in praise of the .380

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a few comparison photos

.45 Long colt and .22 Long Rifle

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sorry DP

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Makarov 9x18 - .45LC - .30 M1 Carbine

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I've searched and searched, but am unable to find the story of the gentleman that used an eight shot .22 revolver as a "travel gun".

An elderly gentleman and his wife were on a trip and came across a vehicle that had slid into a ditch. Seeing a man standing by the side of the road, the elderly man pulled over to ask if the guy needed assistance. As his wife rolled down the window on her passenger side, the man opened the door, pulled a knife, and began stabbing her. The elderly gentleman reached into the map pocket of his driver's door, grasped his .22 caliber eight shot revolver, exited his vehicle....

.....and emptied the revolver into the assailant.

The assailant then ran around the rear of the vehicle and stabbed the man repeatedly before running away.

I believe both the assailant and the man's wife died and the gentleman was critically injured.

I believe it was found that the man hit the assailant with six of the eight rounds fired from his pistol.

SIX ROUNDS.

Does anyone honestly believe that the man would have walked around the rear of the vehicle and continued his bloody assault had the elderly man hit him with sixrounds of .45 ACP? Heck, since the man evidently preferred a revolver, what do you think about six rounds of .357 magnum?

Yes, the assailant died. But he did it after he finished his evil crime.

I want something a little more reliable at making them stop before they accomplish their goal.

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Superlite27 wrote:

I've searched and searched, but am unable to find the story of the gentleman that used an eight shot .22 revolver as a "travel gun".

An elderly gentleman and his wife were on a trip and came across a vehicle that had slid into a ditch. Seeing a man standing by the side of the road, the elderly man pulled over to ask if the guy needed assistance. As his wife rolled down the window on her passenger side, the man opened the door, pulled a knife, and began stabbing her. The elderly gentleman reached into the map pocket of his driver's door, grasped his .22 caliber eight shot revolver, exited his vehicle....

.....and emptied the revolver into the assailant.

The assailant then ran around the rear of the vehicle and stabbed the man repeatedly before running away.

I believe both the assailant and the man's wife died and the gentleman was critically injured.

I believe it was found that the man hit the assailant with six of the eight rounds fired from his pistol.

SIX ROUNDS.

Does anyone honestly believe that the man would have walked around the rear of the vehicle and continued his bloody assault had the elderly man hit him with sixrounds of .45 ACP? Heck, since the man evidently preferred a revolver, what do you think about six rounds of .357 magnum?

Yes, the assailant died. But he did it after he finished his evil crime.

I want something a little more reliable at making them stop before they accomplish their goal.

Click to expand...

My first observation of the incident you mention, I have to ask,why the elderly gentleman didn't open fire from within the vehicle, rather than wasting time exiting before shooting the perp?

Another queston I have is how much alcohol/drugs did the assailant have in his system. He must have been impaired, since he ran his car off the road. This would also suggest that he was impervious to pain at the time he was shot. I would contend that if this was the case, even 6 rounds of .45 acp or LC wouldn't have stopped the slasher. Unless you hit the right spot.

It sounds to me like the elderly gentleman in this scenarion was a poor shot. Only hitting his target 6 out of 8 times at close range? Perhaps his lack of accuracy with his weapon of choice cost his wife her life. Had his first couple of rounds been aimed at the assailants head and found their mark there, the attack would have been stopped much sooner.

I would suggest that it isn't the size of the bullet that stops a threat, but rather the pain that its impact and penetration inflicts on the person being shot. Granted, being shot with a .22 vs .45 would be like getting an injection with a 20 gauge needle vs 14 gauge. The smaller bullet/needle won't hurt as bad as the larger bullet/needle. If the BG is anethisized by drugs/alcohol/adreneline he may not feel any pain regardless of what cal you shoot him with. Therefore, it may be necessary to go for the head shot if rounds to COM don't slow/stop the BG.

That is why I believe, and many on this forums will agree, that shot placement/accuracy may be more important than cal of gun used for SD.

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Superlite27 wrote:

I've searched and searched, but am unable to find the story of the gentleman that used an eight shot .22 revolver as a "travel gun".

An elderly gentleman and his wife were on a trip and came across a vehicle that had slid into a ditch. Seeing a man standing by the side of the road, the elderly man pulled over to ask if the guy needed assistance. As his wife rolled down the window on her passenger side, the man opened the door, pulled a knife, and began stabbing her. The elderly gentleman reached into the map pocket of his driver's door, grasped his .22 caliber eight shot revolver, exited his vehicle....

.....and emptied the revolver into the assailant.

The assailant then ran around the rear of the vehicle and stabbed the man repeatedly before running away.

I believe both the assailant and the man's wife died and the gentleman was critically injured.

I believe it was found that the man hit the assailant with six of the eight rounds fired from his pistol.

SIX ROUNDS.

Does anyone honestly believe that the man would have walked around the rear of the vehicle and continued his bloody assault had the elderly man hit him with sixrounds of .45 ACP? Heck, since the man evidently preferred a revolver, what do you think about six rounds of .357 magnum?

Yes, the assailant died. But he did it after he finished his evil crime.

I want something a little more reliable at making them stop before they accomplish their goal.

Click to expand...

My guess is the guy's wife died not because he used a .22, but because he wasted time getting out of the car before he started shooting.

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I know I'm preaching to the choir.....

Those of us interested in defense of ourselves and loved ones have no interest in lethality... we are only interested in stopping someone/some animal from attacking. It the outcome is a lethal event it certainly wasn't our goal or expected result.

There are only 3 ways for a bullet to stop an attacker... animal or human.

1. What is known as a "psychological" stop where the attacker cognitively realizes they have been shot and makes the voluntary decision to stop. Major damage is not necessary for this kind of stop to happen. This kind of stop may, may not, happen at any time during the attack.

2. Blood loss. Enough damage has been done to the circulatory system or enough internal damage has been done to cause massive blood loss... so much blood loss that no more blood reaches the brain (stopping the heart also results in no blood to the brain) and the brain shuts down. This kind of stop can still take up to many minutes before enough blood is lost... minutes during which the attack can continue.

3. Damage to the nervous system is enough to cause either immobility (spinal cord above the shoulders) or the brain itself is damaged causing it to shut down. This kind of stop is the only one that is immediate.

#'s 1. and 2. can be achieved with less than perfect accuracy.

#3. requires exceptional accuracy under stress because the targets are much smaller than the body.

Please note that all 3 involve the brain in some way.

Please note that all 3 can be achieved with any size bullet put in the right place(s).

Because a self defense situation rarely allows careful aiming and perfect trigger control the center of mass (chest) is generally the largest available spot.

Yet it is still most important for the bullet(s) to hit something for them to inflict damage to cause a stop. In order to stack the odds in favor of the intended victim it is wiser to focus on:

1. Have a gun at the time it is needed.
a. Is carryable in the mode wished... concealed or open... so it won't be left home/or won't be too far away when needed.
2. Have a gun that works every time.
a. The gun is easy to bring into use. No odd levers/actions needed before use.
b. The ammo used actually works reliably in the gun itself.
3. Have a gun that the person can control well enough to be reasonably accurate with under stress.
a. Fits the hand.
b. Comes to a natural point of aim.
c. Recoil can be controlled when firing in the manner expected to encounter during the stress of self defense.
4. Choose the largest caliber that satisfies #'s 1. though 3..

Please note that caliber choice is a bit far down the list. And that mythical thing called "stopping power" isn't on the list... but accuracy is.

Another place to read a bit of good stuff (even though the list there is a bit different than mine) is:

http://www.spw-duf.info/handgun.html

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open4years wrote:

I own two .380s, a Ruger LCP and a Colt Mustang Pony. From what I've been reading in gun magazines, the .380 has become so popular that .380 ammunition has been improved and is now equal to older 9mm ammunition. Also, almost everyone is out of stock of .380 ammo right now. I know because I tried to order some.

I admit I sometimes carry a .380, when I go out wearing shorts, but normally a .380 is my second gun, usually on an ankle or in a pocket.

I don't know how many here have read of the "Strasbourg" tests, in the past. From what I recall, a large number of sheep (I think.) needed to be slaughtered so a group of people took the oportunity to test ammunition on killing the animals. They tested various calibers and different manufacturers of ammunitions. They shot the animals in the same area and timed how long it took for the animal to die. It sounds cruel but consider what goes on in slaughter houses around the country.

One thing that I got out of the studies was that a .380, using MagSafe ammunition, was more effective than a .45 hollow point, that wasn't MagSafe. This is an old test and I haven't heard of anyone repeating the study, but when I heard of it years ago - I switched to MagSafe ammunition for all of my handguns. I thought if that was true, imagine what a .45 or 10mm in magsafe could do.

You never hear of MagSafe being tested against other, newer, ammunition. So, I don't know where it stands now. It is a pre-fragmented load that is also supposed to disperse all of its energy in whatever it hits, so it is a "safer" ammunition. I also think (hope) that the name would go a long way in a court room than some other ammo names I have heard of.

So, I prefer to carry a .380 as a second gun, but a .380 is better than no gun and it is better than .22 and .25, so it isn't the worst choice you could make. Isn't it so confusing when trying to settle on a caliber, the manufacturer, the type ammunition to carry, whether a smaller caliber with more rounds is beter than a .45 with 7 rounds, etc, etc.!

Maybe that is why I have so many guns, different brands of ammunitons, several holsters per gun, etc. I have to admit that I still haven't settled on a primary gun that will always be the one I carry. If I wear shorts, then I carry a smaller gun, if jeans, then a bigger gun, if a coat, then a bigger gun, with several extra magazines and a back-up. Confusing, huh? At least for a highly analytical person like myself. I envy people who buy one gun, one holster, some ammo. and never question it or desire another gun. But, then it is fun to have an excuse to buy more guns!!

The best ammo of all time was the "Devastator." But then some nut had to use it on Regan and Brady. The ammo was banned and then the Brady laws resulted from that shooting. The ammo was hollow points with a rifle primer inserted into the cavity. I tested it in .45 and it was indeed devastating.

Click to expand...

Talk about a futile, meaningless ban. A box of HydraShoks, a box of primers, maybe a smidge of powder to fill the hollow, and voila! homemade Devastators. This is similar to the "slung shot" ban common in State codes. A "slung shot" is not a "slingshot", it is basically a rock in a sock, used as a sap. So if you have a rock in your right pocket and a sock in your left pocket, you are legal. Put the rock in the sock and you're a criminal.

So don't make hommade Devastators. But if you do (you naughty boy!) don't use them in a semi, boy if that primer hits something during feeding you are gonna have some 'splainin to do. Devastators should only be fired in revolvers. I mean only shouldn't be fired in revolvers, as they are illegal.

(Oh yeah. And don't improvise a devastator for a muzzle loader. They don't seem as if they would be ramrod-friendly)

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There are only a few reasonI can even think of for using a .380 orsmaller caliberfor SD.

1) It is what I have and can afford at this time.
2) I can't comfortable shoot a larger caliber.
3) My only other choose is .38spl (non +p) revolver

IHMO, more potent caliber firearms are onlymarginally larger but offer much more asfar as energy, bullet size,penetrationand cost savings (ammo) so why bother with a .380.

Kahr/many manufacturersoffer a series of firearm that aresimilar insize to most .380 except the newish micro versions.


http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto.html


http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9mmluger.html


http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html


http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html