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Thread: Examiner.com: Don't be a gun dork in traffic stops

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    Please SUBSCRIBE to this column at http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner

    And DIGG and REDDIT the article at http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gu...-traffic-stops

    SNIP

    examiner.com — On numerous Internet forums, and some email lists, gun owners periodically report being hassled by police when pulled over for routine traffic infractions. . . . But often there is a common thread to these stories – the dorky gun owner brought up the gun thing all on her own! . . .

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    Can't have it both ways. Most LEO's like being advised that you're armed...they should thank you for having the respect to notify and move on with the stop.

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    Yeah, here in NC, we are a "must notify" state. Any time you are addressed by an LEO in a traffic stop, if you have a CHP and are carrying, you MUST notify the officer of your permit and the fact you are carrying.

    But when I travel in VA, PA, or other "don't have to notify" states, I would most likely notify anyway, because if they run my tags, they're gonna know, and to be honest, it's so ingrained in my mind as a NC resident that it's like a relfex...

    However, I haven't been pulled over by a cop in about 3 years (that was in VA and I had a "tinted license plate cover", which I just got a warning for), and that was before I had a CHP so it didn't matter anyway.

    It all comes down to this: If you carry in your car, DON'T do anything that would get you pulled over in the first place, and it won't be an issue to begin with.

    I mean, how hard is that?...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    But when I travel in VA, PA, or other "don't have to notify" states, I would most likely notify anyway, because if they run my tags, they're gonna know
    Huh? PA & VA have access to your NC's permit holder data base based upon license plates? no way. cite to authority of you have it.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    Yeah, here in NC, we are a "must notify" state. Any time you are addressed by an LEO in a traffic stop, if you have a CHP and are carrying, you MUST notify the officer of your permit and the fact you are carrying.

    But when I travel in VA, PA, or other "don't have to notify" states, I would most likely notify anyway, because if they run my tags, they're gonna know, and to be honest, it's so ingrained in my mind as a NC resident that it's like a relfex...

    However, I haven't been pulled over by a cop in about 3 years (that was in VA and I had a "tinted license plate cover", which I just got a warning for), and that was before I had a CHP so it didn't matter anyway.

    It all comes down to this: If you carry in your car, DON'T do anything that would get you pulled over in the first place, and it won't be an issue to begin with.

    I mean, how hard is that?...
    Damn, I hate pop quizes! :X

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    Mike,

    You are probably right. I meant "if they run my DL"--I miss-spoke on that one. I'm pretty sure NC CHP data isn't tied to NC vehicle tag number data, but it IS tied to DL info...

    NC drivers license checks done from a cruiser data terminal (in NC) will post a "tag" pointing to the NC CHP database. All states have access to all other state's DMV databases, but most don't have access to other state's DCI data (Here in NC it would be LiNX or NC AWARE). Some states have agreements with adjacent states that allow access to their databases--particularly states which have reciprocal enforcement agreements (like MD, VA, and DC all have the right to cite you for state-specific violations even if your car isn't registerd in that state).

    I don't know if NC has such an agreement with VA. It's quite possible that we don't because NC doesn't like to share it's LEA info with ANYONE--even citizens of NC...

    But a NC DMV check WILL post a CHP flag here in NC, and I'm pretty sure that flag would show in any state when they run your DL number or SSN. Probably NOT on your plates though...

    In VA, CHP info IS tied to plates. If you have a valid VA CHP, the LEO will know when he runs your plates, before he even gets out of the cruiser. But here in NC, CHP data is not ties to vehicle tag data--only to SSN or DL numbers...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggressionand this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    In VA, CHP info IS tied to plates.
    Technically no - the officer must query VCIN system - nothing is tied plates per se or DV records.

    One of these days i will re-title my cars in a trust or corporation somthing anonymous

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    I've been pulled over twice while I've been carrying or had a loaded firearm in reach. Both times I was leaving work as an armed security guard. The first time, I was not in a typical security uniform, though it did conform with state laws, and my firearm was in my center console.

    I did not inform the officer, but could not find my proof of insurance. The officer took my DL and registration and ran my info, when she returned she asked if I found the proof of insurance. I informed her that I did not, but that I didn't look in the center console where my handgun was located. She laughed and sent me on my way.

    The second time, I turned on my dome light and placed my hands on the steering wheel. The officer asked for the usual, and I informed him that I had a firearm on my right hip (I was in a typical security uniform at the time). He told me that was ok and I retrieved my info, making sure he could see my firearm at all times. I was let off again, and the officer thanked me for not being an a$$hat.

    Here in TN, out HCP numbers are the same as out DL numbers. Once the officer runs the DL, they know if you have an HCP. We have no duty to inform, but if you hand is going to go anywhere near your firearm while retrieving your info, you probably should tell the officer. Then the ball is in the officer's court, hopefully you didn't get pulled over by the LEO who thinks everyone with a gun is a criminal.

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    In Michigan, you are required to IMMEDIATELY disclose "I have a CPL, and I'm carrying openly/concealed at __location___ on my body/car."

    If you don't have a CPL and the weapon is stored in a proper case in accordance with state law, then nothing is required.

    -Richard-

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    Here in Louisiana if you are Conceal Carrying and you have a CHP you are required to inform the officer. If you are open carrying or the gun isn't on your person, maybe it's in the glove compartment or under the seat, you aren't required to inform.
    President/ Founding Member
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    Unless required by law, why would you bring up the subject? I always have my papers (please) ready before the cop gets to my window, including my CHP if concealing,and I keep my hands where he can see them. If he asks me to get out of the car I may consider telling him, maybe. But otherwise I say as little as possible and just play it cool.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Unless required by law, why would you bring up the subject? I always have my papers (please) ready before the cop gets to my window, including my CHP if concealing,and I keep my hands where he can see them. If he asks me to get out of the car I may consider telling him, maybe. But otherwise I say as little as possible and just play it cool.
    Lock the car after you. No right to know, likely no PC to search.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Unless required by law, why would you bring up the subject? I always have my papers (please) ready before the cop gets to my window, including my CHP if concealing,and I keep my hands where he can see them. If he asks me to get out of the car I may consider telling him, maybe. But otherwise I say as little as possible and just play it cool.
    Lock the car after you. No right to know, likely no PC to search.
    Well, locking the car won't help me if the pistol is on my hip, where it usually resides.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Unless required by law, why would you bring up the subject? I always have my papers (please) ready before the cop gets to my window, including my CHP if concealing,and I keep my hands where he can see them. If he asks me to get out of the car I may consider telling him, maybe. But otherwise I say as little as possible and just play it cool.
    Lock the car after you. No right to know, likely no PC to search.
    Well, locking the car won't help me if the pistol is on my hip, where it usually resides.
    Oops.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Unless required by law, why would you bring up the subject? I always have my papers (please) ready before the cop gets to my window, including my CHP if concealing,and I keep my hands where he can see them. If he asks me to get out of the car I may consider telling him, maybe. But otherwise I say as little as possible and just play it cool.
    Lock the car after you. No right to know, likely no PC to search.
    Well, locking the car won't help me if the pistol is on my hip, where it usually resides.
    Closing your windows and locking the doors is a good idea if requested to get out of the car. This will virtually eliminate any chance of a search of your vehicle, unless they have probably cause (hope I have that one right).


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Thanks for the great article Mike! I agree with you and Tomahawk and others there is no reason to say anymore than you have to about carrying a gun to the police.If you do you are asking for a hassel.

    I drive a lot and a little fast sometimes so I tend to get pulled over more than most people. I got pulled overlast springin NC in which I had to notify by law and he took my permit and didn't even ask about it as he was probably accustomed to doing so.

    I got pulled overlast summerin PA and was asked by the cop if I had any guns on me after seeing my bumper stickers. I gavemy permitto him and told him where the weapons were but he didn't ask to see them just told me to leave them where they were. I could tell he did not come accross that a lot without the duty to notify and was kidna nervous.I thought Iwas in for a long encounter, but I think the hott girl in the front seat helped. I can only imagine what would have happened if I would have just blurted out "I have a gun" when he came to the window!


    In the past, I've gotten pulled overa fewother times with a gun in the car and never mentioned it and never had a problem

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    Mike wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    But when I travel in VA, PA, or other "don't have to notify" states, I would most likely notify anyway, because if they run my tags, they're gonna know
    Huh? PA & VA have access to your NC's permit holder data base based upon license plates? no way. cite to authority of you have it.
    Don't even bother trying to cite that. Mike is correct, you don't know what your talking about. Each state uses a different system for their CHPs. Most cannot look them up when they run your tags. In VA, the VCIS is not accessed by non-VA states. Non-VA residents will not have their CHPs in the VCIS system. Some states do have the ability to look up a permit after you show it to them. I'm not sure how this is done but it is part of the reciprocity requirements for VA.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    In AR we are a "required to notify officer" at a routine traffic stop. AR law supposedly states that LEO do not have access to this information. Having been stopped 3 times and the officer already knew I had a permit. It is OK with me if my permit pops up with my vehicle license plate inquiry. Anything that makes the LEO more comfortable is OK with me.

    One ASP told me to hand him my weapon and I declined stating that I didn't feel comfortable reaching for and handing him a loaded weapon. HE GOT RED and reached for his gun demanding to have it. He never saw it and finally left me with just a traffic warning. But it was tense.


    I also reportedthe situationin writing to the ASP commander.

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    Gordon Shumway wrote:
    In AR we are a "required to notify officer" at a routine traffic stop. AR law supposedly states that LEO do not have access to this information. Having been stopped 3 times and the officer already knew I had a permit. It is OK with me if my permit pops up with my vehicle license plate inquiry. Anything that makes the LEO more comfortable is OK with me.

    One ASP told me to hand him my weapon and I declined stating that I didn't feel comfortable reaching for and handing him a loaded weapon. HE GOT RED and reached for his gun demanding to have it. He never saw it and finally left me with just a traffic warning. But it was tense.


    I also reportedthe situationin writing to the ASP commander.
    Unfortunately in VA it doesn't pop up on your lic. plate. It pops up when you are run through the VIRGINIA CRIMINAL INFORMATION SYSTEM. IN BIG RED LETTERS(I've heard).
    I think it serves to villainize the CHP holder, and put the officer on edge. I don't like it.
    I mean, why am I in the CRIMINAL DATABASE?
    It sets a bad tone for the rest of the encounter.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Someone should compile a list of "must notify" states.

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    simmonsjoe wrote:
    Gordon Shumway wrote:
    In AR we are a "required to notify officer" at a routine traffic stop. AR law supposedly states that LEO do not have access to this information. Having been stopped 3 times and the officer already knew I had a permit. It is OK with me if my permit pops up with my vehicle license plate inquiry. Anything that makes the LEO more comfortable is OK with me.

    One ASP told me to hand him my weapon and I declined stating that I didn't feel comfortable reaching for and handing him a loaded weapon. HE GOT RED and reached for his gun demanding to have it. He never saw it and finally left me with just a traffic warning. But it was tense.


    I also reportedthe situationin writing to the ASP commander.
    Unfortunately in VA it doesn't pop up on your lic. plate. It pops up when you are run through the VIRGINIA CRIMINAL INFORMATION SYSTEM. IN BIG RED LETTERS(I've heard).
    I think it serves to villainize the CHP holder, and put the officer on edge. I don't like it.
    I mean, why am I in the CRIMINAL DATABASE?
    It sets a bad tone for the rest of the encounter.
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

    In that the owner of the vehicle shows shows up on the license plate check and drivers license is cross referenced with list of CHPs, the officer will have some idea before he approaches the vehicle. I have been asked if I was carrying today early in the stop.

    I agree though that it is disconcerting to be considered a danger to LEO because we have a permit. Criminals seldom have permits; therefore, the driver with no permit is arguably a bigger threat to "officer safety" in that they do not have advance notice.

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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

    In that the owner of the vehicle shows shows up on the license plate check and drivers license is cross referenced with list of CHPs
    There is no cross reference per se with driver's licenses - if an officer runs a a check of a person's name thru the Virginia Criminal Information System (VCIN), he may get information about you, incuding whether or not you hold a CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court or state police. I say may because the VCIN has never been completely populated with all CHP holders.

    See 18.2-308 commanding VSP to put CHP info in VCIN - all gun rights organizers should know this issue and explain it to people to stop this old wives tale that somehow CHP status is embedded in DMV data - its not.

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    which can be difficult because in some states there's one standard for CHL holders and another for non-chl....like Texas....

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    Mike wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

    In that the owner of the vehicle shows shows up on the license plate check and drivers license is cross referenced with list of CHPs
    There is no cross reference per se with driver's licenses - if an officer runs a a check of a person's name thru the Virginia Criminal Information System (VCIN), he may get information about you, incuding whether or not you hold a CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court or state police. I say may because the VCIN has never been completely populated with all CHP holders.

    See 18.2-308 commanding VSP to put CHP info in VCIN - all gun rights organizers should know this issue and explain it to people to stop this old wives tale that somehow CHP status is embedded in DMV data - its not.
    Are you sure?

    VSP 2008 FACTS AND FIGURES
    Concealed Handgun Permits
    Since July 1, 1995, 407,792 concealed handgun permits have been issued as authorized by Section 18.2-308, Code of Virginia; 55,864 were issued in 2008 (34.7% increase) by Virginia Circuit Courts. During 2008, 724 nonresident concealed handgun permits were issued by the State Police, which is a 44% increase in the volume of nonresident permits issued in 2007.
    Pursuant to statute, the State Police enters the permit holder’s name and description in the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN) so that the permit's existence and current status will be made known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes. As of December 31, 2008, there were 172,132 active concealed handgun permits issued by Virginia circuit courts maintained in VCIN.
    VCIN Notes - July 2009

    Use of DMV Image Leads to an Arrest
    On July 2, 2009, at approximately 0300 hours, Arlington County Police responded to a call of a woman being attacked in a stairwell of an apartment building. This call turned out to be an attempted rape. A surveillance camera showed a car illegally parked in front of the building. The tag was inquired upon and a subsequent driver query with image was obtained on the registered owner. The attacker was positively identified through this image. Officers arrested the suspect when he came back to his car.
    These documents, taken together, suggest a LEO can query the tag of a vehicle, then query the registered owner to see if he has a CHP.

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    Repeater wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

    In that the owner of the vehicle shows shows up on the license plate check and drivers license is cross referenced with list of CHPs
    There is no cross reference per se with driver's licenses - if an officer runs a a check of a person's name thru the Virginia Criminal Information System (VCIN), he may get information about you, incuding whether or not you hold a CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court or state police. I say may because the VCIN has never been completely populated with all CHP holders.

    See 18.2-308 commanding VSP to put CHP info in VCIN - all gun rights organizers should know this issue and explain it to people to stop this old wives tale that somehow CHP status is embedded in DMV data - its not.
    Are you sure?

    VSP 2008 FACTS AND FIGURES
    Concealed Handgun Permits
    Since July 1, 1995, 407,792 concealed handgun permits have been issued as authorized by Section 18.2-308, Code of Virginia; 55,864 were issued in 2008 (34.7% increase) by Virginia Circuit Courts. During 2008, 724 nonresident concealed handgun permits were issued by the State Police, which is a 44% increase in the volume of nonresident permits issued in 2007.
    Pursuant to statute, the State Police enters the permit holder’s name and description in the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN) so that the permit's existence and current status will be made known to law-enforcement personnel accessing the Network for investigative purposes. As of December 31, 2008, there were 172,132 active concealed handgun permits issued by Virginia circuit courts maintained in VCIN.
    VCIN Notes - July 2009

    Use of DMV Image Leads to an Arrest
    On July 2, 2009, at approximately 0300 hours, Arlington County Police responded to a call of a woman being attacked in a stairwell of an apartment building. This call turned out to be an attempted rape. A surveillance camera showed a car illegally parked in front of the building. The tag was inquired upon and a subsequent driver query with image was obtained on the registered owner. The attacker was positively identified through this image. Officers arrested the suspect when he came back to his car.
    These documents, taken together, suggest a LEO can query the tag of a vehicle, then query the registered owner to see if he has a CHP.
    That to me seems like cross referencing - just two clicks rather than one and VSP's program could conceivably link this data direct.

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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