Took my CWP class...

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Who did you take the class from? I did my class at Cabelas with the guy from FBMG and he did a decent job explaining open carry.

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b1ack5mith wrote:

Sgt. Jensen, give me a call tomarrow if you can

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I thought I advised you to take Clark Aposhian's class this Saturday, where such bullsh!t does not exist... :X


...kids.

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I don't know why anyone would give business to a person who is so incompetent in the services he is suppose to be providing. Of course, not knowing his name or business name, it may be difficult for others here to avoid him. We think nothing of letting each other know exactly which businesses are hostile to our rights to self defense. Let's let each other know which instructors to avoid as well.

On the seeking out known good instructors side Clark Aposhian and Mitch Vilos both teach excellent carry permit courses and both KNOW the laws well enough not to make these kinds of mistakes.

blacksmith, I encourage you to not only let everyone you know to avoid this particular instructor, but you should also drop a note t BCI letting them know that he is not accurately teaching Utah law.

Charles

P.S. Congrats on taking the class. I think you will quickly find that having a Utah permit has tremendous advantages under current laws. The ability to carry into school zones, to carry fully loaded, to casually conceal or even full up conceal, including to carry a concealed BUG while OCing are all very nice options to have.

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When I want to get instruction on any topic, I like for the instructor to be knowledgeable and have experience on the topic at hand. For example, a Law Professor has more credability to his students if he really practiced law. Sure he studied the law and knows it in and out, but there is something to say for the Instructor who is like you and has actually have done what you about to do.

Just sayin'

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utbagpiper wrote:

I don't know why anyone would give business to a person who is so incompetent in the services he is suppose to be providing. Of course, not knowing his name or business name, it may be difficult for others here to avoid him. We think nothing of letting each other know exactly which businesses are hostile to our rights to self defense. Let's let each other know which instructors to avoid as well.

On the seeking out known good instructors side Clark Aposhian and Mitch Vilos both teach excellent carry permit courses and both KNOW the laws well enough not to make these kinds of mistakes.

blacksmith, I encourage you to not only let everyone you know to avoid this particular instructor, but you should also drop a note t BCI letting them know that he is not accurately teaching Utah law.

Charles

P.S. Congrats on taking the class. I think you will quickly find that having a Utah permit has tremendous advantages under current laws. The ability to carry into school zones, to carry fully loaded, to casually conceal or even full up conceal, including to carry a concealed BUG while OCing are all very nice options to have.

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I believe this an invitation for you to name the instructor...unless he is a friend or someone you know on a first name basis.
-banki-

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Awesome way to go

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Yikes, bad info. I'm glad you argued everything.

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I sent him an email asking about his class, and what he teaches about OC, and also about the "loaded" question. I'll have him back up his answer with the statute, which he won't be able to.

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Thoughts-

1. You are right, but calling him on it right in front of the whole class was almost guaranteed to lead to confrontation.

2. One on one with one of our more knowledgeable members(you included) may well gain us an ally, rather than just pissing the guy off and creating a possible enemy, eh?


We always have to remember, most folks outside this board haven't a clue how the law reads.

Not chewin' in the least, just random thoughts late at night, eh?

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So I received a response from the guy. His email said pretty much the exact opposite of what you said. Weird. I wonder why he would teach one thing, then send an email telling a completely different story. Then again, he did say that I sounded more knowledgeable than most (referring to this issue), so maybe he didn't want to say something dumb..... Who knows.

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mqondo wrote:

So I received a response from the guy. His email said pretty much the exact opposite of what you said. Weird. I wonder why he would teach one thing, then send an email telling a completely different story. Then again, he did say that I sounded more knowledgeable than most (referring to this issue), so maybe he didn't want to say something dumb..... Who knows.

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mqondo, could you elaberate on his email,

Thanks

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Here is the email that I sent:
I was just curious as to a couple of things your website states. There is no proficiency requirement in the Utah Code. There is a weapons familiarity requirement, but not proficiency. Also, what is the difference in your CFP courses? One is $50 and 4 hours, and one is $75 and 8 hours. It says the $75 course you need gun, ammo and holster, so I'm guessing there is shooting involved. What is learned in this course? Also I know that Open Carrying a firearm is legal. Do you teach otherwise? Also, carrying a loaded firearm while either Concealing, or Open Carrying is legal. What do you teach about that?
Thanks for the info.
Mqondo

Here is his response:

Mqondo, Sorry about the misleading(s) on the web site, I paid a good amount of money for it and some of the items got all switched around. And I have been having lots of problems getting them corrected.

The 4 hr course is the Standard Utah CFP curriculum course. And is $50.00 if you pre-register.
The $75.00 course was the Standard 4hr Curriculum and an additional 4hrs of range time. After the class if you showed sufficient “Proficiency” with the course I handed out a NRA skills certificate, based on the level of your shooting proficiency. However I no longer teach firearms course, because I have signed a none-compete contract with Front Sight Training Institute. As I am starting as a line coach for them, in February. I am in the process of revising the web site sorry for that.

Utah has no Law on its books that prohibit the open carry of a firearm, loaded or unloaded. A lot of debate has gone on about the “loaded” option of this part. Getting your Concealed Weapons permit gives you the right to conceal the firearm, which there are laws on the books prohibiting the concealed carry of dangerous weapon(s).
I do caution students to open carry cautiously. Some cities in this state and others have arrested open carry individuals on the grounds that it created a public disturbance, or Disturbing the peace, and the fact that a lot of Law enforcement officers do not understand these laws, only go to confuse the issue more. To save yourself a lot of head ache I advise to use caution.
In 2009 Utah passed two favorable gun laws that I believe will further help clarify some of these issues.

House Bill 357: Allows a law-abiding citizen to choose how they carry a handgun for self-defense ( open, concealed, unloaded or loaded) in a vehicle without the need to obtain a permit.

S.B. 78: Makes it legal for people to have firearms stored in their locked vehicle parked on “private Property”.

To me it is sad that we have to even clarify laws that go against our 2[sup]nd[/sup] amendment rights in the first place, but I am happy to see that Utah is trying hard to protect our rights.

House Bill 357, sponsored by State Representative Steve Sandstrom (R-58), would make it easier for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves without the need to obtain a concealed weapon permit. HB 357 does the following:
• It fixes the clearly unintended aspect of existing law that makes it illegal to carry a concealed firearm in or on a person’s property or a business under the person’s control without a concealed weapon permit.
• It would clarify and simplify the currently vague and inconsistent law by allowing law-abiding citizens to choose how they carry a firearm (open, concealed, unloaded or loaded) in a vehicle without the need to obtain a permit.

Fifteen states, including Arizona, Colorado, Montana, and Nevada allow the carrying of concealed, loaded firearms for self-protection in vehicles without a concealed weapon permit. An additional nine states, including Idaho and Wyoming, allow loaded firearms to be carried openly for self-protection in vehicles.
It is my hope that Utah can clarify (if only for law enforcement officers) the vagueness between concealed carry and open carry, so some of these municipalities don’t see holes where they can violate individual rights.

It sounds like you already have a lot more knowledge about this than most. I am not a lawyer and encourage all my students who ask, to pick up a book by Mitch Vilos - Utah Gun Laws. He is a lawyer here in Utah and a Utah CFP instructor.

If you are interested in a class I do have a class coming up on this Saturday at the American Fork CAL Ranch store from 10am-2pm I have offered individuals who are trying to decide between open carry and concealed to sit in an audit the class, then if they want the permit we can fill out the paper work etc. after the class.

If you have any other question please feel free to email me some more or give me a call
801-885-6519

--
Chad

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I, too, took the same class and I must say that I had a completely different experience. I am in a completely different basket than you. Age, experience,and maturity on my side.

I found that the instructor provide the correct information for the class. I went to the class so that I could apply for a concealed weapons license. I do not want anyone to know what I am carrying for my personal safety. I believe that most people were there for the same reason, "concealed weapon."

I felt that he answered your questions correctly. You must realize that he did not have alot of time to answer you in detail, 4 hours is not enough time to cover all the laws in detail. I wanted to complete the class and get home. I was happy with his answers and glad that he moved the class along. If I want to know more about open carry and such it is my personal responsibility to research, study and ask questions on my time not yours or anyone else's.

If you know the laws about how, why, when, and where to open carry why on become and instructor yourself? THe State of Utah will give anyone the opportunity to become an instructor.

I did not find your comments to be arguementative as much as annoying. You could have at any time left the class. I am sure they would have refunded your money.

I will recommend this instructor to friends and family as he was recommended to me. There are few instructors out there that are offering the same quality instruction.