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Thread: Denied my CHP

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    Regular Member 1000ydshooter's Avatar
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    Today i found out i denied my chp application here in isle of wight county.I have been a resident in the county for 39yrs,minor criminal record (A couple bounced checks about 10yrs ago,and 3 speeding tickets.) what i want to know is what can i do to protest this.i have requested a face to face with the sheriff as it was a letter of no recomendation to the judge that caused it.Any other ideas as how to proceede.
    FREEDOM ISNT FREE. BUT THE UNITED STATES MARINES ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY YOUR SHARE!!

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    You can request an Ore Tenus hearing. Call the Clerk's Office to find out the procedure for filing that.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    18.2-308(L)

    Any person denied a permit to carry a concealed handgun under the provisions of this section may present a petition for review to the Court of Appeals. The petition for review shall be filed within 60 days of the expiration of the time for requesting an ore tenus hearing pursuant to subsection I, or if an ore tenus hearing is requested, within 60 days of the entry of the final order of the circuit court following the hearing. The petition shall be accompanied by a copy of the original papers filed in the circuit court, including a copy of the order of the circuit court denying the permit. Subject to the provisions of subsection B of § 17.1-410, the decision of the Court of Appeals or judge shall be final. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if the decision to deny the permit is reversed upon appeal, taxable costs incurred by the person shall be paid by the Commonwealth.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member 1000ydshooter's Avatar
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    Thanks guys thats a start let me see how my sit down with the sheriff goes then work from there.
    FREEDOM ISNT FREE. BUT THE UNITED STATES MARINES ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY YOUR SHARE!!

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    1000ydshooter wrote:
    Thanks guys thats a start let me see how my sit down with the sheriff goes then work from there.
    What did his letter say?
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member 1000ydshooter's Avatar
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    I Quote "A review of the applicants criminal records indicates he has several charges,indicating he has a history of ignoring the laws of the commomwealth."

    "i am therefore reluctant to recommend that he be given a permit to carry a concealed weapon."
    FREEDOM ISNT FREE. BUT THE UNITED STATES MARINES ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY YOUR SHARE!!

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    There are very few things a Sheriff can say that would cause denial of a CHP.

    Sheriffmay have gotten a bogus hit on a background check???

    Your clock is ticking ask for a hearing and FOIA the Sheriff.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    That does not sound like a reasonable cause for denial. The Sheriff saying that he is "reluctant" should not imply that he does not.

    Traffic offenses and non-violent misdemeanors, regardless of the volume, should not (are not?) lawful extent to deny.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  9. #9
    Regular Member 1000ydshooter's Avatar
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    Thats what i was thinking as well had spme identity theft a few years back.got it cleared up on my State police record.ill keep ya'll posted.
    FREEDOM ISNT FREE. BUT THE UNITED STATES MARINES ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY YOUR SHARE!!

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    Who the hell cares what the Sheriff thinks?

    Paragraph E of 18.2-308 is extremely specific. Unless you fall into one of the 20 disqualifications the permit should have been issued!

    I still find myself wondering how many people are denied for no good reason and just give in.

    Good luck….

  11. #11
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    That does not sound like a reasonable cause for denial. The Sheriff saying that he is "reluctant" should not imply that he does not.

    Traffic offenses and non-violent misdemeanors, regardless of the volume, should not (are not?) lawful extent to deny.
    The problem here stems from subdivsion E13 of Code § 18.2-308:

    An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
    What a mess. The ideal remedy is to repeal that subdivision altogether. An alternative, attempted before, is to limit the damage to the previous 3 to 5 years.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    1000ydshooter wrote:
    I Quote "A review of the applicants criminal records indicates he has several charges,indicating he has a history of ignoring the laws of the commomwealth."

    "i am therefore reluctant to recommend that he be given a permit to carry a concealed weapon."
    Tell him that you weren't looking to carry a concealed weapon. Only a concealed handgun!

    and besides, I dont see how his letter satisfies the requirement of "An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others"

    This letter stems from some bad check and driving offenses?.
    James Reynolds

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    1000ydshooter wrote:
    I Quote "A review of the applicants criminal records indicates he has several charges,indicating he has a history of ignoring the laws of the commomwealth."

    "i am therefore reluctant to recommend that he be given a permit to carry a concealed weapon."
    It is not up to him to "recommend" anything.

    He is to approve or disapproved based on the law.

    File for Ore Tenus soonest.

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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    That does not sound like a reasonable cause for denial. The Sheriff saying that he is "reluctant" should not imply that he does not.

    Traffic offenses and non-violent misdemeanors, regardless of the volume, should not (are not?) lawful extent to deny.
    Yes, I beleive that is true. IIRC it is SHALL ISSUE with certain restrictions for denial. Misdemeanors are not one of them unless you have had more than a certain number in the last three or five years. You'll have to look it up in 18.2-308. I'm quite sure they cannot deny you based on what you have told us.

    DO NOTunderestimate the desire of some judges to turn you down for anything they can, even if the law does NOT allow them to. The judge is hoping you DON'T KNOW THE LAW.



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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Here you go, 18.2-308 E7, this is a list of people who are to be denied, one of the conditions is:

    7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.


    Since your infractions were more than five years ago they CANNOT deny you. But you're going to have to fight them.Give them a black eye for me :^). I'm not sure if you can go directly to the judge or not or just bring this up with the Sheriff, he might be able to get it corrected for you. Quote this section to him.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Here you go, 18.2-308 E7, this is a list of people who are to be denied, one of the conditions is:

    7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.

    Since your infractions were more than five years ago they CANNOT deny you. But you're going to have to fight them.Give them a black eye for me :^). I'm not sure if you can go directly to the judge or not or just bring this up with the Sheriff, he might be able to get it corrected for you. Quote this section to him.
    JMHO, but it is the sheriff who is up to no good here. He needs to be "outed" and corrected by the appropriate authorities. He appears to be on a power kick, and that has no place in public service.

    TFred


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    1000ydshooter wrote:
    Thanks guys thats a start let me see how my sit down with the sheriff goes then work from there.
    I'm not sure this is a good idea - why don;t you star by goin gto the courthosue and getting a compelte copy of your CHP file, letter and all.

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    That does not sound like a reasonable cause for denial. The Sheriff saying that he is "reluctant" should not imply that he does not.

    Traffic offenses and non-violent misdemeanors, regardless of the volume, should not (are not?) lawful extent to deny.
    The problem here stems from subdivsion E13 of Code § 18.2-308:

    An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
    Another key point in that subsection is that the sworn statement must be based upon "personal knowledge" of the individual or of the specific acts. I take that to mean that the official or competent person can not base his statement merely on information obtained from the background check. He'd have had to be personally involved in the crime (as perpetrator or victim), investigation, arrest, or conviction.

    I could be mis-interpreting that subsection, though...

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    Repeater wrote:
    the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
    If the statement does not cvomply with the above, the letter should not be relevant to the judges decision - I recommend you get a lawyer from your area to represent you at ore tenus and consider paying for a stenogrpgher to make a record of the hearing for possible appeal purposes

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    virginiatuck wrote:
    Repeater wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    That does not sound like a reasonable cause for denial. The Sheriff saying that he is "reluctant" should not imply that he does not.

    Traffic offenses and non-violent misdemeanors, regardless of the volume, should not (are not?) lawful extent to deny.
    The problem here stems from subdivsion E13 of Code § 18.2-308:

    An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
    Another key point in that subsection is that the sworn statement must be based upon "personal knowledge" of the individual or of the specific acts. I take that to mean that the official or competent person can not base his statement merely on information obtained from the background check. He'd have had to be personally involved in the crime (as perpetrator or victim), investigation, arrest, or conviction.

    I could be mis-interpreting that subsection, though...
    It is supposed to exclude Hearsay testimony. At least, that's the theory.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Here you go, 18.2-308 E7, this is a list of people who are to be denied, one of the conditions is:

    7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.


    Since your infractions were more than five years ago they CANNOT deny you. But you're going to have to fight them.Give them a black eye for me :^). I'm not sure if you can go directly to the judge or not or just bring this up with the Sheriff, he might be able to get it corrected for you. Quote this section to him.
    Unless those traffic stops were Reckless Driving/Reckless Endangerment then he might have a problem due to the fact those are both misdemeanors.

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    This is a BIG deal and should catch the eye of more senior members. Get your appeal ready!

    I would also write a personal letter to the Sherrif, AG, and governor (the other two might be a waste of time though)

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    eddyys wrote:
    Neplusultra wrote:
    Here you go, 18.2-308 E7, this is a list of people who are to be denied, one of the conditions is:

    7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.


    Since your infractions were more than five years ago they CANNOT deny you. But you're going to have to fight them.Give them a black eye for me :^). I'm not sure if you can go directly to the judge or not or just bring this up with the Sheriff, he might be able to get it corrected for you. Quote this section to him.
    Unless those traffic stops were Reckless Driving/Reckless Endangerment then he might have a problem due to the fact those are both misdemeanors.
    Possibly, but he did say the infractions were about 10 years ago and the law states they can only consider misdemeanors going back 5 years prior to the date of the application. PS, actually I just reread his original post and he didn't state when the traffic tickets occured.....

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    aquinob1 wrote:
    This is a BIG deal and should catch the eye of more senior members. Get your appeal ready!

    I would also write a personal letter to the Sherrif, AG, and governor (the other two might be a waste of time though)
    Ken Cuccinelli - The incoming Attorney General is very pro and one of the good guys. We look for very good things from him.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 1000ydshooter's Avatar
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    The last traffic ticket was 2005 may to be exact.i got a ticket for going 10 over the day before i left for Iraq.ive only had 3 speeding tickets in almost 20 yrs.the last legal charge i had was in 2002.that was for a bounced check.still havent learned to balance my checkbook.if it werent for my wife id be screwed.
    FREEDOM ISNT FREE. BUT THE UNITED STATES MARINES ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY YOUR SHARE!!

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