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Thread: Must Inform? (by state)

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    There was teh suggestion made on another thread that someone needed to compile a table or chart that outlined the "must notify" policies fo reach state. I know this is more about CC than OC, but I think it's important information from which many of us may benefit.

    I spent the last couple days plowing through the State Laws section over at www.usacarry.com, and NRA-ILA, and I've compiled a data set in table format. Ultimately I want to make a "map" in the style of the OCDO maps that color-codes each state in accordance with their "must inform" policies. But the data on USACARRY and NRA-ILA is incomplete in a few places, and some of the states have rather vague laws, so I wanted to post my "raw data" for review here first, so you folks who live in the states that have incomplete data could maybe lend me a hand.

    If I don't get any feedback in the next few days, I'm going to start calling State AG's to get the real scoop...

    PLEASE don't post your opinions, rants, or off-topic info here. This is a research project, not just a random thread, and I don't want to have to spend hours plowing through random posts to get the data that I really need to make this project work.

    Please, help make this project happen if you have reliable info on any of the states in question. This project will benefit us ALL, but it will be a lot easier for me if I had some "helping hands".

    Thanks!

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Here is my "raw data". Please comment, correct, or amend it as appropriate.

    Must Inform LEO if Carrying Concealed

    STATE NO YES OTHER ID
    Alabama x NO
    Alaska X NO
    Arizona X NO
    Arkansas X YES
    California DEPENDS ON COUNTY
    Colorado X NO
    Connecticut X NO
    Delaware X NO
    Florida X NO
    Georgia X NO
    Hawaii NON-ISSUE STATE IN PRACTICE
    Idaho X NO
    Illinois NON-ISSUE STATE
    Indiana X NO
    Iowa X NO
    Kansas UPON REQUEST YES
    Kentucky X NO
    Louisiana x NO
    Maine UPON REQUEST NO
    Maryland UPON REQUEST YES
    Massachusetts UPON REQUEST NO
    Michigan X NO
    Minnesota UPON REQUEST NO
    Mississippi UPON REQUEST YES
    Missouri X NO
    Montana X NO
    Nebraska UPON REQUEST YES
    Nevada UPON REQUEST YES
    New Hampshire X NO
    New Jersey UNKNOWN
    New Mexico UPON REQUEST NO
    New York UPON REQUEST YES
    North Carolina X YES

    North Dakota UPON REQUEST NO
    Ohio X YES
    Oklahoma X NO
    Oregon X NO
    Pennsylvania X NO
    Rhode Island X NO
    South Carolina UPON REQUEST NO
    South Dakota X NO
    Tennessee UPON REQUEST NO
    Texas UPON REQUEST YES
    Utah X NO
    Vermont X NO
    Virginia UPON REQUEST YES
    Washington UPON REQUEST NO
    Washington D. C. NON-ISSUE STATE IN PRACTICE
    West Virginia UPON REQUEST YES
    Wisconsin NON-ISSUE STATE
    Wyoming X NO





    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    no need to re-do this post, TFred posted the gist of it while I was typing here.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It's difficult to lump 50 laws into one bucket called "Must Inform".

    You have Virginia listed as "Upon Request", but that may not really be the case.

    I interpret "Must Inform" to mean that upon my initial encounter with a LEO, I am required by law to voluntarily inform them that I am carrying a concealed weapon. To me this means before they have a chance to ask me if I am.

    That is not the case in Virginia. There is no requirement to inform a LEO that you are carrying a concealed weapon at all in Virginia. The Concealed Handgun Permit law does say that if you are carrying a concealed weapon, and if the LEO asks you, then you are required to display your permit and a photo ID. But as you may see there, it's a bit of a tricky situation, since there is no requirement to admit that you are actually carrying, and if your handgun is properly concealed, the LEO has no basis upon which to demand that you display your permit. Now in Virginia, the LEO is likely to already know you have a CHP, so it's probably not a big deal to hand it over. The bigger question is about the concealed handgun itself.

    There is a current thread in this same forum about this very situation that happened in Roanoke, Virginia.

    It seems to me that in order for this data to make any sense, you will also need to define what "Must Inform" means for each state. I bet there are at least a dozen different meanings in 50 state laws.

    Just some thoughts.

    TFred


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    Although I am no longer a resident of NYS, I held a permit when I lived there. NYS does not require you to inform.

    As a side note, all states that do not require may ask you and if asked, you must answer.

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  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    It's difficult to lump 50 laws into one bucket called "Must Inform".

    You have Virginia listed as "Upon Request", but that may not really be the case.

    I interpret "Must Inform" to mean that upon my initial encounter with a LEO, I am required by law to voluntarily inform them that I am carrying a concealed weapon. To me this means before they have a chance to ask me if I am.

    That is not the case in Virginia. There is no requirement to inform a LEO that you are carrying a concealed weapon at all in Virginia. The Concealed Handgun Permit law does say that if you are carrying a concealed weapon, and if the LEO asks you, then you are required to display your permit and a photo ID. But as you may see there, it's a bit of a tricky situation, since there is no requirement to admit that you are actually carrying, and if your handgun is properly concealed, the LEO has no basis upon which to demand that you display your permit. Now in Virginia, the LEO is likely to already know you have a CHP, so it's probably not a big deal to hand it over. The bigger question is about the concealed handgun itself.

    There is a current thread in this same forum about this very situation that happened in Roanoke, Virginia.

    It seems to me that in order for this data to make any sense, you will also need to define what "Must Inform" means for each state. I bet there are at least a dozen different meanings in 50 state laws.

    Just some thoughts.

    TFred
    TFred,

    When I put the "upon request" tag on VA, it was because of what you said. The entire subsection regarding your obligtions in an LEO encounter goes like this:
    Virginia Code § 18.2-308

    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
    So I guess TECHNICALLY you are correct. There is no stipulation in VA Code to inform that you are actually carrying a gun or its location. But I think simply handing over a permit when asked if you are carrying and NOT admitting to having the gun on you is a little discourteous, and is leaning toward the annoyingly legalistic.

    If you HAVE a permit, but ARE NOT carrying, then you don't have to produce a permit (or say anything) if asked.

    Such responses in EITHER situation, I think would NOT put you in the good graces of an LEO, and are edging VERY close to being perceived as non-cooperation. IANAL, but then again, I personally dont want to be a test case. If I were asked by a VA LEO if I was carrying, and WAS carrying, I'd produce the ID and Permit and tell him "yes". If I wasn't carrying, I'd give him my DL (but no CHP) and say "no". But that's just me. But I understand your point, and I see that the Code in VA doesn't say that you are required to admit to carrying when you are. Point taken...

    Many states have a "must produce Permit upon request" statute, but only a few ALSO say you "must inform that you ARE carrying when asked"...

    Perhaps this data set IS too complicated to try and collate into any sort of meaningful and easy-to-understand map, without COPIOUS footnotes and links pages.

    Well, it SEEMED like a good idea...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Perhaps instead of a map, a table with "letter codes" is more practical.

    Must inform:
    A = no (as an absolute "no", I think this condition doesn't exist ANYWHERE)
    B = must provide permit at initial contact
    B* =must also provide valid photo ID
    C = must provide permit upon request
    C* =must also provide valid photo ID
    D = must provide permit and inform of carry at initial contact
    D* =must also provide valid photo ID
    E = must provide permit and inform of carry upon request
    E* =must also provide valid photo ID


    This gives much more specific and accurate information, and would be easy to put into table format, but it makes it nearly impossible to make a map, unless I make up 8 TOTALLY different colors filled with patterns or something, to make it easy to read.

    Or maybe a set of 8 maps, one for each condition, with only the applicable states colored in for each map.

    I HATE the convoluted complexity of our legal system...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    p85 wrote:
    Although I am no longer a resident of NYS, I held a permit when I lived there. NYS does not require you to inform.

    As a side note, all states that do not require may ask you and if asked, you must answer.
    Please everybody, make it easier for Dreamer.

    Give him only facts w/cites on this.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    TFred,

    When I put the "upon request" tag on VA, it was because of what you said. The entire subsection regarding your obligtions in an LEO encounter goes like this:
    Virginia Code § 18.2-308

    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
    So I guess TECHNICALLY you are correct. There is no stipulation in VA Code to inform that you are actually carrying a gun or its location. But I think simply handing over a permit when asked if you are carrying and NOT admitting to having the gun on you is a little discourteous, and is leaning toward the annoyingly legalistic.

    If you HAVE a permit, but ARE NOT carrying, then you don't have to produce a permit (or say anything) if asked.

    Such responses in EITHER situation, I think would NOT put you in the good graces of an LEO, and are edging VERY close to being perceived as non-cooperation. IANAL, but then again, I personally dont want to be a test case. If I were asked by a VA LEO if I was carrying, and WAS carrying, I'd produce the ID and Permit and tell him "yes". If I wasn't carrying, I'd give him my DL (but no CHP) and say "no". But that's just me. But I understand your point, and I see that the Code in VA doesn't say that you are required to admit to carrying when you are. Point taken...

    Many states have a "must produce Permit upon request" statute, but only a few ALSO say you "must inform that you ARE carrying when asked"...

    Perhaps this data set IS too complicated to try and collate into any sort of meaningful and easy-to-understand map, without COPIOUS footnotes and links pages.

    Well, it SEEMED like a good idea...
    Please don't let my post discourage you, I just wouldn't want you to spend a lot of time and end up with something that wasn't as helpful as you may have envisioned. I think something useful can be assembled, but as you say, it may be a little more complex than first thought. What worthwhile project isn't?

    I think your summary makes sense. For the guy in the Roanoke case, I think it is going to come down to what are the actual legal requirements during an encouter with a LEO. I don't believe that it will turn out that one is required to provide any information to a LEO beyond name and address. At least that is what is batted around on the Virginia board over and over. And yes you are certainly correct that such a tactic will likely infuriate a LEO. But that doesn't mean they are then allowed to make up their own laws.

    Most of us on the Virginia forum believe 18.2-308 to be a generally faulty law, and this is one of those cases.

    If you consult the map page on the top level OCDO site, you will see there are several maps which represent situations comprising several different possible statuses, maybe you could work something out with the site owners to add a new map to their page.

    TFred

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    Perhaps instead of a map, a table with "letter codes" is more practical.

    Must inform:
    A = no (as an absolute "no", I think this condition doesn't exist ANYWHERE)
    B = must provide permit at initial contact
    B* =must also provide valid photo ID
    C = must provide permit upon request
    C* =must also provide valid photo ID
    D = must provide permit and inform of carry at initial contact
    D* =must also provide valid photo ID
    E = must provide permit and inform of carry upon request
    E* =must also provide valid photo ID


    This gives much more specific and accurate information, and would be easy to put into table format, but it makes it nearly impossible to make a map, unless I make up 8 TOTALLY different colors filled with patterns or something, to make it easy to read.

    Or maybe a set of 8 maps, one for each condition, with only the applicable states colored in for each map.

    I HATE the convoluted complexity of our legal system...
    Using a U.S. map to display the information has its merits. For one thing, all of the information would fit in a smaller space than a table while retaining its readability. The map could just have the letter code in the state. Those states too small for a letter could be enumerated in a small table to the side of the map similar to handgunlaw.us maps.

    On the other hand, a table could have additional columns for important information. Like a column for reference to the actual code title. The information could be made available in multiple forms. In fact, using computers you could have the data in a simple database and generate the maps, tables, etc... from the database; you'd only have one place to update the data as it may change. The individual state pages on OCDO would probably be a good place for this information, too. Those are already in sort of a table format. Example: Virginia.

    As for Virginia, the points you made are logical. I want to argue it, but any way I run a scenario in my mind the end result of the law is that if you're carrying a concealed handgun and the officer wants to know, he's going to find out. You might call it "no duty-to-inform (duty-to-inform in practice)" in the same way people say "may-issue (no-issue in practice)" After all, it's technically a "duty-to-prove-that-you-have-permission".

    I think we first need to define what "duty to inform" is. That way the final product, the map or table, is more accurate and clear to the reader. I think the premise of "duty to inform" is that, through no action or request of the officer other than to detain (or pull-over, stop, or whatever you want to call it) you, you are immediately obligated to communicate to the officer that you possess a firearm.

    By that definition, Virginia does not have a duty-to-inform law. And that settles any arguments anyone would try to bring up about it. What do you think? How would you define "duty to inform?"

    Example data:
    comma separated values (csv):
    State,Duty-to-Inform,Caveats,Reference
    Vermont,No,None,N/A
    Virginia,No,Must display permit and ID upon request,§ 18.2-308(H)

    One last thing:
    Are there any states where a duty-to-inform law does not distinguish between open or concealed carry? There are circumstances in OC states where a lawful OC may not be plainly visible to an officer. In those cases, if any, duty to inform would apply to OC or CC.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    TFred,

    Yes, I may just develop a data set in tabular form, and then forward that to the website owner and ask if he would be interested in translating that to his map format.

    I looked at the code for his map pages, and although I've been doing website design for almost 10 years, I can't really make sense of it, or else I'd just "borrow" the code, and do the formatting myself, and then send the site owner THOSE files with a request to post it.

    But this is such a complex data set that I think it's going to be better to do it as a series of 4 maps (each map for each procedure, to include "Photo ID required/not required").

    As for compiling hyperlinked pages with the specific statutes for each state, THAT is about a week's worth of work to research and compile from all the varied sources. I may do that, but I think some sort of table or simplified map might be a good place to start...

    I should have thought of this a month ago, when I had all that free time over the Holiday Break from school. I'm starting my next semester next week, and maybe right now isn't the wisest time to jump into a hugely complex project like this on top of my first "official" semester as a full-time Grad student...:shock:

    I'm not going to bail on this project, or give up, but the progress looks like it will be MUCH slower than I originally envisioned.


    And to make things even MORE complicated, i just realized that I probably shoudl put an "OC Legal?" column on the end of that table, to make the whole thing relevant to this forum...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    I also just realized that, if you were to use a narrower definition for "duty to inform", such as the one I stated above, then you would have fewer categories of states. You'd have yes, no, and no with caveats. Three colors for a map. For details, you click the state and find the "Duty to inform" row in the table for caveats and/or references.



  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    So it's not really a general "duty to inform", this map would be more of a "duty to inform on initial contact"...

    Yeah, THAT stipulation makes it a LOT simpler up front for the map, and makes having a table of "caveats" or individual pages for each state a LOT easier.

    Good idea. Thanks!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    South Carolina Code of Laws Title 23 Chapter 31
    Title 23 - Law Enforcement and Public Safety
    CHAPTER 31.
    FIREARMS
    [ ...]
    ARTICLE 4.
    CONCEALED WEAPON PERMITS

    [ ...]
    SECTION 23-31-205. Name.
    This article may be cited as the "Law Abiding Citizens Self-Defense Act of 1996".

    [ ...]


    SECTION 23-31-215.
    Issuance of permits.

    [ ...]

    (K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver's license from a permit holder. A permit holder immediately must report the loss or theft of a permit identification card to SLED headquarters. A person who violates the provisions of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined twenty-five dollars.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    a little discourteous
    I'm all broken up about being discourteous to the police.

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    Michigan you must inform if concealed carrying when stopped bt LE. You also have to show ID and CPL. If open carrying you don't unless suspected of a crime.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    maustin195 wrote:
    Michigan you must inform if concealed carrying when stopped bt LE. You also have to show ID and CPL. If open carrying you don't unless suspected of a crime.
    This is in direct contradiction to what Dreamer has posted in his list of states above from his research.

    Please cite to authority so as to preclude others from having to search for it. Opinions or "what I have heard" have no value and can propagate erronious information.

    Yata hey


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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Dreamer wrote:
    So it's not really a general "duty to inform", this map would be more of a "duty to inform on initial contact"...

    Yeah, THAT stipulation makes it a LOT simpler up front for the map, and makes having a table of "caveats" or individual pages for each state a LOT easier.

    Good idea. Thanks!
    Another point of contention I have are the no-issue states. I would classify them as "no" or possibly "no with caveat."

    I would also classify California as "yes" or possibly "yes with caveat."

    For the purposes of a "duty to inform on initial contact" map, may-issue(no-issue in practice) states like Hawaii or Washington, D.C. should be classified as whatever their law is with regards to the duty to inform, nothing more. If there is a duty to inform for those few, special people who have permits, then it's a "yes." Otherwise it's a "no."


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    In Michigan you must "immediately" disclose to LEO if you are CC on foot or in a vehicle which is considered CC. And, upon request, provide CPL and Drivers License.

    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

    Sec. 5f.

    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.



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    What I posted is not an opinion it is the law. MCL 28.425f. It can be found at HTTP://Legislature.Mi.Gov/Doc.aspx?Mcl-28-425F

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    Here's the difficulty with a particular citation, I don't believe that Wisconsin has a statutory duty to inform. Wisconsin does not address a legally armed citizen directly in statute law but only in the absence of a prohibition.

    I searched all of Wisconsin statutes for "inform" to learn that essentially every chapter, and there are about a thousand chapters, has one or more mentions of "inform". Searching for the phrase "inform officer" was not any better.

    I'm sure that one of the toothless tyrant's falsies will eagerly correct me.

    Either we are equal or we are not. good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA ******* ******* the Obamination and its teeth.

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    Florida is not a 'must inform' state.

    The only requirement is that youcarry your CWFL and an ID while carrying concealed. Florida Statute 790.06(1):

    . . .
    The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.
    But there is no legal requirement to inform a LEO that you have a gun on your person, even if he/she asks. [Cannot provide a cite, because no such law exists]

    The law only requires that you display your licenseand ID upon demand by a LEO.

    If a LEO asks if you have a weapon/firearm, you are completely legal to say nothing at all, or you could even lie about it (as long as you are not being investigated for a crime - and no, traffic violations are not crimes in Florida).

    Note: This only applies to licensed concealed carry on or about your person (backpack/purse/etc). If you carry in your vehicle (not on your person) in compliance with Florida Statutes 790.25(3) or 790.25(5) you have no requirements, whatsoever, to show your CWFL or discuss the presence of any weapons/firearms.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    p85 wrote:
    As a side note, all states that do not require may ask you and if asked, you must answer.
    And would you care to post a citation to a law that makes it mandatory to answer or illegal to not answer? Especially one that applies to all 50 states as you suggest?
    No cite for this. Sorry if I muddied up the waters. I hope that the next time you are asked and refuse to answer is a pleasant experience.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Jamestown NC
    Posts
    67

    Post imported post

    Grapeshot wrote:
    p85 wrote:
    Although I am no longer a resident of NYS, I held a permit when I lived there. NYS does not require you to inform.

    As a side note, all states that do not require may ask you and if asked, you must answer.
    Please everybody, make it easier for Dreamer.

    Give him only facts w/cites on this.

    Yata hey
    Second statement dealt with above. As for the first, you will not find a cite requiring you not to inform.

    Dreamer asked for a helping hand. You have to expect that responders will have opinions.

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