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Thread: LTE: "I don’t want my kids to have to see that."

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    This letter-to-the-editor appears in the current edition of the Chesterfield Observer.

    This mother's attitude is disturbing. I'm reproducing her letter in its entirety.

    Because she is so extremely bothered by what she, and her children, might see from the consequences of deer hunting, I'm wondering if she would be similarly offended by the sight of a handgun carried by a person within her proximity at a park, shopping mall, or a restaurant. Note that she repeatedly refers to bows as weapons. I've highlighted that aspect in her letter.

    My question is:

    Does a person's anti-hunting mentality extend to anti open-carry mentality also?

    Here is her letter:

    Killing deer in neighborhoods is dangerous

    Dear Editor,

    Your Nov. 25 article describing Chesterfield’s Board of Supervisors’ decision regarding a change in the bow hunting ordinance poorly addressed the concerns of those of us who support that change. Perhaps you might have also wanted to publish a photo of a hunter in a tree stand hovering over my neighbors’ yard where their children and dog normally play. Another neighbor has arranged for that hunter to be there despite the strong objections of immediate neighbors and despite the objections of the homeowners’ association. Bow hunting in this setting, only a few feet from another’s home, is inappropriate and unsafe.

    In many areas of the state, from neighboring Henrico and Hanover counties, to numerous other areas far less populated than ours (like Tazewell, Pulaski and Rocky Mount, just as examples), local laws limit bow hunting near homes, acknowledging that it presents an unacceptable risk. Chesterfield should do likewise.

    The state gives clear leeway to the counties to regulate bow hunting in areas “so heavily populated as to make such conduct dangerous to the inhabitants.” (Code of Virginia, § 15.2-1209/1210). Certainly, a neighborhood is one such place.

    Let me say that I absolutely support exempting target practice and archery from the proposed ordinance change. There is a world of difference between shooting a practice arrow at a fixed target and a live arrow at a moving animal.

    Over and over, those opposed to the ordinance change who spoke at the [public] hearing stated that bow hunting is safe, but everyone has to admit that there are additional variables involved when you take that bow hunting into a densely populated neighborhood. To trot out statistics from the last 30 years of bow hunting in rural areas and the forests of Virginia to prove that hunting on a half-acre lot (or less) in a neighborhood full of unpredictable children and pets is safe is ludicrous. In fact, even the hunter who has been solicited to kill deer in my neighbor’s yard detailed in a slideshow the numerous steps he undertook to ensure safety, acknowledging that such steps are necessary. Can we assume that every backyard hunter will be as careful in exhaustively researching all safety angles and potential dangers? Today’s crossbows and compound bows are incredibly high-powered and deadly, propelling arrows at a high rate of speed for long distances. Despite how dedicated and careful one may be, hunting errors occur. Allowing those kinds of weapons in such close proximity to so many people is an accident waiting to happen.

    In addition to the weapons themselves, an injured deer running through a heavily populated neighborhood is also a hazard. After a fatal arrow shot, deer often run 100 yards or more before falling. In most neighborhoods, that means the deer ends up in someone’s yard other than the hunter. I don’t want to see a suffering or dying deer writhing in my yard. I don’t want my kids to have to see that. In a neighborhood, I think it’s reasonable to expect that we shouldn’t have to. Remember that way over 90 percent of Americans don’t hunt, and part of the reason is that we have absolutely no desire to ever witness that – and especially not when looking out our kitchen window.

    Also heard repeatedly at the hearing were concerns about deer population growth and the problems associated with that increase. If Chesterfield needs to address those concerns at some point in the future, then that is a different argument altogether. Certainly a neighbor shooting a deer here and there in his yard is not going to solve any perceived deer overpopulation problem.

    Perhaps those of us in favor of this ordinance change did not have the numbers of those who oppose the change turn out for the hearing. After all, we are just concerned citizens without a lobbying organization at our disposal. But that doesn’t mean that this issue affects only one neighborhood. Common sense dictates that lethal hunting weapons have no business in close quarters with occupied homes – the risks are not worth it. It’s unthinkable that someone would place the importance of their ornamental plants above the safety of a child.

    Jennifer Martin Lemler

    Midlothian

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    She raises some good points; but her basic premise is avague "unacceptable risk."

    I wonder if she is one of those people who consider any risk to be unacceptable. She certainly seems squeamish about writhing deer. I wonder if she is unwilling to have her kids learn how cattle are killed and butchered, too.

    Regarding OC, I don't know. She might have some experience with hunting. She seems to know more about hunting bows and shooting angles and hunting safety than your average urban soccer mom. Maybe her dad hunted when she was growing up.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    She raises some good points; but her basic premise is avague "unacceptable risk."

    I wonder if she is one of those people who consider any risk to be unacceptable. She certainly seems squeamish about writhing deer. I wonder if she is unwilling to have her kids learn how cattle are killed and butchered, too.

    Regarding OC, I don't know. She might have some experience with hunting. She seems to know more about hunting bows and shooting angles and hunting safety than your average urban soccer mom. Maybe her dad hunted when she was growing up.
    I thought about that, too. But I wonder where she was raised. Is she a native Virginian or a transplant?

    I'm seeing more people in Chesterfield County with cosmopolitan attitudes that lead to certain people wanting to ban flagpoles and BB guns and now deer hunting.

    This increasing level of intolerance for culture and tradition is cause for concern.

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    If she values the lives of her children then she better not drive them anywhere, there's a much higher risk of getting in a fatal car accident than being accidentally shot by a hunter.

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    I do not think she is anti hunting as much as where they are hunting. When you do get too close to houses and populated areas it can get very dangerous.If done inwilderness area that is different. If you know there is hunting in the woods you take your chances going in there. You should feel safe in your backyard that you and your family will not get hit by a stray round. A bullet from a weapon may have an effective range but it can go a lot farther than that. Just like shooting in the air the bullet will come to earth somewhere.

    It is not the bullet with your name on it you have to worry about it is the one that is marked to whom it may concern.

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    thnycav wrote:
    It is not the bullet with your name on it you have to worry about it is the one that is marked to whom it may concern.
    I've got to say, that's one of the best damn quotes I've read in a while.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    I hunt. I have no problem with hunting. I do have problems with hunters (or at least that's what they call themselves). I see where this lady is coming from. I've had people trespass on my property to hunt and get to a hunting area. I've had people run dogs through. I've dug rounds out of siding( addressed to "Whom It May Concern") and I've brought the kids and critters inside because the gunfire sounded a tad too close. So, yeah, I do see her point.



    DocV

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    DocV wrote:
    I hunt. I have no problem with hunting. I do have problems with hunters (or at least that's what they call themselves). I see where this lady is coming from. I've had people trespass on my property to hunt and get to a hunting area. I've had people run dogs through. I've dug rounds out of siding( addressed to "Whom It May Concern") and I've brought the kids and critters inside because the gunfire sounded a tad too close. So, yeah, I do see her point.



    DocV
    Say it again brother!!!!!

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Those same knuckleheads that call themselves "hunters" also consider themselves "shooters" at the range...

    Y'all know the type: FULL SIZE silhouette target at 3 yards and still spray rounds all over the place, shooting a Hand Cannon (44 mag or 50 AE) on a crowded indoor range. Not being muzzle conscious (I usually tell them where I'm going to stick their weapon if they don't quit pointing it at other people). I really don't suffer idiocy lightly. I do my best to see them removed from the range before they hurt someone else. let them test Darwin in private where they can't take anyone else out of the gene pool with them.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    Those same knuckleheads that call themselves "hunters" also consider themselves "shooters" at the range...

    Y'all know the type: FULL SIZE silhouette target at 3 yards and still spray rounds all over the place, shooting a Hand Cannon (44 mag or 50 AE) on a crowded indoor range. Not being muzzle conscious (I usually tell them where I'm going to stick their weapon if they don't quit pointing it at other people). I really don't suffer idiocy lightly. I do my best to see them removed from the range before they hurt someone else. let them test Darwin in private where they can't take anyone else out of the gene pool with them.
    Those fellows are called "Blackshirts" MSC.

    They always wear Blackshirts, answer every question using military Acronyms, wear black plastic framed glasses with thick lenses, have dainty little hands and hog the range.

    Back in high school, we used to shove them in their lockers and throw them out of the locker room naked. They all owned slide rules back then.

    Almost every range has a few. Thank God, mine doesn't.

    Then there's the range Azzhole.
    They take it upon themselves to teach everyone how to shoot. Walk from station to station correcting problems and usually shoot a Kel Tec.:X

    The standard response when you tell him to go mind his own F^^^^^ing business is "I'm gonna to report you".

    Thankfully, we don't have any of those either. Had one but I asked him if he'd be the moving target holder and he resigned.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Very well-put, Peter Nap! Good descriptions.

    Had a "blackshirt" with one of those single-shot hand cannons that shoots rifle rounds with a screw-on breach shootingafew lanes overat an outdoor range in Texas. The breach was off, so I knew it couldn't shoot, but I noticed he was in the habit of pointing the thing down the bench at me when he reloaded. The first time I politely (without profanity) told him to keep his weapon pointed downrange or in a SAFE direction at ALL times while he was there.

    I know he heard me because he cocked his head, furrowed his browand looked at me quizically after I said it. Maybe he didn't understand the simple polite words because he did it AGAIN after his next shot. I unloaded and benched my pistol and walked over to him and his buddies and used more descriptive adjectives he might understand and told him I was going to violently insert his POS hand cannon (scope and all) into his rectal orifice if he did it again.

    He got:what:and walked away. He came back with an RO and the elderly RO (A WW 2 veteran)asked mewhat had happened and why I felt it necessary to "curse him out". I told him what the rump ranger had done and he immediately told the clown to pack up his chit and not to come back to that range.

    It was a PUBLIC range. Blackshirt got Blackballed from the PUBLIC shooting range. I was a regular there and brought CG units there to shoot at least once a week. He was the most complete azzwhole I'd ever encountered at a range. Most people listen and pay attention the first time...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    There is a world of difference between shooting a practice arrow at a fixed target and a live arrow at a moving animal.
    "A live arrow?" I don't bow hunt, so what are you guys using, little warheads on the "live" arrows? Are they like little shark bang-sticks? I never knew it was so sophisticated.




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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    Very well-put, Peter Nap! Good descriptions.

    Had a "blackshirt" with one of those single-shot hand cannons that shoots rifle rounds with a screw-on breach shootingafew lanes overat an outdoor range in Texas. The breach was off, so I knew it couldn't shoot, but I noticed he was in the habit of pointing the thing down the bench at me when he reloaded. The first time I politely (without profanity) told him to keep his weapon pointed downrange or in a SAFE direction at ALL times while he was there.

    I know he heard me because he cocked his head, furrowed his browand looked at me quizically after I said it. Maybe he didn't understand the simple polite words because he did it AGAIN after his next shot. I unloaded and benched my pistol and walked over to him and his buddies and used more descriptive adjectives he might understand and told him I was going to violently insert his POS hand cannon (scope and all) into his rectal orifice if he did it again.

    He got:what:and walked away. He came back with an RO and the elderly RO (A WW 2 veteran)asked mewhat had happened and why I felt it necessary to "curse him out". I told him what the rump ranger had done and he immediately told the clown to pack up his chit and not to come back to that range.

    It was a PUBLIC range. Blackshirt got Blackballed from the PUBLIC shooting range. I was a regular there and brought CG units there to shoot at least once a week. He was the most complete azzwhole I'd ever encountered at a range. Most people listen and pay attention the first time...
    I had to tell a guy to stop dry firing at people who were down range checking targets. :what:

    A firm "STOP" from a guy with his hand on his loaded holstered sidearm is apparently very easily understood.

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    I would imagine the reference is field points vs. broadheads. You know target arrows and hunting arrows? A large part of the world has no idea there is a difference in arrows for different purposes just like FMJ vs. JHP.
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    nova wrote:
    I had to tell a guy to stop dry firing at people who were down range checking targets. :what:

    A firm "STOP" from a guy with his hand on his loaded holstered sidearm is apparently very easily understood.
    Unbelievable. I'm not sure what I would do if I witnessed that.

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    The Wolfhound wrote:
    I would imagine the reference is field points vs. broadheads. You know target arrows and hunting arrows? A large part of the world has no idea there is a difference in arrows for different purposes just like FMJ vs. JHP.
    Oh, I know. It was just a ignorant characterization on her part. "Live" arrows? She made it sound like "practice" arrows were some kind of kid-friendlynerf thing that would bounce off if they hit something. Like FMJ vs JHP, neither negates the lethality of the underlying projectile.

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    A few years back I was at Clarke Bros. and the range azzhole was the also the range officer. He hogged up the best shooting lane all day, answered questions with smart, single word answers, and was generally a fat richard cranium. He also liked to ask you for your receipts to make sure you were using their ammo. His perogative, of course, but it was my perogative to stop going there.

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    Chrissakes, this woman is right!! Friggen Bloomie shoulda settled in this land 1000 years ago to stop those dumbazz indians from killin' animals in their immediate area, in front of their chillun' !!

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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    Chrissakes, this woman is right!! Friggen Bloomie shoulda settled in this land 1000 years ago to stop those dumbazz indians from killin' animals in their immediate area, in front of their chillun' !!

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    If that dang deer falls in my yard, he's MINE....at least the back strap and the roasts.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    ScottNH wrote:
    There is a world of difference between shooting a practice arrow at a fixed target and a live arrow at a moving animal.
    "A live arrow?" I don't bow hunt, so what are you guys using, little warheads on the "live" arrows? Are they like little shark bang-sticks? I never knew it was so sophisticated.


    Yes, easily distinguished. The practice ones have blue stripes, and the live ones have varying numbers of yellow stripes depending on their fill.

    Obscure, but some of you here are going to get the joke.

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    AIC869 wrote:
    ScottNH wrote:
    There is a world of difference between shooting a practice arrow at a fixed target and a live arrow at a moving animal.
    "A live arrow?" I don't bow hunt, so what are you guys using, little warheads on the "live" arrows? Are they like little shark bang-sticks? I never knew it was so sophisticated.


    Yes, easily distinguished. The practice ones have blue stripes, and the live ones have varying numbers of yellow stripes depending on their fill.

    Obscure, but some of you here are going to get the joke.
    The live arrows are the ones with a dead deer on the end.

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    The thing I normally find about these "blackshirts" and "azzholes" is that they normally don't know the law either. They have their CHP and carry it where ever they see fit, but the minute you start asking them about where you can and cant carry they go blank.

    There is a big difference between carrying your firearm everyday as a tool and only carrying your firearm at the range while being a tool.

    I personally stay away from public ranges and stick to my hunt club. I only frequent the public ranges during hunting season, as not to scare away all the fun.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Jero1987 wrote:
    I personally stay away from public ranges and stick to my hunt club. I only frequent the public ranges during hunting season, as not to scare away all the fun.
    Don't tell MSC, but I'm one of those fellows that shoots BIG guns....but I also belong to a private gun club that I usually have one range or the other to myself. I also have my own range on my farm.

    I also avoid public ranges like the plague. My bad experiences have mostly been at Chickahominy.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    The live arrows are the ones with a dead deer on the end.
    You're using too light a pull weight if there is no exit hole - two holes are twice as good as one.

    Its like being double tapped with one shot.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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