Just about drew on a solicitor

imported post

On the afternoon of NYE, DW went out to get some things for the evening. She called me to let me know DD2 had fallen asleep in the car. She said she'd swing by the house and asked me to fetch her out of the car so she didn't have to wakeup at the next errand.

The doorbell rang and I knew it wouldn't be her. I sent DD1 to her room and looked through the door from across the room. I saw aman in a black Comcast knit cap and thought, "Oh, good. I can yell at him for the lies the last Comcast solicitor gave me." Conversation followed somewhat thus:

"We need to get into your back yard."

(Not even a hello. Didn't see a truck or any other "we" around.)

"What for?"

"To work on the cable."


"We don't have cable."

"Well, you have Qwest, don't you?"

"No, we don't have a land line so there's no need for you to go back there."

"Do you have satelite?"

(Going high orange at this point. What does Comcast need with my satelite?)

"Yes, but you don't need access to it."

"Every house has a box behind it for cable and phone access."

"Yeah, that box is behind my back fence and you can't access it from my yard. Talk to my neighbour since it's more accessible from his side, but you don't need to be in my yard."

"Well,here's my card.Anyway we have a special for satelite customers. (pulls out a color double sided printed flyer) You get three in one for cable, internet, and phone for one price."

"I told you I don't have a landline and that's more than I pay for internet. I hardly pay $15 for satelite."

(I'm about to go red here as he's not listening very much to be actually selling.)

"You just have basic?"

"Yeah, so no thanks."

"Ok, well, they'll be doing some work back there."

"NO. You do not need to be in my yard."

"Ok, well here's my card." (Again.)

"There is no cable access back there. Youdo NOTneed to be in my yard."

Ichecked the street, closed the door, and yelled for DD1 to go downstairs. I looked out back and then went to the handgun box,popped the 17 round magazine into my 9mm S&W Model 59, and put it inan IWBholster at my SOB. I was wearing scrubs, so sinching them down was a trick.

I took a seat upstairs and told DD1 to stay downstairs until I said to come up. I saw DW's car coming and went outside and checked the street. I went back in to get something she'd asked me to bring out to her when she called. She saw me OCing when I turned my back so when I collected DD2 she asked in a low voice, "Why are you carrying?" I briefly explained the situation and she said "okay". Gods, I love that woman.

I put DD2 to bed and left DD1 downstairs for awhile, mainly as an exercise. I called her up and she wanted to play in her room. When I initially went to the safe, the thought that went through my head was, "We need to drill more for this." I talked with her a bit about listening to instructions when it could be an emergency situation. I likened it to the talks we've had about "bad strangers". I didn't wantto unneccesarily scare her about the situation we could have been in.

When DW got home, I recounted the full events. She agreed that even if it was a legit solicitor who wasn't very good at his job there were too damned many red flags to not react defensively.We decided it was time to establish family code words and talked to both girls about it.

Looking back, the thing that bothered me most even if he was legitimate was his entitlement attitude to my property. There was ZERO respect for my property. He did not ask for access. He didn't give me a "by your leave" explanation for the need for it. He felt entitled to justTELL me he was coming onto my property. Asthough I was LUCKY to get that much from him and that he was doing me some sort of favor. Oh, I don't think so.

This attitude of lack of respect for boundries has been bothering me more and more. From requesting my personal information for a simple retail transaction to some "requirement" about vaccines. I can cope with a "request". But when a "request" comes with some implied threat if I don't comply, you can keep it. If a clerk asks for my phone number, I say, "No, thank you." Usually, they'll type in a dummy number and we go about our business. But once in a while there is that "look". Or they tell me "I need your phone number". No, you do not. Nor do I "need" to conduct business here with that attitude. Nor do I need to send my children to your schoolif you are going to dictate things to me that have nothing to do with their education.

imported post

The guy was obviously bad. No legitimate Comcast employee is going to be working onNew Year's Eve; emergencies that would bring repair crews out, like a downed power line, do not include interrupted cable service and certainly not simple solicitation of new business.

Butyour post implies you weren't armed when you opened the door...

imported post

Working on NYE did cross my mind. But it was NYE, not NY day. Out here we get a lot of subcontractors working a side job for everything from cable to magazines to meat. Since he had the color preprinted flyers in an organizer (rather than photocopies wadded up in his hand like I've seen some people carrying) and his accent matched the unusual ethnicity of the name on his business card, I gave him the benefit of doubt.

I believehis "we need to work on your cable" was a ploy to manuever consent to switch to his commission. I've had long distance sellers try todo the same thing. "Isn't long distancejust so expensive? Okay, I'm going to conference in a third party verifier and you just tell her you want to pay less." They're betting on the odds that switching back will be too much of a hassle and even ifthey lose a couple commissions, they can quickly swindle more volume than legitimate sales.

Aside from the catwho kept getting in our pet door, perpetually carrying around the house or keeping a firearm by the front door isn't worth the risk vs.logistic for me. There are odds that I'll be carrying anyhow. Now, when I lived downtown, I kept pepper spray by the front door (and had to use it more than once, mainly on drunks who got lost in my building) and there wasn't anywhere I could sit in my apartment without having a weapon within arm's reach. There's no reason not to mount a key chain with pepper spray out of the reach of the kids, but within reach of DW. I think I'll do that.

imported post

They have an easement to their cable box if it's on your property even if you don't subscribe. I'm not saying the guy was legit, but if he was, you can't deny access to their equipment. If not on your property, the point is of course moot. Secondly, you do not have the right to use deadly force against simple trespass in CO or any other state. Only reasonable force, and if he was legit, you don't even have that right in the scenario I described. I'm glad it worked out, but deadly force under the Castle Doctrine only applied to someone in your domicile, not on your property.

imported post

Yeah, Ichecked about the easment when I bought the house. His attitude not only torqued me off but gave me lots of bad vibes. A work truck and a "Sorry to bother you" would have gotten a much different reaction. The box is outside my property and the fence around itis actually falling down on my neigbour's side.

I wasn'tgoing to use deadly force just if he went in the back yard, but like I said, too much was making my gut scream to not prepare myself if something escalated. Ididn't wantto let a ploy to get my guard down turn into something worse.

imported post

mahkagari wrote:

Working on NYE did cross my mind. But it was NYE, not NY day. Out here we get a lot of subcontractors working a side job for everything from cable to magazines to meat. Since he had the color preprinted flyers in an organizer (rather than photocopies wadded up in his hand like I've seen some people carrying) and his accent matched the unusual ethnicity of the name on his business card, I gave him the benefit of doubt.

I believe his "we need to work on your cable" was a ploy to manuever consent to switch to his commission. I've had long distance sellers try to do the same thing. "Isn't long distance just so expensive? Okay, I'm going to conference in a third party verifier and you just tell her you want to pay less." They're betting on the odds that switching back will be too much of a hassle and even if they lose a couple commissions, they can quickly swindle more volume than legitimate sales.

Aside from the cat who kept getting in our pet door, perpetually carrying around the house or keeping a firearm by the front door isn't worth the risk vs. logistic for me. There are odds that I'll be carrying anyhow. Now, when I lived downtown, I kept pepper spray by the front door (and had to use it more than once, mainly on drunks who got lost in my building) and there wasn't anywhere I could sit in my apartment without having a weapon within arm's reach. There's no reason not to mount a key chain with pepper spray out of the reach of the kids, but within reach of DW. I think I'll do that.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you did the right thing Nathan. I should break out my old stun gun and keep it handy for a non-lethal alternative.

imported post

Gunslinger wrote:

They have an easement to their cable box if it's on your property even if you don't subscribe. I'm not saying the guy was legit, but if he was, you can't deny access to their equipment. If not on your property, the point is of course moot. Secondly, you do not have the right to use deadly force against simple trespass in CO or any other state. Only reasonable force, and if he was legit, you don't even have that right in the scenario I described. I'm glad it worked out, but deadly force under the Castle Doctrine only applied to someone in your domicile, not on your property. 

Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but I do believe that any company that routinely needs access to homeowner yards probably has a system in place to deal with suspicious home owners. They would of course try to limit unease with things like a logo branded truck and/or having the home office call you and verify that they do indeed have work in your area.

If I was a betting man I'd say Nate would probably hold the man at gunpoint until the police arrived and confirmed he worked for Comcast or arrested him for trespass. With kids at home it's even more important to have your head on level, if he [Nathan] was to get arrested, I think the girls go to Social Services until they find his DW (I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've read something like that once)- that's something that as a parent I have at the back of my mind at all times when I carry.

I'm with Nathan on this one, this guy was too reluctant to provide proof of a need for access, and the fact that he apparently went on his way without ever entering the yard seems to paint him as anything but a legitimate Comcast employee.

If Nathan wanted to push the issue, he could call the local Comcast office and check to see if they had any work orders being done on that day/time (Comcast workers note arrival times, it would be easy to pinpoint this instance). If the answer is negative, then at least Comcast is aware of someone using their name as a front for possibly malicious means.

imported post

Bad Mojo wrote:

he could call the local Comcast office and check to see if they had any work orders being done on that day/time (Comcast workers note arrival times, it would be easy to pinpoint this instance). If the answer is negative, then at least Comcast is aware of someone using their name as a front for possibly malicious means.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty convinced it was a scamming subcontractor trying to boost his numbers than a major BG.He wasn'thonest for damned sure, but he wasprobably at least legitimately with Comcast.Telling them their subs are using high pressure sales isn't going to benefit me any.I was half and half at the time, but it was as good a time for a drill as any.

imported post

mahkagari wrote:

Bad Mojo wrote:

he could call the local Comcast office and check to see if they had any work orders being done on that day/time (Comcast workers note arrival times, it would be easy to pinpoint this instance). If the answer is negative, then at least Comcast is aware of someone using their name as a front for possibly malicious means.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty convinced it was a scamming subcontractor trying to boost his numbers than a major BG. He wasn't honest for damned sure, but he was probably at least legitimately with Comcast. Telling them their subs are using high pressure sales isn't going to benefit me any. I was half and half at the time, but it was as good a time for a drill as any.

Click to expand...

It's better to be over prepared than risk being under prepared!

imported post

Bad Mojo wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

They have an easement to their cable box if it's on your property even if you don't subscribe. I'm not saying the guy was legit, but if he was, you can't deny access to their equipment. If not on your property, the point is of course moot. Secondly, you do not have the right to use deadly force against simple trespass in CO or any other state. Only reasonable force, and if he was legit, you don't even have that right in the scenario I described. I'm glad it worked out, but deadly force under the Castle Doctrine only applied to someone in your domicile, not on your property.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but I do believe that any company that routinely needs access to homeowner yards probably has a system in place to deal with suspicious home owners. They would of course try to limit unease with things like a logo branded truck and/or having the home office call you and verify that they do indeed have work in your area.

If I was a betting man I'd say Nate would probably hold the man at gunpoint until the police arrived and confirmed he worked for Comcast or arrested him for trespass. With kids at home it's even more important to have your head on level, if he [Nathan] was to get arrested, I think the girls go to Social Services until they find his DW (I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've read something like that once)- that's something that as a parent I have at the back of my mind at all times when I carry.

I'm with Nathan on this one, this guy was too reluctant to provide proof of a need for access, and the fact that he apparently went on his way without ever entering the yard seems to paint him as anything but a legitimate Comcast employee.

If Nathan wanted to push the issue, he could call the local Comcast office and check to see if they had any work orders being done on that day/time (Comcast workers note arrival times, it would be easy to pinpoint this instance). If the answer is negative, then at least Comcast is aware of someone using their name as a front for possibly malicious means.

Click to expand...

If you point a gun at a trespasser, you commit aggravated assault. You can carry a gun when checking out your property, but you cannot point it at someone unless you're prepared to defend against a felony charge by claiming you were in fear of death or grievous bodily harm. Asking for ID from Comcast--with a holstered pistol, would have been my choice. If he didn't have it, tell him to get off your property--with the gun still in the holster. Remember: unarmed trespass is at best a misdemeanor; aggravated assault is always a felony. If he held the guy at gunpoint, he would be arrested 9 times out of 10. If you can't eject a trespasser by reasonable--not deadly force or the threat of it, your duty is to call the cops.

imported post

Gunslinger wrote:

Bad Mojo wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

They have an easement to their cable box if it's on your property even if you don't subscribe. I'm not saying the guy was legit, but if he was, you can't deny access to their equipment. If not on your property, the point is of course moot. Secondly, you do not have the right to use deadly force against simple trespass in CO or any other state. Only reasonable force, and if he was legit, you don't even have that right in the scenario I described. I'm glad it worked out, but deadly force under the Castle Doctrine only applied to someone in your domicile, not on your property.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but I do believe that any company that routinely needs access to homeowner yards probably has a system in place to deal with suspicious home owners. They would of course try to limit unease with things like a logo branded truck and/or having the home office call you and verify that they do indeed have work in your area.

If I was a betting man I'd say Nate would probably hold the man at gunpoint until the police arrived and confirmed he worked for Comcast or arrested him for trespass. With kids at home it's even more important to have your head on level, if he [Nathan] was to get arrested, I think the girls go to Social Services until they find his DW (I may be wrong, but I'm sure I've read something like that once)- that's something that as a parent I have at the back of my mind at all times when I carry.

I'm with Nathan on this one, this guy was too reluctant to provide proof of a need for access, and the fact that he apparently went on his way without ever entering the yard seems to paint him as anything but a legitimate Comcast employee.

If Nathan wanted to push the issue, he could call the local Comcast office and check to see if they had any work orders being done on that day/time (Comcast workers note arrival times, it would be easy to pinpoint this instance). If the answer is negative, then at least Comcast is aware of someone using their name as a front for possibly malicious means.

Click to expand...

If you point a gun at a trespasser, you commit aggravated assault. You can carry a gun when checking out your property, but you cannot point it at someone unless you're prepared to defend against a felony charge by claiming you were in fear of death or grievous bodily harm. Asking for ID from Comcast--with a holstered pistol, would have been my choice. If he didn't have it, tell him to get off your property--with the gun still in the holster. Remember: unarmed trespass is at best a misdemeanor; aggravated assault is always a felony. If he held the guy at gunpoint, he would be arrested 9 times out of 10. If you can't eject a trespasser by reasonable--not deadly force or the threat of it, your duty is to call the cops.

Click to expand...

Good advice. I agree that if I look out my window and see a guy in my backyard, running out with a shotgun pointed at his head isn't a logical first step, I'd probably go concealed or even unarmed and tell the DW to keep watch. If however, I have already spoken the man prior to the trespass and stated that he is not allowed to enter my property, and I find him rummaging around in my backyard, I'm obviously dealing with someone that has already demonstrated a lack of respect for my property. I think at that point while I probably won't walk out of the house with gun drawn I'm definitely walking out on a level of alert far higher than I would on simple trespass, and would definitely follow your advice in letting it known I'm armed without threatening.

The only problem with the open carry approach is the lack of witness and the way the law tends to look at the unarmed person as the victim regardless of circumstance, specifically if they are the first to call 911. The NRA has taken to advising that members not display bumper stickers or decals on their cars because instances were happening where they would allegedly cut someone off, and to get "even" the other person would call the cops and claim you flashed a gun in your window, banking on you possibly carrying due to the sticker. Thanks to carefully wording the complaint with non-commitment phrases like "it looked like a gun," and even if you aren't carrying you get to be hassled by the police. If you are carrying, you get arrested and get to pay a lawyer to try to prove your innocence.

Unfortunately I can see the possibility of the same situation here, you may keep it in the holster and never lay a hand on it but you better be the first to call the cops and report it because if the other guy calls 911 and claims you drew on him, it may come down to you defending yourself in court. I guess best case scenario you have time to grab a voice recorder or set up a camera, should be easy enough if the guy is in the backyard?

imported post

Gunslinger wrote:

Secondly, you do not have the right to use deadly force against simple trespass in CO or any other state. Only reasonable force, and if he was legit, you don't even have that right in the scenario I described. I'm glad it worked out, but deadly force under the Castle Doctrine only applied to someone in your domicile, not on your property.

Click to expand...

Imay haveposted something about this before--I don't remember. The "Make my Day" law, as written, is fairly restrictive. However, over the last ten years or so, juries across the state have consistently expanded its protections.


http://www.gazette.com/articles/police-61034-fox-auto.html

Burglar's killer forewarned police

August 28, 2009 8:24 PM

LANCE BENZEL

A business owner cleared by a grand jury in the fatal shooting of a burglar at his Colorado Springs auto shop last April warned police after an earlier burglary that he was prepared to kill to protect his property.

Jovan Milanovic, 30, called police on Easter to report a burglary at Southwest Auto Sales on Platte Place and told an officer that, after a spate of break-ins, he would shoot any thieves who returned, according to a police report released Thursday.

A week later, after lying in wait inside the business, the mechanic fatally shot 20-year-old Robert Johnson Fox after Fox and an accomplice scaled a fence and climbed into the auto lot. Fox’s friend, who escaped uninjured, told police that the shooter and another man ran toward the pair, one of them shouting, “I’m going to (expletive) kill you!”

Milanovic told police that his father and brother-in-law, who were with him during the early morning stakeout, shouted, “Get him! Get him!”

Fox, of Colorado Springs, had a knife strapped to his ankle and others in his pockets, but Milanovic did not report seeing the weapons and said Fox did not approach him or the two other men.

Police withheld the report until after a grand jury convened by 4th Judicial District Attorney Dan May ruled last week there was insufficient evidence to indict Milanovic, who was never arrested.

The 145-page report paints an occasionally combative account of police interviews after the slaying. Milanovic clung to the position that he did nothing wrong even as he acknowledged lying about key details and admitted that he played a role in hiding the carbine rifle he used to fire the fatal shot.

His father, Ljuban Milanovic, told officers that at least one of the burglars was armed and fired first during the encounter. No one corroborated that claim, and detectives found no evidence to support it.

------------------------

And here's a longerarticle with more details.
http://www.gazette.com/news/auto-61011-police-kill.html

imported post

i've had a few shady characters knock on my door the last couple weeks.

first one i had the gun stuffed in the back of myshorts while i talked to the crackhead asking for gas money.

second one i had the gun in my hand behind my back, safety off while i talked to the drunk guy who was asking for money for medicine for his sick kid

third one i had the gun stuffed in the pants at 2 o clock in plain view while i talked to the steak salesman

i think from now on, all solicitors and otherwise unwelcome characters will get a good look at the pistol on me so they can rethink their requests. the steak salesman who saw the pistol was the one who took "no" for an answer the first time.

imported post

bomber wrote:

i think from now on, all solicitors and otherwise unwelcome characters will get a good look at the pistol on me so they can rethink their requests. the steak salesman who saw the pistol was the one who took "no" for an answer the first time.

Click to expand...

To be fair, thesefolks are for the most part just trying to make a living and every once in a while there is something you'll be glad you opened the door for. An armed society is a polite society, but that doesn't mean we have to meet everyone we meet with suspicion and aggression.

With that said, in regard to Bomber's post I just have to comment "Hee hee hee."

imported post

bomber wrote:

i've had a few shady characters knock on my door the last couple weeks.

first one i had the gun stuffed in the back of myshorts while i talked to the crackhead asking for gas money.

second one i had the gun in my hand behind my back, safety off while i talked to the drunk guy who was asking for money for medicine for his sick kid

third one i had the gun stuffed in the pants at 2 o clock in plain view while i talked to the steak salesman

i think from now on, all solicitors and otherwise unwelcome characters will get a good look at the pistol on me so they can rethink their requests. the steak salesman who saw the pistol was the one who took "no" for an answer the first time.

Click to expand...

That sounds just like me

A few years ago my neighbor was the victim of a home invasion. A "roofing company" salesman knocked on her door. She said he even had a bright yellow tshirt with a company logo on it. She opened the door and he pushed his way in and tied her up and stole her medication.

I'm 5'8" 130 pounds.. Lots of guys, even roofing salesmen, are much bigger than me... I'll keep my pistol on deck...

imported post

yeah, i know people are just trying to make a living, but for every bona fide solicitor who comes to my door, i get at least 5 people who have no business knocking on my door. someone knocked on my door about a year ago when my wife was home. she was smart enough not to answer. then they tried to break in. i'm not gonna take that chance anymore. if they really are selling something, chances are I'm not buying anyway.

imported post

bomber wrote:

yeah, i know people are just trying to make a living, but for every bona fide solicitor who comes to my door, i get at least 5 people who have no business knocking on my door. someone knocked on my door about a year ago when my wife was home. she was smart enough not to answer. then they tried to break in. i'm not gonna take that chance anymore. if they really are selling something, chances are I'm not buying anyway.

Click to expand...

Hey that's perfectly fine... Just remember

"Yesterday, 07:06 PM
Monty Ealerman
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 4,361

I think we have a 1st Amendment right to remain silent, along with our 5th Amendment rights, but I think that the Officer's right to be safe is more important.
"

Be sure it's not a cop selling BS door to door lol

imported post

lol...yeah.

imported post

Looks like I haven't missed much.

imported post

I always answer the door while carrying. At the first hint of any sales pitch, at all, I say "Not interested" as I'm shutting the door.

That tends to keep most sales people out of my yard, if not the neighborhood.