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Thread: Clarity on CC in Alcohol Serving Establishments

  1. #1
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    Can we CC (with permit of course) in Alcohol Serving Establishments?

    Have any of you OCd in one?

    Dave
    Marylander (ughhh), mailed permit to VA SP 12/18/09.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    No.:whaton't even THINK about CCing in a place that serves alcohol unless you meet very strict paramaters: you are an LEO or employee of the establishment, meeting the criteria here:

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed

    weapons; when lawful to carry.

    B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place

    of abode or the curtilage thereof.

    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises

    of any restaurant or club as defined in §
    4.1-100 for which a license

    to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption

    has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board

    under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein

    shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a

    concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or

    any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a

    concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such

    person has a concealed handgun permit.

    O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby

    authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on

    property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited

    by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.



    I think most if not all of us have OCed in places that serve alcohol because it is ILLEGAL in Virginia to CC there (for now).

    Everyone here that has been to an OC dinner has done it.

    Come on out and join us for an OC dinner and "meet the OCDO Family"!!!

    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate :celebrate
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Pretty much what MSC said.

    Take a look at the Open Carry Experiences in NOVA thread and you'll see that we Open Carry pretty much everywhere it's not illegal to do so.

    And while it's not illegal to drink while carrying (but not to the point of intoxication), most of us view it as being bad form for The Cause.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Remember guys, that the CC prohibition only pertains to restaurants and clubs (4.1-100), not every place that serves alcoholic beverages. There's lots of ABC licensed places that serve where you can carry concealed. It all depends on what the license designation is.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Definitions from VA Code 4.1-100:

    "Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.
    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.

    "Club" means any private nonprofit corporation or association which is the owner, lessee, or occupant of an establishment operated solely for a national, social, patriotic, political, athletic, or other like purpose, but not for pecuniary gain, the advantages of which belong to all of the members. It also means the establishment so operated. A corporation or association shall not lose its status as a club because of the conduct of charitable gaming conducted pursuant to Article 1.1:1 (§ 18.2-340.15 et seq.) of Chapter 8 of Title 18.2 in which nonmembers participate frequently or in large numbers, provided that no alcoholic beverages are served or consumed in the room where such charitable gaming is being conducted while such gaming is being conducted and that no alcoholic beverages are made available upon the premises to any person who is neither a member nor a bona fide guest of a member.
    Any such corporation or association which has been declared exempt from federal and state income taxes as one which is not organized and operated for pecuniary gain or profit shall be deemed a nonprofit corporation or association.



    Note that 18.2-308 J3 prohibits CC in a restaurant as defined above, and also note that the definition of a restaurant for a beer/wine license does NOT specify that a "restaurant" license be issued; it merely requires "special space and accomodation", and not that meals be provided, but merely "other foods". Some lawyers might argue that a stadium which serves beer and pretzels to those sitting in stadium seating would therefore constitute a "restaurant" even if the concessionaire does not possess a restaurant license from the VABC. Caution is indicated, because unfortunately, our legislators do not possess the gift of clarity when writing bills. An outdoor festival in a city park, for instance, should be okay for CC since meals and other foods are NOT "regularly sold" there. You get the idea...
    We've been looking at ways to clarify this, but the best thing to do is just get rid of the restaurant ban on CC altogether.



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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    OC in Virginia is legal in that it is not disallowed by statute. No permit is required to do so.

    OC is presently the only way to carry in restaurants and clubs which serve alcohol. I have told more than one person, "The governor required that I do it."

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    theschultz wrote:
    Can we CC (with permit of course) in Alcohol Serving Establishments?

    Have any of you OCd in one?

    Dave
    Marylander (ughhh), mailed permit to VA SP 12/18/09.
    As has been mentioned, you must OC in establishments were ABC-ON is displayed.

    "Have any of you OCd in one?". We do it all the time down here. I did yesterday. Come join us.. experience freedom for a change.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    Remember guys, that the CC prohibition only pertains to restaurants and clubs (4.1-100), not every place that serves alcoholic beverages. There's lots of ABC licensed places that serve where you can carry concealed. It all depends on what the license designation is.
    This may be true, but it is just easier and safer legally to OC anywhere alcohol is served.

    There is a lot of potential to make a mistake and wind up in a jam by trying to wend your way through arcane variations in the law when you could just take the straight line through it all by using OC anywhere alcohol is served.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    As has been mentioned, you must OC in establishments were ABC-ON is displayed.

    "Have any of you OCd in one?". We do it all the time down here. I did yesterday. Come join us.. experience freedom for a change.
    I do like that idea.

    Notice - All Patrons MUST be armed. :celebrate

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    There's lots of ABC licensed places that serve where you can carry concealed.
    Really? Can you list a couple of examples?
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  11. #11
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    There's lots of ABC licensed places that serve where you can carry concealed.
    Really? Can you list a couple of examples?
    Sure...

    Wineries, Bed & Breakfast, Banquet Facility, Day Spa, Museum, Performing Arts Facility and any one of another 20 or 30 some odd places.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    ed wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    There's lots of ABC licensed places that serve where you can carry concealed.
    Really? Can you list a couple of examples?
    Sure... Wineries, Bed & Breakfast, Banquet Facility, Day Spa, Museum, Performing Arts Facility and any one of another 20 or 30 some odd places.
    What about bowling alleys? The serve food and beer but are not considered a restaurant.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    As has been mentioned, you must OC in establishments were ABC-ON is displayed.

    "Have any of you OCd in one?". We do it all the time down here. I did yesterday. Come join us.. experience freedom for a change.
    I do like that idea.

    Notice - All Patrons MUST be armed. :celebrate

    Yata hey
    Wouldn't it be a kick to see a sign saying this? Oh my heavens, we can't do that. Think of the children.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    As has been mentioned, you must OC in establishments were ABC-ON is displayed.

    "Have any of you OCd in one?". We do it all the time down here. I did yesterday. Come join us.. experience freedom for a change.
    I do like that idea.

    Notice - All Patrons MUST be armed. :celebrate

    ******** Yata hey
    Wouldn't it be a kick to see a sign saying this? Oh my heavens, we can't do that. Think of the children.
    Been there done that -

    Gun town U.S.A., revisited - success of Kennesaw, GA's gun ownership requirement law in preventing crime

    In March 1982, responding to the passage of a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Illinois, and the fawning media coverage that accompanied it, the city council of Kennesaw, Georgia, decided to make a statement of its own. With exceptions duly made for convicted felons, the disabled, and those with religious objections, the council passed (unanimously) an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    45acpForMe wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    ed wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    There's lots of ABC licensed places that serve where you can carry concealed.
    Really? Can you list a couple of examples?
    Sure... Wineries, Bed & Breakfast, Banquet Facility, Day Spa, Museum, Performing Arts Facility and any one of another 20 or 30 some odd places.
    What about bowling alleys? The serve food and beer but are not considered a restaurant.
    Are they? They serve food and beer and usually have an area for people to eat at. Interesting

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    OC'd to Joe's Crab Shack in Hampton today...no issues. CC'd everywhere else since I was wearing a coat.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote
    What about bowling alleys? The serve food and beer but are not considered a restaurant.
    Are they? They serve food and beer and usually have an area for people to eat at. Interesting
    This was discussed here a while back. The CHP law defines restaurant differently than the ABC licenses do. Based on that, even though a bowling alley may not have a "Restaurant license" from the ABC, I think they do fall under the definition in 4.1-100.

    But the places that ProShooter gave as examples don't.

    TFred


  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    nova wrote:
    45acpForMe wrote
    What about bowling alleys? The serve food and beer but are not considered a restaurant.
    Are they? They serve food and beer and usually have an area for people to eat at. Interesting
    This was discussed here a while back. The CHP law defines restaurant differently than the ABC licenses do. Based on that, even though a bowling alley may not have a "Restaurant license" from the ABC, I think they do fall under the definition in 4.1-100.

    But the places that ProShooter gave as examples don't.

    TFred
    Have OCd at bowling alleys in Richmond - just remember to use a good retention holster so no gutter guns.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    As has been mentioned, you must OC in establishments were ABC-ON is displayed.

    "Have any of you OCd in one?". We do it all the time down here. I did yesterday. Come join us.. experience freedom for a change.
    I do like that idea.

    Notice - All Patrons MUST be armed. :celebrate

    Yata hey
    Wouldn't it be a kick to see a sign saying this? Oh my heavens, we can't do that. Think of the children.
    Been there done that -

    Gun town U.S.A., revisited - success of Kennesaw, GA's gun ownership requirement law in preventing crime

    In March 1982, responding to the passage of a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Illinois, and the fawning media coverage that accompanied it, the city council of Kennesaw, Georgia, decided to make a statement of its own. With exceptions duly made for convicted felons, the disabled, and those with religious objections, the council passed (unanimously) an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun.
    I well remember that. Kennesaw did this for two reasons. 1) As you mentioned, to thumb their noses at Morton Grove and the mindless insanity of their town council, and 2) because of creeping criminal activity coming from the Atlanta area posed a threat to their little town and it made so much more sense for the people to be armed then to spend money on increasing the police budget.

    The result? In the first year, Kennesaw saw a decrease of residential burglaries of 89% while Morton Grove enjoyed an increase of the same crimes of 43%.

    What did Einstein say about insanity.....?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  20. #20
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    As has been mentioned, you must OC in establishments were ABC-ON is displayed.

    "Have any of you OCd in one?". We do it all the time down here. I did yesterday. Come join us.. experience freedom for a change.
    I do like that idea.

    Notice - All Patrons MUST be armed. :celebrate

    Yata hey
    Wouldn't it be a kick to see a sign saying this? Oh my heavens, we can't do that. Think of the children.
    Been there done that -

    Gun town U.S.A., revisited - success of Kennesaw, GA's gun ownership requirement law in preventing crime

    In March 1982, responding to the passage of a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Illinois, and the fawning media coverage that accompanied it, the city council of Kennesaw, Georgia, decided to make a statement of its own. With exceptions duly made for convicted felons, the disabled, and those with religious objections, the council passed (unanimously) an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun.
    I well remember that. Kennesaw did this for two reasons. 1) As you mentioned, to thumb their noses at Morton Grove and the mindless insanity of their town council, and 2) because of creeping criminal activity coming from the Atlanta area posed a threat to their little town and it made so much more sense for the people to be armed then to spend money on increasing the police budget.

    The result? In the first year, Kennesaw saw a decrease of residential burglaries of 89% while Morton Grove enjoyed an increase of the same crimes of 43%.

    What did Einstein say about insanity.....?
    Einstein said nothing about insanity. It is a common misquote.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_...#Misattributed

    Earliest Cite is by Rita Mae Brown.
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rita_Mae_Brown

    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"

    It deals with repeating an action and doesn't apply to the situation you discussed.

    Happy New Year!
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Well how about the insanity of doing nothing effective to solve the problem - like passing more restrictive gun laws.

    In this case, Kennesaw made a very rational decision that had very positive results. MAIG should take their blinders off and learn from a good object lesson.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Agree that Einstein said nothing about insanity, but IIRC he was the author of something along the lines of "The only two things I am certain of are the infinitness of the university and the stupidity of mankind, and I sometimes have my doubts about the former."

    Rather than have to carry a rulebook more complex than that of MLB [the "infield fly" rule] it's easier to just OC even if it means doing the infamous Virginia Tuck. As was mentioned, it's the fault of Timmy Kaine if anybody asks.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Einstein Discovered that Time=Money.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  24. #24
    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    I find it easier to not bother looking for that ABC license - I just OC wherever we go to eat.

    It does make McDonald's more interesting sometimes.

  25. #25
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    You can also use this website to check what type of license the establishment has:
    http://www.abc.virginia.gov/licensee...=retaillicense

    The AMF bowling alley on Dale Blvd is indeed listed as a restaurant license.

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