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Thread: Flat Rock, MI Gun Ban

  1. #1
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    Sec. 58-238. Possession of weapons. It shall be unlawful for any person to use, carry or possess firearms of any description, air guns, spring guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other form of weapon potentially inimical to wildlife and also dangerous to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges. (Code 1979, § 9.157)

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    You're beating me toeach on of theseposts....SLOW DOWN!!!



    Good work though :celebrate

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    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    mudvr1212 wrote:
    You're beating me toeach on of theseposts....SLOW DOWN!!!



    Good work though :celebrate
    I lived in Monroe for the first 30 years of my life.I pretty much grew up with no crime.Now I'm in Warren where criminals and cops are all over the place.Hope things are good down there.This place has turned me into a right wing extremist,ready for war!LOL!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    There have been a few bank robberies in Monroe in the past few years. The bank in Maybee was robbed/or attempted robberylike 5 times in 2 years!!!

    There isn't much, but with this economy people do stupid s#it!



    I work up on the south side of Detroit and I am always watching my surroudings.

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    hamaneggs wrote:
    mudvr1212 wrote:
    You're beating me toeach on of theseposts....SLOW DOWN!!!



    Good work though :celebrate
    I lived in Monroe for the first 30 years of my life.I pretty much grew up with no crime.Now I'm in Warren where criminals and cops are all over the place.Hope things are good down there.This place has turned me into a right wing extremist,ready for war!LOL
    My question is....."How hard is it to tell the difference between the two?":quirky
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    Is this just a city ordinance that the city posted but doesn't really matter? According to 123.1102 of the State of Michigan it states:

    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state."

    So with that, has this ordinance been approved by the state saying that it's OK and completely legit or does the State override the city in this case?

  7. #7
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Letter Sent to the city of Flat Rock,


    Dear Flat Rock Officials,

    I have become aware of an illegal and unenforceable ordinance you havein regards to restricting the carrying and possessing of firearms.
    Sec. 58-238. Possession of weapons. It shall be unlawful for any person to use, carry or possess firearms of any description, air guns, spring guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other form of weapon potentially inimical to wildlife and also dangerous to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges. (Code 1979, § 9.157)
    As you may or may not know, in 1990 the State of Michigan passed MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEALS COURT CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    My hope is that you amend this ordinance that restricts the right to carry a firearm to comply with state law. Failure to do so may be considered an act of malfeasance as it willfully misinforms the public. I look forward to your response and resolution in this matter.
    Respectfully,
    Scott Webb
    South East Coordinator
    Michigan Open Carry, Inc.



    This is the response received



    Mr. Webb,
    I have sent your email on to the city attorney. He is the one who recommends any changes in city ordinances.
    Neal A. Rossow
    Chief of Police
    City of Flat Rock
    25500 Gibraltar Rd.
    Flat Rock, MI 48134
    (734) 782-2496
    FBINA #212



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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Smithc11369 wrote:
    Is this just a city ordinance that the city posted but doesn't really matter? According to 123.1102 of the State of Michigan it states:

    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state."

    So with that, has this ordinance been approved by the state saying that it's OK and completely legit or does the State override the city in this case?
    state has complete preemption.



    unlawful orninance,probably made before the state decided on preemption.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    Smithc11369 wrote:
    Is this just a city ordinance that the city posted but doesn't really matter? According to 123.1102 of the State of Michigan it states:

    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state."

    So with that, has this ordinance been approved by the state saying that it's OK and completely legit or does the State override the city in this case?
    state has complete preemption.



    unlawful ordinance,probably made before the state decided on preemption.
    A small group of us meet in Flat Rock a year or so ago . Told City we would be there in restaurant on US 24 . Great Time -good food no big deal .

  10. #10
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    whatever happened with the flat rock thing? that is where i live.

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    iheartglock wrote:
    whatever happened with the flat rock thing? that is where i live.
    It is in the hands of the city attorney right now. As things usually move slow in these matters, I'll wait 30 days and then contact again. If nothing has progressed then I will attempt to attend a city council meeting.

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    if you do plan on attending a city council meeting i will attend as well

  13. #13
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    Received a email response from Chief Rossow.


    February 5, 2010

    Mr. Webb,
    I wanted to keep you updated on ordinance Sec. 58-238. I contacted the City Attorney and he is working on the changes in the ordinance language. As I mentioned before, he is the one who makes any suggestions reference changing ordinances. He believes he will have something before council within the next 30 days.
    Respectfully,
    Neal A. Rossow
    Chief of Police
    City of Flat Rock
    25500 Gibraltar Rd.
    Flat Rock , MI 48134
    (734) 782-2496

  14. #14
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    FYI I dropped off the open carry packet at both Flat rock and Brownstown PD last year. They are well aware.

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Received this email Friday 2/26/10.

    Another win for us.

    Mr. Webb,
    The first reading of the new ordinance will be Monday, March 1, 2010. Ordinances must be “read” twice before they can be adopted.

    Respectfully,
    Neal A. Rossow
    Chief of Police
    City of Flat Rock
    25500 Gibraltar Rd.
    Flat Rock , MI 48134
    (734) 782-2496

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    Fantastic! If only all cities were this responsive...

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    The key is to give them time to research it themselves, figure out that you are correct, then figure out how to quietly change the ordinance without making a big deal out of it.

    Patience, persistence, and diplomacy works wonders.

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    Arm yourself (open carry) and walk into city council and confront them like I did. I will soon be going back because It's been over 3 months and no change. This time I remind the city attorney of the oath he took. I will also have papers in my hand to petition the ATTORNEY GENERAL ON THE MATTER IF THEY DO NOT STRIKE THE FIREARMS LANGUAGE BEFORE COUNCIL ADJOURNS.
    yOU GOTTA FIGHT THESE PEOPLE FACE TO FACE. YOU WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION. WRITING LETTERS TO THEM IS A WASTE OF TIME.

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    American Sheepdog wrote:
    Arm yourself (open carry) and walk into city council and confront them like I did. I will soon be going back because It's been over 3 months and no change. This time I remind the city attorney of the oath he took. I will also have papers in my hand to petition the ATTORNEY GENERAL ON THE MATTER IF THEY DO NOT STRIKE THE FIREARMS LANGUAGE BEFORE COUNCIL ADJOURNS.
    yOU GOTTA FIGHT THESE PEOPLE FACE TO FACE. YOU WILL GET THEIR ATTENTION. WRITING LETTERS TO THEM IS A WASTE OF TIME.
    Writing letters is the first step. I have posted before about other cities I've written and they have corrected their ordinances immediately. Remember there are steps to handle things to show we are the educated, respectable law abiding citizens.

  20. #20
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    Didn't work with me. Different council mentalities I guess.

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    American Sheepdog wrote:
    Arm yourself (open carry) and walk into city council and confront them like I did.
    A very good way to ensure that any local reporter makes headlines, and gets a groundswell of petition signatures to ban open carry across Michigan.

    Confrontation is NOT the answer.

    Going to a meeting, unarmed, and making your voice heard, as a reasonable citizen asking them to repeal an invalid ordinance, gets the public on your side.

    Confrontational action, while armed, is the LAST thing you want to do, if you truly want to change local attitudes and comfort levels.

    One thing you must understand- EVEN if the local ordinance is still on the books, it is not enforceable.

    The State of Michigan still has a large number of unenforceable laws on the books.

    But since the State of Michigan legislature made clear that THEY are the only ones who can set open carry laws state wide, you stand a good chance of forcing the State Legislature to do something about it.

    Attitude is everything.

    Impressions are important.

    Your right to open carry, is currently at the grace of the Legislature in Michigan. Should they choose to impose new rules, they can do it. So far, they have not. That's because there have not been significant incidents thus far, and political pressure to "do something" at the state level hasn't been strong. Your being confrontational in a local city council meeting could have very adverse reactions.

    Yes, it would be nice if they removed the clearly unenforceable ordinances off the books of all small communities. The State of Michigan has unenforceable laws on the books too. You must use respect, reason, logic, and get public support in order to change things.

    Confrontation is not the way to get it done. You only risk stirring up enough support to lose your right to open carry by such things as state-wide ballot measures in the future, or by legislation passed by sitting Legislators who must also answer to riled up local constituents.

    Sorry, but that the flat-out truth.

  22. #22
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    We all have our passion and we operate in different ways. Each person must stand for justice in their own manner they see fit under the law. I don't take kindly to being told my way is not as good as another, especially when it is protected by the 2nd Amendment. At what point do you threaten a tyrannical government with legal action? When It's too late?
    Do it your way, I'll do it mine. Personally, I know for a fact the reason folks choose to write letters and go in front of government for a redress of grievences is because they are afraid of them. I see it with my own eyes. One thing is certain...they will know me by name and I will have performed my duty to petition my government without fear of reprisals.

  23. #23
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    My right to carry is not by the grace of some legislature. That's where your rights come from. If they take it away, you are screwed. But for me, and thousands of true patriots who understand the unalienable right, the only way I am not allowed to carry is if they physically take it from me without my permission and with whatever Constitutional resistance necessary.
    Makes me wonder if folks who believe their rights come from the whim of sitting legislators would turn in their gun if they were told to. I would rethink some things you wrote.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uvaNE37j5E

    Might I offer a look into how I do things. No fear bro! Stand and shout or die a mute.

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    James_Liv_Co wrote:
    American Sheepdog wrote:
    Arm yourself (open carry) and walk into city council and confront them like I did.
    Confrontation is NOT the answer.
    Sir, I respectfully disagree.

    Do some research on this site, I believe you will find that the reason that Open Carry has come this far is EXACTLY what American_Sheepdog did - stood up for his rights. This site is chock-full of what has been accomplished by PEACEFULLY ASSEMBLING and ASSERTING OUR RIGHTS, not disarming.

    Fear is not the answer.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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