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Thread: Carrico files HB 69: Tenth Amendment bill

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Here it is:

    HB 69 Firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition manufactured and retained in Virginia.

    HOUSE BILL NO. 69
    Offered January 13, 2010
    Prefiled December 29, 2009
    A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered 18.2-308.2:4, relating to firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition manufactured and retained in Virginia.
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    Patron-- Carrico
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    Committee Referral Pending
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    Whereas, the 10th Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees to the states and their people all powers not granted to the federal government elsewhere in the Constitution; and
    Whereas, the 9th Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees to the people rights not enumerated in the Constitution; and
    Whereas, the regulation of intrastate commerce is vested in the states under the 9th and 10th Amendments to the United States Constitution, particularly if not expressly preempted by federal law. Congress has not expressly preempted state regulation of commerce pertaining to the intrastate manufacture of firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition; and
    Whereas, the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution reserves to the people the right to keep and bear arms; and Whereas Article 1, Section 13 of the Constitution of Virginia clearly secures the right of Virginia citizens to keep and bear arms; now, therefore
    Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:
    1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding a section numbered 18.2-308.2:4 as follows:
    § 18.2-308.2:4. Exemption of firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition manufactured in Virginia from federal regulation.
    A. As used in this section:
    "Ammunition" means the combination of a cartridge, projectile, primer, or propellant designed for use in a firearm other than an antique firearm as defined in § 18.2-308.2:2.
    "Basic materials" include but are not limited to unmachined steel and unshaped wood.
    "Firearm" means any handgun, shotgun, or rifle that will or is designed to expel single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of combustible material.
    "Firearm accessory" means an item used in conjunction with or mounted upon a firearm, but which is not essential to the basic function of the firearm, including but not limited to telescopic or laser sights, magazines, flash or sound suppressors, folding or aftermarket stocks and grips, speedloaders, ammunition carriers, and lights for target illumination.
    "Generic and insignificant parts" include but are not limited to springs, screws, nuts, and pins.
    "Manufactured" means that a firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition has been created from basic materials for functional usefulness, including but not limited to forging, casting, machining, or other processes for working materials.
    B. Firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition that are manufactured commercially or privately in Virginia, and that remain within the borders of Virginia, shall not be subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of the United States Congress to regulate interstate commerce. Such firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition are deemed to have not traveled in interstate commerce. This section shall be applicable to firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition that are manufactured in Virginia from basic materials and that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported from another state. The importation into Virginia of generic or insignificant parts that have other manufacturing or consumer product applications other than firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition and that are incorporated into firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition manufactured in Virginia shall not subject the firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition to federal regulation. Basic materials used for manufacturing shall not be considered firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition for purposes of this section, and shall not be subject to the authority of the United States Congress to regulate the interstate commerce of firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition as if they actually were firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition simply because the basic materials are used in the manufacture of firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition in Virginia. Firearms accessories that are imported into Virginia from another state and that are subject to federal regulation as being in interstate commerce shall not subject a firearm manufactured in Virginia to federal regulation under interstate commerce because they are attached to or used in conjunction with a firearm manufactured in Virginia.
    C. This section shall not apply to:
    1. A firearm that cannot be carried and used by one person;
    2. A firearm that has a bore diameter greater than one and one-half inches and that used smokeless powder, and not black powder, as a propellant;
    3. Ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or
    4. A firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with open activation of the trigger or other firing device.
    D. In order to fall under the purview of this section, any firearm manufactured and sold in Virginia shall have the words "Made in Virginia" clearly stamped on a central metallic part, such as on the receiver or the frame.
    E. This section shall apply to firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition that are manufactured and retained in Virginia on or after July 1, 2010.



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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    3. Ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or
    4. A firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with open activation of the trigger or other firing device.
    I was so happy! Then my heart was broken.
    Conspicuous absence of Armor Piercing rounds.

    How can you have a modern firearm, specifically fit for the Militia, without selective fire?
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    simmonsjoe wrote:
    3. Ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or 4. A firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with open activation of the trigger or other firing device.
    I was so happy! Then my heart was broken. Conspicuous absence of Armor Piercing rounds.

    How can you have a modern firearm, specifically fit for the Militia, without selective fire?
    +1

    If we are going to assert our states rights why be limited by federal bans on fully auto guns or bullet options?

    Currently a police dept. can order a new H&K MP5 9mm fully auto for around $900. Us as private citizens have to buy pre-1986 models in limited supply after paying the ATF tax stamp and getting local sheriff approval. So you get a 25 year old gun for the amazing low price of$18,000. That is 20x the cost a new one!!!!

    If we manufactured fully auto weapons in VA the price would allow the average citizen to acquire one.

    Here is a Virginia made fully auto gun that we could buy if this legislation didn't have those limitations.

    http://www.kriss-tdi.com/products/kriss-smg-45-acp.html


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    simmonsjoe wrote:
    3
    How can you have a modern firearm, specifically fit for the Militia, without selective fire?
    We don't need no seelective fire:P
    We need BIG BOOLITS




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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    If you travel to another state with your "Made In Virginia" firearm, will you be in possession of a prohibited weapon under either federal law or the laws of that state?

    What about reciprocity with other states with similar legislation? Would Virginia honor weapons made in those states as "legitimate weapons"?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    simmonsjoe wrote:

    4. A firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with open activation of the trigger or other firing device.

    How can you have a modern firearm, specifically fit for the Militia, without selective fire?
    Because subdivision 4 is the last one, it would be easy to delete it.

    It would be nice for the House to do just that, then send it over to Senate Courts of Justice for Howell, Marsh, and Saslaw to review.

    It's not like they're going to vote for the bill anyway.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    simmonsjoe wrote:

    4. A firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with open activation of the trigger or other firing device.

    How can you have a modern firearm, specifically fit for the Militia, without selective fire?
    Because subdivision 4 is the last one, it would be easy to delete it.

    It would be nice for the House to do just that, then send it over to Senate Courts of Justice for Howell, Marsh, and Saslaw to review.

    It's not like they're going to vote for the bill anyway.
    And that is the big problem with a lot of these bills coming up.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Any manufacturer who would endeavour to make firearms that comply with this statute will need a market. How about adding a requirement that all local and stateLEAs purchase "Made in Virginia" firearms? For that matter, how about furnishing them to the VNG?

    Why limit this to firearms? Why not tobacco and alcohol?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    Any manufacturer who would endeavour to make firearms that comply with this statute will need a market. How about adding a requirement that all local and stateLEAs purchase "Made in Virginia" firearms? For that matter, how about furnishing them to the VNG?

    Why limit this to firearms? Why not tobacco and alcohol?
    Good idea.

    I will sign up to buy one of these as soon as it is legal!!!!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    I will sign up to buy one of these
    I was thinkin the same thing :-)
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    2a4all wrote:
    If you travel to another state with your "Made In Virginia" firearm, will you be in possession of a prohibited weapon under either federal law or the laws of that state?

    What about reciprocity with other states with similar legislation? Would Virginia honor weapons made in those states as "legitimate weapons"?
    Pretty sure that is where the interstate commerce clause comes into play.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    VaLiberty wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    If you travel to another state with your "Made In Virginia" firearm, will you be in possession of a prohibited weapon under either federal law or the laws of that state?

    What about reciprocity with other states with similar legislation? Would Virginia honor weapons made in those states as "legitimate weapons"?
    Pretty sure that is where the interstate commerce clause comes into play.
    But would it? Suppose that "other state" was an adjacent state (like TN), and your trip there didn't involve the sale of a firearm, where's the "interstate commerce"? Your "Made in Virginia" firearm shouldn't treatedbe any differently than your shoes.

    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    45acpForMe wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    Any manufacturer who would endeavour to make firearms that comply with this statute will need a market. How about adding a requirement that all local and stateLEAs purchase "Made in Virginia" firearms? For that matter, how about furnishing them to the VNG?

    Why limit this to firearms? Why not tobacco and alcohol?
    Good idea.

    I will sign up to buy one of these as soon as it is legal!!!!
    apparently you can already buy a semi-auto version in SBR format
    I'd love one with a happy switch :celebrate

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    Thing about this is, the feds will use the "commerce clause" because the raw materials that the gun is made from came from out of state.

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    nova wrote:
    Thing about this is, the feds will use the "commerce clause" because the raw materials that the gun is made from came from out of state.
    That I doubt, but transporting finished goods across state lines does invoke their power.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    VaLiberty wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Thing about this is, the feds will use the "commerce clause" because the raw materials that the gun is made from came from out of state.
    That I doubt, but transporting finished goods across state lines does invoke their power.
    "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"

    The above is the much-maligned "commerce clause" as it appears under Section 8 - Powers of Congress in the Constitution. Under Section 9 - Limits on Congress, we see this sentence;

    "No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another."


    Nowhere in either of these sentences from the Constitution is there any mention of our government controlling commerce in the sense of retrictions or regulations for firearms or for that matter, just about anything else. The first sentence simply begins with, "To regulate Commerce..". This means to "keep and make regular", not to control and dictate.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    SouthernBoy wrote
    "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"

    The above is the much-maligned "commerce clause" as it appears under Section 8 - Powers of Congress in the Constitution. Under Section 9 - Limits on Congress, we see this sentence;

    "No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another."


    Nowhere in either of these sentences from the Constitution is there any mention of our government controlling commerce in the sense of retrictions or regulations for firearms or for that matter, just about anything else. The first sentence simply begins with, "To regulate Commerce..". This means to "keep and make regular", not to control and dictate.
    I'm not arguing the verbiage, nor do I disagree with your points, I am merely highlighting the modern interpretation.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I will sign up to buy one of these as soon as it is legal!!!!
    apparently you can already buy a semi-auto version in SBR format
    I'd love one with a happy switch :celebrate
    Yes a few months back I got an email from TDI saying that I could now legally convert my KRISS/CRB to the SRB (short barrel).

    I investigated the cost and for a threaded barrel the conversion was about $400 but it is still considered a class III firearm so you would need to get an ATF tax stamp etc.

    I decided to keep the longer barrel for accuracy. I can hit targets at 100 yards with 5-6" groupings whereas the "professionals" that tested the SBR and SMG (short barrel machine gun) only got 12" groupings at 100 yards.

    I would love a 2-3 burst mode as well as fully auto. But since this gun was invented "after" 1986 that will never happen unless the laws change.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    VaLiberty wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    If you travel to another state with your "Made In Virginia" firearm, will you be in possession of a prohibited weapon under either federal law or the laws of that state?

    What about reciprocity with other states with similar legislation? Would Virginia honor weapons made in those states as "legitimate weapons"?
    Pretty sure that is where the interstate commerce clause comes into play.
    But would it? Suppose that "other state" was an adjacent state (like TN), and your trip there didn't involve the sale of a firearm, where's the "interstate commerce"? Your "Made in Virginia" firearm shouldn't treatedbe any differently than your shoes.
    They only have the right to regulate interstate COMMERCE. If you hand your personally owned rifle cross borders, it is not commerce. There are no states I'm aware of who require a firearm to have serial numbers. Your only concern, if you moved out of VA would be to make sure the weapon fit your new states laws.

    NOVA Your argument is tired, played, and false. The feds already define what level of materials can be imported without being a firearms. Ever heard of a firearm made with a PCR??? I have met people with privately built firearms built in their garage with these parts. No serial numbers, 100% legal.
    Read it up on www.ar15.com
    Also, if you read HB69 completely, you will see it defines all that stuff as well.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would love a 2-3 burst mode as well as fully auto. But since this gun was invented "after" 1986 that will never happen unless the laws change.
    That's an interesting idea, mechanically. Are there any weapons that currently do this? It would seem to violate the "0, 1, Infinity" rule, which as far as I know, has never applied to firearms to begin with.

    TFred


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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    I would love a 2-3 burst mode as well as fully auto. But since this gun was invented "after" 1986 that will never happen unless the laws change.
    That's an interesting idea, mechanically. Are there any weapons that currently do this? It would seem to violate the "0, 1, Infinity" rule, which as far as I know, has never applied to firearms to begin with.

    TFred
    It doesn't matter if it is 2 or the full magazine/belt. Any gun that fires more than 1 round with 1 trigger pull is considered a class III item. (including broken guns, talk to the gun owner sitting in jail because his gun fired multiple rounds and jammed)

    I really would prefer a 3-round burst over full auto. It would be nice if the laws allowed that at least. The kicker is that you have to buy a pre-1986 gun so anything invented after that is off limits. We need to get that law off the books. What is the difference between two fully-auto 9mm guns if one is manufactured after 1986 and one before? Same gun, same model same specifications, one is illegal and the other legal if you can find one to buy at 20x the markup (supply & demand).

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    (including broken guns, talk to the gun owner sitting in jail because his gun fired multiple rounds and jammed)
    Which could not be recreated by "professional" firearms experts in a controlled setting. The man is in jail based on hearsay. It is an abomination to justice and good faith.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote:
    (including broken guns, talk to the gun owner sitting in jail because his gun fired multiple rounds and jammed)
    Which could not be recreated by "professional" firearms experts in a controlled setting. The man is in jail based on hearsay. It is an abomination to justice and good faith.
    Yes the ATF couldn't reproduce the failure until they switched to soft primers. It is a travesty of justice. Can you say tyranny?

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    What is the difference between two fully-auto 9mm guns if one is manufactured after 1986 and one before? Same gun, same model same specifications, one is illegal and the other legal
    do NOT use logic here.. that is not allowed. It is just like me standin here in va and as soon as I cross the river and stand on the river bank of maryland I am illegal. Same river, within a couple hundred feet of where I was standing before, etc etc etc
    Carry On.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    45acpForMe wrote:
    Yes the ATF couldn't reproduce the failure until they switched to soft primers. It is a travesty of justice. Can you say tyranny?
    Loudly.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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