Detroit Firearm Ordinance

imported post

Bravo! You've taken the proverbial bull by the horns by addressing this with the city of Detroit. Making all of this public record will hopefully help moving teh cause forward. I thank you for your efforts.....

imported post

Thank you Sprinklerguy, you are an inspiration to the rest of us.springerdave.

imported post

sprinklerguy28 wrote:

I attended the council meeting today. First let me say thank you to bossbart and jamesian for attending as well. I covered the ordinances in question in relation to the state's preemption law. To no surprise no questions or comments were made from the council. After the meeting I first spoke with Council President Pro-Tem GAry Brown. I asked for him a commitment to having this addressed in a timely fashion. He expressed his concern in getting it corrected and getting DPD trained most importantly. He stated as chairman of the police and safety committee he will see to getting this addressed as need. He also suggested that I set up a meeting with the Mayor Bing, and Chief of Police Evans. After speaking with him I spoke with councilwoman Saunteel Jenkins. She stated that it is best to follow up through Brown as his committe would be referred this matter and that she appreciated the concerns and believes they can get this resolved. While speaking with her and making my concerns about OC known, and the instances where citizens have been wronged by LEO the DPD security guard decided to chime in, He tried arguing that there are laws against OC as far as it relates to distances you must stay away from certain venues. I politely informed him no such law exists. Either my tone of voice or good sense on his part made him reconsider his position and he suddenly agreed with my intentions. At this time the representative from the city law department who was present at the meeting at left immediately after walked back into the room and up to me. He apologized if I thought he may have not taken any interest in the matter earlier during the meeting. He stated that they are aware of the preemption law and the city will not enforce their ordinances that are preempted. He also stated that they are "in the process of removing them from the books". I asked if I could recieve that in writing as an official communication from the city. As expected I was told no but not to worry.

A very mixed reaction and impression from the city as I had expected. I knew this would be a challenge. I do feel though with a little patience and consistent follow through on my part we will see these ordinances amended. I have called a setup meetings with the Mayor's office and Chief of Police. WE have several dates chosen and just waiting on confirmation which of those dates work for all involved. I will update when it is set.

Click to expand...

Let us know when u plan to meet with Chief & Mayor, If needany supporters I'm in.

imported post

If my schedule permits,I'd like to attend that meeting also.

imported post

Scottwas very tenacious at the meeting. He spoke personally to Saunteel Jenkins and Gary Brown both. What is frustrating is that noone seemed to understand that this ordinance needs to be removed from the record, not merely declared unenforceable.

I have seen threads in other parts of OCDO where the OP protests people who he believes are Ocing like it is some sort of game, hoping they will be accosted by LEO. This is not a bad thing! Keep getting OC in the public eye. It allowed Scott to truthfully tell both Brown and Jenkins that despite the ordinance being unenforcable, we have video/audio of people being harrassed under this ordinance in Detroit.

While OC is anything but a game, lawful, peaceful encounters with LEO help fuel our cause. Particularly when we have drawn out a LEO's ignorance of or flat out disregard for the law.

The city's lawyer (I think) suggested carrying around a paper with the applicable laws listed. Scott was then able to inform them that he does and that officers sometimesrefuse to look at the pamphlet.

Insofar as you are willing to risk legal entanglement, lawful OC encounters are desirable until this matter has been made clear to LEO statewide.

imported post

Oh, don't forget to record the encounter, and Wash, Rinse, Repeat!

imported post

Excellent work Sprinklerguy! Let us know when the meeting will be.

imported post

I followed up my meeting with city council with this letter to the Chief of Police, Warren Evans. I ask everyone to email Mr. Evans and the city council with your feelings in regards to theses ordinances. All contact emails are listed on the City of Detroit's website. http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/

Dear Mr. Evans,

Below is a copy of a letter I presented to the City Council, and the legal department on January 7, 2009 at the City Council Meeting. I received less then favorable response to getting the ordinances removed to comply with state law. I am aware that this is not something you are responsible for as it will take a council vote to amend the ordinances. I am contacting you to discuss the police departments knowledge of the state preemption law, the ordinances it effects, and the police departments training and knowledge of the legal methods of carrying a firearm, open carry and concealed carry with a concealed pistol license, in the city of Detroit. I have watched video of citizens having interactions with your officers that I’m sure you’ll agree are less then desirable for the city of Detroit, the individuals involved, and for us citizens who could be next. I would like the opportunity to sit and discuss this with you personally. I may be reached at 586-***-****

Sincerely,

sprinklerguy28


January 7, 2009

Dear Detroit City Council, Detroit police department,
While researching the Code of Ordinances for Detroit, I came across the following,


ARTICLE X. WEAPONS

*Case law annotations: Regulation of firearms is not preempted by state law; Detroit v. Judge, Recorder's Court, 56 Mich. App. 224, 223 N.W. 2d 722 (1974).
Cross references: Replica or facsimile firearms, § 38-16-1 et seq.
State law references: Firearms and weapons generally, MCL 28.421 et seq., 750.222 et seq.; MSA 28.91 et seq. 28.419 et seq.


Sec. 38-10-58. Transportation in vehicles; carrying in public.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by him or her, contrary to the State Concealed Weapons Licensing law. Except for a pistol carried or transported lawfully under the State Concealed Weapons Licensing Law, it shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm on any public street or in a public place unless it is unloaded and in a case, or to transport or have in or upon any vehicle occupied by him or her any firearm unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and is taken down, enclosed in a case, carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle or inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.

Sec. 38-4-11. Possession or concealment of weapons in city buildings prohibited.


Under the 1990 state preemption law (MCL 123.1102, outlined in brief attached), these ordinances are unenforceable in regard to firearm possession and transport. Furthermore, the existence of these ordinances, being in conflict with the law of the State of Michigan, is misleading to the people of Detroit, and other citizens who may visit the city.

I am requesting this article heading and theses ordinances be amended within 90 days to comply with MCL 123.1102. Failure to amend this ordinance could be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the public of what is and is not allowed in the city of Detroit. I request the opportunity to be heard in front of council, and look forward to your resolution and response when this ordinance is amended.

Thank you,
sprinklerguy28
address
phone #

Michigan Legislature FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION (EXCERPT)
Act 319 of 1990
123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.
A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3uzohtmics2b4u45avhaptfn))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-123-1102

imported post

I received a response to the letter I sent to the Chief's office

Mr. sprinklerguy28:

Thank you for contacting the office of Chief Warren C. Evans. I attempted to contact you by telephone on Monday, January 11, 2010 in reference to this subject. Please feel free to contact me directly at
313 596 1989, between the hours of 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM, Monday through Friday.

Sincerely,

Benard Beck-O'Steen
Sergeant
Office of the Chief of Police
Detroit Police Department
1300 Beaubien, Suite 326
Detroit, Michigan 48226
313 596 1989


I did contact Sgt. Beck-O'Steen Tuesday January 12th. I wish I had been able to record the conversation. The Sgt. was well informed of OC and very receptive to my thoughts and concerns. He did state that all DPD officers have been informed to not enforce the 2 ordinances in question. He stated unfortunately do to department policy he can not provide me with those documents stating this. He stated I would need to receive those from the law department. As noted previously I have tried to obtain a written confirmation from the law department and was denied. I have forwarded him a copy of the LEO packet from MOC as well as a copy of the presentation offerred by the MML. The conversation was better than I expected and is a huge step in the right direction. The tough battle still lies ahead in getting city council to remove the ordinances. My next step will be appearing before the Police and Safety commision. It's a slow process but they will soon realize we will not go away until this is handled properly.

imported post

Good job & thank u for all your work

imported post

Nice job. The combination of the MML packet, 123.1102 and the possibility of a lawsuit presented in person appears to be the ticket.

I played 'keyboard commando' last year with the Kalamazoo County Parks Dept. and successful achieved a change in their regs via email.

Not so successful with my own Texas Township. 6 months of emails got me "hmmmm, maybe in the future we'll address it."

My patience wore thin and I attended the Board meeting on Monday presenting this during the citizens comments time:

"I’m here tonite to object to 2 Texas Township Ordinances with regard to the prohibition on the possession and transportation of firearms in Texas Township Parks and KVCC. The Ordinances are numbered Section 24-32 and Section 14-43 respectfully.

Sec. 24-32. Regulations.
The following regulations shall govern activities and uses at township parks:
(1)No firearms shall be permitted in the parks.

Sec. 14-43. Firearms.
No person, except a peace officer in the discharge of his duties, shall, without the written consent of an authorized representative of the college, possess or discharge a firearm on college property.

Michigan State Law, specifically MCL 123.1102, prohibits municipalities from enacting ordinances regarding the possession of firearms. Texas Township Ordinance Sec. 24-32 and 14-43 are in violation of State law and exposes the Township to civil suits from engaged citizens who may be illegally arrested and prosecuted, thus requiring an expensive defense under this ordinance, or who may sue the Township as a result of an arrest, or due to the inability to protect themselves in the event of a confrontation. Additionally, these Ordinances leave the impression with the citizens of Texas Township that the Board has the authority to enact such ordinances, which it clearly does not. Citizens of other municipalities have brought similar ordinances to the attention of their elected representatives; as examples, governmental bodies in Traverse City, Alpena, Warren, South Haven and Kalamazoo County, after input from their own attorneys, and in a timely manner, have brought their formerly illegal ordinances into compliance with State Law.

I initially contacted Supervisor Healy in July of last year regarding this issue and despite months of back and forth emails no real effort has been made on his part other than asking for my patience. During this time I provided Supervisor Healy with all current Michigan Firearms Laws, position papers from the Michigan Municipal League, pertinent State Laws, Court opinions and the progress made by the Kalamazoo County Parks Director. His latest email, 3 days ago, stated that while he recognizes this needs to be addressed, the resolution of these illegal ordinances was of low priority as ‘there are many challenges on the plate’ that since no ‘situations’ have occurred there is no need to move it up the priority list.

To me, I see this as the canary in the coal mine – I believe it to be the responsibility and a priority, of all our elected representatives to protect our rights as citizens. If Township Officials are unwilling to remove illegal ordinances from our Codes, and are disrespectful of our rights as citizens in this matter, I’m concerned about the trustful nature of the relationship between elected officials and the citizenry.

I find it difficult to believe that over the last six months there has been absolutely no time to attend to this concern. Tonight, I respectfully ask the Board to swiftly address and remove these illegal ordinances, and provide a timeline for resolution."


As a result, the matter was added to the agenda for that meeting, discussed and a change in the ordinance to be resolved by Feb. 1st.


Carry on

imported post

Sprinklerguy is it about time to attend another Detroit Counsel Meeting

imported post

The next formal full council meeting is Tuesday March 16th at 10a.m. It will be at the Coleman A. Young Building in council chambers.

Is there interest in others that would be willing to attend.

imported post

persons duly authorized by federal or state law to carry firearms


Why, I do believe i am authorized. :quirky

See US/MI Constitution, and the infringement there upon known as my PtP.:banghead:

imported post

sprinklerguy28 wrote:

The next formal full council meeting is Tuesday March 16th at 10a.m. It will be at the Coleman A. Young Building in council chambers.

Is there interest in others that would be willing to attend.

Click to expand...

That day is not good, That isSzerdi court date, I plan on attending

imported post

I had a talk with one of my instructors at school the other day,who is apolice officer in Detroit, regarding OC. He said that they were recently trained on OC. However, I think they were misinformed or he was mistaken. He told me that they were told that OC was legal, but you had to have your handgun registration on your person. He also said that from what he understood was that they could detain you at the station until you could produce the registration. I told him that was not true, and he said that he may be mistaken and would look into it. Now I may add that this officer has not worked the streets in several years and works in polygraph. So if what he said is true, it looks like DPD needs to have some remedial training.

On the other hand I had a talk with another instructor who is a Troy police officer. He seemed very supportive of OC. He said that they have had several memo's come across their desks in the last couple weeks in regards to OC. They were told basically to back off. He said that the 911 dispatch has been fully trained on how tohandle MWAG calls. He said that in some situations a car may be dispatched to observe the OC'ers behavior, If there is no suspicious/criminal activity then no contact would be made. He also said that if they did stop and ask for your info, I woud be just to make sure the gun is registered, if you refused to give your info they would just walk away. He seemed well aware of our civil rights.Obviously he can't speak for every officer's actions, but it does seem that Troy has got their stuff together.

imported post

RenegadeMarine wrote:

I had a talk with one of my instructors at school the other day,who is apolice officer in Detroit, regarding OC. He said that they were recently trained on OC. However, I think they were misinformed or he was mistaken. He told me that they were told that OC was legal, but you had to have your handgun registration on your person. He also said that from what he understood was that they could detain you at the station until you could produce the registration. I told him that was not true, and he said that he may be mistaken and would look into it. Now I may add that this officer has not worked the streets in several years and works in polygraph. So if what he said is true, it looks like DPD needs to have some remedial training.

On the other hand I had a talk with another instructor who is a Troy police officer. He seemed very supportive of OC. He said that they have had several memo's come across their desks in the last couple weeks in regards to OC. They were told basically to back off. He said that the 911 dispatch has been fully trained on how tohandle MWAG calls. He said that in some situations a car may be dispatched to observe the OC'ers behavior, If there is no suspicious/criminal activity then no contact would be made. He also said that if they did stop and ask for your info, I woud be just to make sure the gun is registered, if you refused to give your info they would just walk away. He seemed well aware of our civil rights.Obviously he can't speak for every officer's actions, but it does seem that Troy has got their stuff together.

Click to expand...

Print this and give it to your instructor

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(21tivc55slj5f255qsartq45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-422