SBR law comes into effect.

    Just buy a Sig 5.56 Pistol.Â* No stock is required and it doesn't have the extended buffer tube that gets in the way.Â* Oh, by the way, adding a crutch tip to the end of the buffer tube could be considered by some in enforcement as making it into a stock.
    Adding a crutch tip to a buffer tube would by definition of law turn it into a rifle. Remember a rifle is a firearm that has a barrel of at least 16 inches and is designed to be shoulder fired. This crutch tip would make it designed, whether by a manufacture or individual, to be shoulder fired. Would it not?


    edited: I misread previous post.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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