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Thread: Illegal to OC on Everett Mall Premises?

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    I was at the Everett Mall recently and went in without my coat on and openly carrying (I always open carry but generally have my coat covering it). I was in Borders minding my own business browsing the Fantasy/Science Fiction section (I'm a nerd) when 3 security guards and the head of mall security showed up to ask me what I was doing and asked to see my CPL, I complied and they asked me if I could leave the mall premises as they didn't allow the carry of firearms, I protested and queried about local and federal firearm laws, they said as the mall was private property they were free to ask anyone to leave who was violating their firearm carry rules and if I refused to leave I would be arrested for trespassing. They WERE kind enough to allow me to finish picking out my books and leave of my own accord however.

    Was I in the wrong here? My roommate says Yes, I'm not certain. I understand the tension because of the mall shootings down at Southcenter but if anything like that happened and I was unable to defend myself or my family because my firearm was locked in my car I would be furious.

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    If you were carrying openly, you do not have to display a CPL, nor are you required to have a CPL for open carry. Also the CPL does not require you to conceal, but gives you the option of concealing. As it is private property, they do have the right to ask you to leave. if you refuse, they cannot arrest you but will have the police escort you out and trespass you. The police might arrest you though.

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    They were completely within their rights to ask you to leave the mall. It is private property, they make the rules.

    Since you're not breaking any LAWS you can't be arrested for simply carrying a gun. However, if you are asked to leave for breaking a rule, if you don't comply, then you are trespassing.
    So, do like I do. OC where its okay to do so and CC where its not. If you cover it up well enough who's gonna know. They cannot search you because they think you have a gun.
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    Most every mall that I know of here in Washington has rules against weapons. I however refuse to enter a mall without being armed so for those times I will CC.

    When I OC I leave my CPL in the truck. When I CC I have it on my person.

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    I just switch holsters (to an IWB)or put a coat over my pistol when I enter the Everett Mall.

    Yes, they can ask you to leave and if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest. Key word attempt.

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    kito109654 wrote:
    if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest.
    Cite please... I am under the impression that WA state only allows a citizens arrest in they have witnessed or are witnessing a felony?? There are other exceptions as well, like aiding LEO's at LEO's request...

    Please inform me how a SG can place me under arrest for refusing to vacate the property?
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    massivedesign wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest.
    Cite please... I am under the impression that WA state only allows a citizens arrest in they have witnessed or are witnessing a felony?? There are other exceptions as well, like aiding LEO's at LEO's request...

    Please inform me how a SG can place me under arrest for refusing to vacate the property?
    They cannot arrest but they can lawfully detain you.

    9a.16.020 gives defenses on the use of force.

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Please excuse my lack of using correct law jargon. Detain.

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    joeroket wrote:
    massivedesign wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest.
    Cite please... I am under the impression that WA state only allows a citizens arrest in they have witnessed or are witnessing a felony?? There are other exceptions as well, like aiding LEO's at LEO's request...

    Please inform me how a SG can place me under arrest for refusing to vacate the property?
    They cannot arrest but they can lawfully detain you.

    9a.16.020 gives defenses on the use of force.

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
    Ha ha ha ha ha! Really? If you refuse to leave they can detain you in order to prevent you from leaving? Anyone else see the irony?

    Also, read the last clause of the law. "The premises ... did not appear... to be open to members of the public". They can't detain you in the mall, they can only call the police.

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    heresolong wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    massivedesign wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest.
    Cite please... I am under the impression that WA state only allows a citizens arrest in they have witnessed or are witnessing a felony?? There are other exceptions as well, like aiding LEO's at LEO's request...

    Please inform me how a SG can place me under arrest for refusing to vacate the property?
    They cannot arrest but they can lawfully detain you.

    9a.16.020 gives defenses on the use of force.

    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
    Ha ha ha ha ha! Really? If you refuse to leave they can detain you in order to prevent you from leaving? Anyone else see the irony?

    Also, read the last clause of the law. "The premises ... did not appear... to be open to members of the public". They can't detain you in the mall, they can only call the police.
    No one claimed it made sense.

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    massivedesign wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest.
    Cite please... I am under the impression that WA state only allows a citizens arrest in they have witnessed or are witnessing a felony?? There are other exceptions as well, like aiding LEO's at LEO's request...

    Please inform me how a SG can place me under arrest for refusing to vacate the property?
    In Washington, private security makes citizen arrests all the time for shop lifting. Here is a link about citizen arrest powers in Washington state with the following quote:

    every citizen has the right to arrest any person [[Orig. Op. Page 4]] whom he actually observes in the act of committing a misdemeanor. . . ."
    Also, I find it interesting that several members here cheered and congratulated another member who made a stop of another citizen suspected of DUI.

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Op...e&id=10234

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    I have been OC ing at the Everett Mall for 2 years now.
    I go in at Sears and pay my telephone bill. Just 2 days ago a young lady at T mobile ask if I was police? I said no just a regular guy. We talked about gun laws a little. She was surprised about OC and she said she will tell her boy friend who has a CPL. You know its all about education. It works very well.

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    erps wrote:
    massivedesign wrote:In Washington, private security makes citizen arrests all the time for shop lifting. Here is a link about citizen arrest powers in Washington state with the following quote:

    every citizen has the right to arrest any person [[Orig. Op. Page 4]] whom he actually observes in the act of committing a misdemeanor. . . ."
    Also, I find it interesting that several members here cheered and congratulated another member who made a stop of another citizen suspected of DUI.

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Op...e&id=10234
    Erps, That AG opinion letter was written in the early 1900's. The State vs. Jones (1992) solidified that opinion, but in the case of shoplifting.. Or petty theft.

    Per State vs. Gonzales (1979) & State vs. Miller (1985) helped define further with 2 requirements for a misdemeanor citizens arrest. 1) Was committed in the citizen's presence & 2) constituted a breach of peace.

    Just some further clarification.. Not ALL misdemeanors are subject to citizen arrest.


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    erps wrote:
    massivedesign wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest.
    Cite please... I am under the impression that WA state only allows a citizens arrest in they have witnessed or are witnessing a felony?? There are other exceptions as well, like aiding LEO's at LEO's request...

    Please inform me how a SG can place me under arrest for refusing to vacate the property?
    In Washington, private security makes citizen arrests all the time for shop lifting. Here is a link about citizen arrest powers in Washington state with the following quote:

    every citizen has the right to arrest any person [[Orig. Op. Page 4]] whom he actually observes in the act of committing a misdemeanor. . . ."
    Also, I find it interesting that several members here cheered and congratulated another member who made a stop of another citizen suspected of DUI.

    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Op...e&id=10234
    Ah, the misdemeanor part is new to me though. Thanks for pointing out the rampant hipocrisy that many members show.

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    phone guy wrote:
    I have been OC ing at the Everett Mall for 2 years now.
    I go in at Sears and pay my telephone bill. Just 2 days ago a young lady at T mobile ask if I was police? I said no just a regular guy. We talked about gun laws a little. She was surprised about OC and she said she will tell her boy friend who has a CPL. You know its all about education. It works very well.
    Perhaps the people at Borders find firearms more alarming than employees in the rest of the mall. All in all the encounter wasn't upsetting, the head of security came down himself instead of sending a peon and was very polite and understanding, indicated that he was definitely in favor of the second amendment but wasn't able to change policy. All he asked was that if I couldn't CC that I leave it locked in the trunk of my car so as not to upset or alarm people going about their shopping. Their reasoning wasn't that they were worried about ME causing an incident, it's that they were worried about someone else causing a scene/panic and that leading to an escalating situation that they just didn't want to deal with.

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    Erps, That AG opinion letter was written in the early 1900's. The State vs. Jones (1992) solidified that opinion, but in the case of shoplifting.. Or petty theft. Per State vs. Gonzales (1979) & State vs. Miller (1985) helped define further with 2 requirements for a misdemeanor citizens arrest. 1) Was committed in the citizen's presence & 2) constituted a breach of peace. Just some further clarification.. Not ALL misdemeanors are subject to citizen arrest.
    Thanks. I completely missed that. I read an Arizona case just the other day that talked about misdemeanors involving a breach of the peace and then completely missed the date on the above reference.

    Trespass would be a misdemeanor involving a breach of the peace though, wouldn't it?


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    erps wrote:
    Trespass would be a misdemeanor involving a breach of the peace though, wouldn't it?
    Depends on how one would define "breach of the peace".

    Per Princeton at: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl...%20the%20peace

    It defines it as: (any act of molesting, interrupting, hindering, agitating, or arousing from a state of repose or otherwise depriving inhabitants of the peace and quiet to which they are entitled)

    So, as long as you are not making a public scene, stay calm and collected, you should be fine. Start verbally mouthing off, then yes, you could be breaching the peace.. IMO

    But then there is the grey area of escalation.. what if the SG (in this case) starts yelling first, then is HE breeching the peace?? Since breeching the peace is closely mated with disorderly conduct, a potential misdemeanor... Would you then have the right to place the SG under citizen's arrest?? Hmmmm...

    Just food for thought lol..
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    kito109654 wrote:
    I just switch holsters (to an IWB)or put a coat over my pistol when I enter the Everett Mall.

    Yes, they can ask you to leave and if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest. Key word attempt.
    My main holster is a IWB holster, When I want to OC I just untuck it and leave it on my belt, functions pretty good as a OWB holster.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    amzbrady wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    I just switch holsters (to an IWB)or put a coat over my pistol when I enter the Everett Mall.

    Yes, they can ask you to leave and if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest. Key word attempt.
    My main holster is a IWB holster, When I want to OC I just untuck it and leave it on my belt, functions pretty good as a OWB holster.
    What holster? I do the same but there is no holster that will do both equally well. Most IWB don't have good enough retention for me to be comfortable OCing them.



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    kito109654 wrote:
    amzbrady wrote:
    kito109654 wrote:
    I just switch holsters (to an IWB)or put a coat over my pistol when I enter the Everett Mall.

    Yes, they can ask you to leave and if you refuse they could legally attempt to perform a citizens arrest. Key word attempt.
    My main holster is a IWB holster, When I want to OC I just untuck it and leave it on my belt, functions pretty good as a OWB holster.
    What holster? I do the same but there is no holster that will do both equally well. Most IWB don't have good enough retention for me to be comfortable OCing them.

    I have a bladetech, My biggest beef is they dont make one for the taurus pt111Millineum pro, so it flips my safety off, I dont carry chambered because of this. I't holds pretty good, I have it down pretty tight, because I tow and respond to WSP tow calls, wouldnt be good to be laying under a car hooking up and have it go sliding across the highway, which my cell phone has done a few times.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    What if you were to enter from the Borders entrance via parking lot and not enter the MALL, are you on Borders property? Evenif they lease the space form the Mall owners, are you not sill on borders property? So if no borders employees called security for your removal could you tell security to pack sand?
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    jbone wrote:
    What if you were to enter from the Borders entrance via parking lot and not enter the MALL, are you on Borders property? Evenif they lease the space form the Mall owners, are you not sill on borders property? So if no borders employees called security for your removal could you tell security to pack sand?
    Doesn't work that way in most malls, unless the property is owned and deliniated by a specific store (most Sears OWN their building..as an example). The Malls have pretty stringent CC&R's that allow cross-use and very little ownership in specific stores. In those CC&R's there are usually sections that state the security procedures and rules that the stores must abide by in order to lease. They will also want to review the stores security procedures and make sure they are in line with theirs..

    Malls are massive gustapo's... Whenever I send out a proposal to design a TI in a mall I charge a lot more knowing all the extra hoops I will have to go through just to get design approval... Westfield is the worst!
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    erps wrote:
    In Washington, private security makes citizen arrests all the time for shop lifting. Here is a link about citizen arrest powers in Washington state with the following quote:

    every citizen has the right to arrest any person [[Orig. Op. Page 4]] whom he actually observes in the act of committing a misdemeanor. . . .
    Carrying a firearm isn't a misdemeanor, and you haven't committed a trespass misdemeanor unless you refuse to leave after being asked. Ergo, they can't arrest you.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    phone guy wrote:
    I have been OC ing at the Everett Mall for 2 years now.
    I go in at Sears and pay my telephone bill. Just 2 days ago a young lady at T mobile ask if I was police? I said no just a regular guy. We talked about gun laws a little. She was surprised about OC and she said she will tell her boy friend who has a CPL. You know its all about education. It works very well.
    The reason you haven't been asked to leave is that one of the "Paul Blart" types hasn't seen you or been called by the store.

    I would expect to be hassled at Borders. Just take into consideration the types that usually work there. Birkenstocks (usually with socks), Liberal Arts Degrees (and usually working on that elusive PHD), voted for Gregoire, insist on Soy in their Latte', and most of all believe that guns should be removed from the planet so we can all live in perfect harmony.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    heresolong wrote:
    erps wrote:
    Carrying a firearm isn't a misdemeanor, and you haven't committed a trespass misdemeanor unless you refuse to leave after being asked. Ergo, they can't arrest you.
    and that's what the security guards warned:

    I protested and queried about local and federal firearm laws, they said as the mall was private property they were free to ask anyone to leave who was violating their firearm carry rules and if I refused to leave I would be arrested for trespassing.

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