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Accuracy and Movement

CarryOpen

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Hi - I'm not really experienced at shooting people. I do know a bunch of guys who've been in wars, but I haven't really asked them about this. Massad Ayoob has done a whole lot of asking though, I thought you might be interested in some of what he had to say:

Among the winners a significant number, uh, a number so great they can't be ignored will recall having aimed the weapon and referenced the sights.
[Jim Cirillo] recalled in his first gun fight seeing the front sights so intensly that he could recall every groove and striation on the front sight. Cirillo fired three shots, three hits and three neutralizations in three seconds

[LAPD officers who trained privately]were winning a much higher percentage of gunfights than the officers trained in ordinary techniques. In my opinion the Weaver vs. Isocoles and things like that had little to do with it. Virtually all of those men said they had become programmed - 'when that gun comes up I will focus on the front sight, I will put the bullet where it has to go.'

If I can give you any bit of advice, based on all of the studies, all of the survivors I have debriefed that would garauntee putting the bullet in the right place, it would be focus on the front sight.

Of the ones who have lost, a large number will describe "Point gun, pull trigger. 'Point gun, pull trigger.'

Ayoob is a nationally recognized author, director of the Leathal Force Institute, police captain and expert witness.
 

CarryOpen

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I'd also like to summarize a bit of wisdom that Clint Smith puts out ther a lot:

There's a lawyer attached to every bullet that comes out of your gun. You better know where it's going.

Clint Smith did two infantry tours in Vietnam, I'm guessing he might know something about gun fights too.
 

Dangerous

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Until you have the bullets flying around you everythingis supposition. I was never in a direct shoot out but I've beenso close my butt's been puckered several times. Eachperson brings skills or lack of skills which are not manifest until the shit is in the fan.

I'll take experience over well thought out techniques never tested in combat situations. Words are words, deeds show results.

I had a friend who won thestate policechampionship shootsseveral times, then one dayhe got into an actual shoot out, he emptied his weapon 3 times and didn't hit anything of significance.The rangeof the encounter was about 30ft.

He never competed again, but he went around to S.O.'s and P.D.'s giving talks about this and the need of mental control, weapon control, mere practice can create a false since of confidence, and much much more.

The weight factor enters the picture more that you realize, inertia is energy directed in a straight line. Centrifugal for enters when a spinning motion is introduced. One must pull inward to counter thepulling affect ofturning. The further out your hand is from the center of your person the more energy the more ithas to be countered. The further your hand is from the center of your person the further radius turn. Go see the combat movies available. I too know when an officer is in a shooting(combat) position and his hand is extended the normal motion is to turn left of right with that extension form. It's prior to the actual encounter when practicedefficient movement and techniques will serve best.

That is my practical experience. I'm still alive

I have only brushed a small picture of this topic.
 

CarryOpen

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You've survived never been in a shootout - impressive feat compared to those who have been in gunfights and disagree with you.
 

Task Force 16

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Dangerous wrote:
Until you have the bullets flying around you everythingis supposition. I was never in a direct shoot out but I've beenso close my butt's been puckered several times. Eachperson brings skills or lack of skills which are not manifest until the @#$% is in the fan.

I'll take experience over well thought out techniques never tested in combat situations. Words are words, deeds show results.

I had a friend who won thestate policechampionship shootsseveral times, then one dayhe got into an actual shoot out, he emptied his weapon 3 times and didn't hit anything of significance.The rangeof the encounter was about 30ft.

He never competed again, but he went around to S.O.'s and P.D.'s giving talks about this and the need of mental control, weapon control, mere practice can create a false since of confidence, and much much more.

The weight factor enters the picture more that you realize, inertia is energy directed in a straight line. Centrifugal for enters when a spinning motion is introduced. One must pull inward to counter thepulling affect ofturning. The further out your hand is from the center of your person the more energy the more ithas to be countered. The further your hand is from the center of your person the further radius turn. Go see the combat movies available. I too know when an officer is in a shooting(combat) position and his hand is extended the normal motion is to turn left of right with that extension form. It's prior to the actual encounter when practicedefficient movement and techniques will serve best.

That is my practical experience. I'm still alive

I have only brushed a small picture of this topic.

NO one is going spin left or right fast enough for centrifugal force to be an issue. Now, if some one has a weapon that weighs5 pounds of more, that might slow their tracking ability a bit. But that will only be due to the resistance against the force exerted to swing the weapon side to side, when held at arms length. Most handguns weigh less than 2 pounds

The example you give of the LEO that couldn't hit anything during a real shoot out suggest that he forgot every bit of his training when a target shot back at him. Could that happen to anyone? Sure it could. Fearcan have an awesome effect on a person.Mental discipline is a large part of being able to concur the fear of being shot or killed ones self,so that one candraw on practiced shooting skills during a live firefight.

None of us are going to know how well we will preform under such pressure, until it happens. Some will do better than others. Some of us may even be surprised at how well or badly we do.

You like to draw on experience, so do I. My experience. Ordinarily, I have to take my time when doing normal everyday work, or else I'll screw things up and have to re-do the mistakes. I always mess up when I get in a hurry. But, let an emergency unfold and for some reason I've been able to think and act quickly in response, without fouling things up. I can't explain this, and it irritates the crap out of me that I can't perform as well WITHOUT the pressure. Will I do as well in a firefight? I don't know. If past experience is any indicater, I should. But I don't really want to find out. I might be horribly dissappointed.

What you are trying to do here, in my opnion, is insert things into this type of scenario to simply make something that is rather simple very complicated. I don't know why people insist on doing this. If any of us find ourselves in a shoot out with a BG, all we should be concerning ourselves with is acquiring the target, pulling the trigger and making that target fall down. It's as simple as that. No need in worrying about centrifgal forces and milliseconds or anything else.
 
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Bikenut

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Dangerous wrote:
-snip-

The weight factor enters the picture more that you realize, inertia is energy directed in a straight line. Centrifugal for enters when a spinning motion is introduced. One must pull inward to counter thepulling affect ofturning. The further out your hand is from the center of your person the more energy the more ithas to be countered. The further your hand is from the center of your person the further radius turn. Go see the combat movies available. I too know when an officer is in a shooting(combat) position and his hand is extended the normal motion is to turn left of right with that extension form. It's prior to the actual encounter when practicedefficient movement and techniques will serve best.

That is my practical experience. I'm still alive

I have only brushed a small picture of this topic.
I still maintain that worrying about the milliseconds consumed due to inertial effects of a handgun while tracking a bad guy's movements is an exercise in wasted effort.

Those milliseconds pale in comparison to getting the gun out of the holster in a timely manner...... and here I'll suggest for your consideration that an openly carried gun has the ability to be drawn faster than the concealed carry gun hiding under clothing. Not to mention that clothing can get in the way causing a time losing "fumble" during a draw.... or, depending on mode of concealed carry, need one hand to clear clothing and one hand to draw (that is hoping both hands are free!) while open carry requires only one hand.

I'm not saying that the inertial effects of a handgun's weight do not exist......... I'm saying that the milliseconds consumed by those effects are simply not worth taking the time to be concerned about.

Is it really practical to be concerned whether the difference in inertial effect time of gun A with a 4 inch barrel is (or isn't) .00000001 of a millisecond slower than gun B with a 3 inch barrel?
 
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