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Thread: Straw-buyer update

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    If you recall the case of the guy straw-buying for the other guy who eventually shot the two Milwaukee Leo, here is the latest:

    http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/80971787.html

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    "Manning asked for 10 years in prison and urged U.S. District Judge Lynn Adelman to send a message to other potential straw buyers - people with clean records who buy guns for felons or others not allowed to purchase one."

    This is not the definition of a straw purchaser. This is better:

    straw buyer - person who buys a gun but is not the true purchaser

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    apjonas wrote:
    "Manning asked for 10 years in prison and urged U.S. District Judge Lynn Adelman to send a message to other potential straw buyers - people with clean records who buy guns for felons or others not allowed to purchase one."

    This is not the definition of a straw purchaser. This is better:

    straw buyer - person who buys a gun but is not the true purchaser
    The quoted "definition" is the relevant one and a good working definition for practical applications. You will be prosecuted if you buy one for a prohibited person and are caught. You will not be prosecuted if you buy one as a gift or for a relative or even friend as a matter of convenience...



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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    apjonas wrote:
    "Manning asked for 10 years in prison and urged U.S. District Judge Lynn Adelman to send a message to other potential straw buyers - people with clean records who buy guns for felons or others not allowed to purchase one."

    This is not the definition of a straw purchaser. This is better:

    straw buyer - person who buys a gun but is not the true purchaser
    The quoted "definition" is the relevant one and a good working definition for practical applications. You will be prosecuted if you buy one for a prohibited person and are caught. You will not be prosecuted if you buy one as a gift or for a relative or even friend as a matter of convenience...

    You are not a straw purchaser if you buy for the purpose of giving as a bona fide gift. And I never claimed such. You are a straw purchaser if you buy for a friend as a "matter of convenience" - whether the friend is the Pope or Usama bin Laden. If you want to entrust your freedom to prosecutorial discretion - have at it.


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    apjonas wrote:
    You are not a straw purchaser if you buy for the purpose of giving as a bona fide gift. And I never claimed such. You are a straw purchaser if you buy for a friend as a "matter of convenience" - whether the friend is the Pope or Usama bin Laden. If you want to entrust your freedom to prosecutorial discretion - have at it.
    Negative..... I am always the actual purchaser in strict compliance with the law and as noted on the 4473.

    What I do with it in WI afterwards is no one's business or concern unless I knowingly transfer it to a prohibited person...

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    apjonas wrote:
    You are not a straw purchaser if you buy for the purpose of giving as a bona fide gift. And I never claimed such. You are a straw purchaser if you buy for a friend as a "matter of convenience" - whether the friend is the Pope or Usama bin Laden. If you want to entrust your freedom to prosecutorial discretion - have at it.
    Negative..... I am always the actual purchaser in strict compliance with the law and as noted on the 4473.

    What I do with it in WI afterwards is no one's business or concern unless I knowingly transfer it to a prohibited person...
    Negative on the negative. Under your scenario, you could handa newly bought firearm to a (non-prohibited) person five minutes after you purchase it as he hands you the purchase price in cash (or anything else of value). I rather believe that a court would think that you are not the true purchaser. Even in WI.

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    apjonas wrote:
    Negative on the negative. Under your scenario, you could handa newly bought firearm to a (non-prohibited) person five minutes after you purchase it as he hands you the purchase price in cash (or anything else of value). I rather believe that a court would think that you are not the true purchaser. Even in WI.

    There are scenerios where I most certainly could exchange itit 5 minutes later for something else of value and it would most definitely not be a straw purchase on my part.

    A jury would aquit.....

    Title 18 Section 44 prohibits a false statement on a 4473. The question in point is if you are the actual purchaser. If you use someone else's money and buy it for them you are a straw purchaser. If you make a purchase as a matter of convenience yetneither you nor your buddy are axe murderers the odds of you being prosecuted for this simple infraction are near zero. If youare andwould befound guilty, you are sunk.If the attention of an officer is on you and your friends such that they are worried about where you purchased your firearms, you have much larger problems at hand than just a potential straw purchase charge....

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    Hmm.... Bought the firearm. Spent some complimentry time on the range shooting said firearm. Didn't like the way it felt. Since no returns had to take it home. Well maybe the wifey got mad about spending the money. Now had to sell it to joe Smith down the road to appease the wife or go get a dog house to sleep in.

    Sounds plausable to me. Not that I condone straw purchases but how is any body going to prove that something like that didn't happen. I remember a story of a journalist who bought a glock to do a story about open carry. Next week decided she didn't want/need it in her opinion. So she sold it. Could it be argued by an anti prosecuter that she had every intention of selling it when she bought it? Possibly. But the real question is how can you protect yourself from this open ended law that leaves so much to be assumed about the real "intent" of the purchaser at the time of purchase.

    Me personally I have bought a pistol as a gift for a relative, but since it truly was a gift I have now worries. Then again how do you prove that money actually changed hands?

    Then how do you prove that a FFL dealer knowingly made a sale that was likely to be a straw purchase? Unless that dealer told tehm the proper answers or had them changing them I just don't see it being clear cut either.

    Had I walked into a gun store and they refused to sell me a firearm I would never visit that establishment again. After all they are basically implying that I have the intent to commit a crime. Kind of like your neighborhood market saying you can't buy beer cause your kid is in the car and you might be trying to shop for him instead.

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    Cobra469 wrote:
    Hmm.... Bought the firearm. Spent some complimentry time on the range shooting said firearm. Didn't like the way it felt. Since no returns had to take it home. Well maybe the wifey got mad about spending the money. Now had to sell it to joe Smith down the road to appease the wife or go get a dog house to sleep in.

    Sounds plausable to me. Not that I condone straw purchases but how is any body going to prove that something like that didn't happen. I remember a story of a journalist who bought a glock to do a story about open carry. Next week decided she didn't want/need it in her opinion. So she sold it. Could it be argued by an anti prosecuter that she had every intention of selling it when she bought it? Possibly. But the real question is how can you protect yourself from this open ended law that leaves so much to be assumed about the real "intent" of the purchaser at the time of purchase.

    Me personally I have bought a pistol as a gift for a relative, but since it truly was a gift I have now worries. Then again how do you prove that money actually changed hands?
    Exactly. Prohibited persons are who the effort and money is spent on prosecuting a straw purchase. It would be very difficult to prove otherwise.

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    I would think it is easier to prosecute the prohibited person just on the grounds that they generally already know that they can't get one hence why they buy it from private party or try to get somebody to make the purchase in the first place.

    Still think it is difficult to prove the straw purchase and teh easier charge would be to charge them for having a weapon that they are prohibited from owning in the first place.

    After all how am I supposed to know the guy I sold it to a few days later wasn't supposed to own one?

    Then again a private party sales form "might" help to show that a "reasonable time has elapsed to argue that it was not a straw purchase. Especially if there is no history of contact between the seller and buyer before.

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    [line]
    Question 11a.on Fiream Transfer records Form 4473 dated August 2008.

    11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are aquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (see Instructions for Question 11.a.) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.



    The emphasis's are as they actually appear on the 4473 form.











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    So if a 17 year old gives his parents money to by a long gun for him would that be a straw purchuse?

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    Captain Nemo wrote:
    You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.
    Mom, read the rules.

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    Cobra469 wrote:
    Hmm.... Bought the firearm. Spent some complimentry time on the range shooting said firearm. Didn't like the way it felt. Since no returns had to take it home. Well maybe the wifey got mad about spending the money. Now had to sell it to joe Smith down the road to appease the wife or go get a dog house to sleep in.
    Not too far from the way in NEARLY happened at my house. I purchased a rifle (my money, my intent etc) but didnt inform my wife that I was going to buy it (was on sale!!!!!-works for them why not us???) so she started to b*tch about it once I brought it home. I was contemplating selling it to maintainpeace I changed my mind after she started talking about "her" money. Needless to say I still have the rifle.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    I purchased a rifle (my money, my intent etc) but didnt inform my wife that I was going to buy it (was on sale!!!!!-works for them why not us???) so she started to b*tch about it once I brought it home. I was contemplating selling it to maintainpeace I changed my mind after she started talking about "her" money. Needless to say I still have the rifle.
    It always works that way.......

    been there, done that!



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    Excellent tap dancing. However the question was whether or not a transaction is a straw purchase (and thus illegal) NOT what are the odds of you getting caught, prosecuted, jail time, winning the lotto. Even if there is no intent in your mind, a rapid turnover of ownership doesn't look too good. Again, if you want to leave your freedomto the whim of a prosecutor hot for a gun crime conviction - have at it.


    Interceptor_Knight wrote:

    apjonas wrote:
    Negative on the negative. Under your scenario, you could handa newly bought firearm to a (non-prohibited) person five minutes after you purchase it as he hands you the purchase price in cash (or anything else of value). I rather believe that a court would think that you are not the true purchaser. Even in WI.
    There are scenerios where I most certainly could exchange itit 5 minutes later for something else of value and it would most definitely not be a straw purchase on my part.

    A jury would aquit.....

    Title 18 Section 44 prohibits a false statement on a 4473. The question in point is if you are the actual purchaser. If you use someone else's money and buy it for them you are a straw purchaser. If you make a purchase as a matter of convenience yetneither you nor your buddy are axe murderers the odds of you being prosecuted for this simple infraction are near zero. If youare andwould befound guilty, you are sunk.If the attention of an officer is on you and your friends such that they are worried about where you purchased your firearms, you have much larger problems at hand than just a potential straw purchase charge....

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    Here is a link to a BATFE training document. Hope this helps:

    http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms...episode-4.html


    Check out the very last paragraph of the transcript. Now think of this:

    You go with someone else to purchase a firearm, say your sister, wife, brother, etc. She/he is not prohibited and neither are you. She/he fills out the 4473 but YOU pay for it with cash, credit card, etc. Is that a straw purchase? Nope. I have done this a few times and did it just a few days ago.



    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

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    Very fine line there rcawdor57. If you pay for a firearm and give it to someone as a gift (accept no money for it) then you/they answer yes to question 11.a. on the 4473 form. However if a person gives you money to buy a firearm for them then you must answer no to question 11.a.

    If a non-prohibited person fills out the 4473 form and passes the background check and you pay for the firearm the ATF doesn't consider that a straw purchase they consider it a gift.



    Whether a purchase is considered a gift, legal purchase or "straw" purchase is dependent on the background check andother qualificationsof the person taking final possession of that purchase. Sometimes that slope can get rather slippery.

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    Captain Nemo wrote:
    Very fine line there rcawdor57. If you pay for a firearm and give it to someone as a gift (accept no money for it) then you/they answer yes to question 11.a. on the 4473 form. However if a person gives you money to buy a firearm for them then you must answer no to question 11.a.

    If a non-prohibited person fills out the 4473 form and passes the background check and you pay for the firearm the ATF doesn't consider that a straw purchase they consider it a gift.



    Whether a purchase is considered a gift, legal purchase or "straw" purchase is dependent on the background check andother qualificationsof the person taking final possession of that purchase. Sometimes that slope can get rather slippery.
    Not a gift at all, this is completely legal. There is no "slippery slope". Let me say this again "If my wife, brother, etc...fills out the paperwork and are NOT prohibited (ie, they PASS the NICs check) and another person pays for it there is absolutely no "fine line" here. Never did I say the firearm was being transferred to a prohibited person.

    The last time this happened with me was when my wife PAID for my firearm a week ago. Was that illegal? Nope. Too many people are missing the intent of this law. If you fill out the 4473 form and buy a gun for someone who cannot buy it for themselves then it is a straw purchase once you transfer that firearm to them.

    http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...-purchases.pdf

    “If you purchase a firearm for someone who cannot legally do so, that stroke of a pen
    could cost you up to 10 years in federal prison with no parole,” stated U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Texas John E. Murphy. “Ask yourself, ‘Is it worth it?’”

    Added this link: http://www.dontlie.org/index.cfm







    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    Please drop the "prohibited person" aspect. It just confuses the issue. Everybody knows (I hope) that a p.p. cannot purchase. Now, if A and B go together and A fills out the 4473, why would B pay for the firearm? Was he simply holding A's cash because his pockets are bigger? Who is to be the owner? That is who has control over the firearm, who would have the right to sell or bequeath it? If that person does not equal the 4473 filler-outer (and it is not a bona fide gift situation), you have a straw purchase. If A thinks B should have a firearm but B is poor, A can give B $ sufficient to buy an appropriate item (well in advance is recommended). Why? Because B is the true purchaser, A was simply a generous benefactor before the fact. There is an understanding thatB not Awill have control over the firearm after the sale is complete. A cannot give the seller his (i.e. A's money) if B fills out the form. Why? Because A is the true purchaser. Even if A plans to give the firearm to B. At the point of purchase, A exercises dominion over the firearm. As noted, it is possible for the 4473-person to use a gift of $ from another to pay for it. If what you are saying is that the gift of $ occurs after the 4473 is filled out and the 4473 person knowingly did not have the means to pay for the firearm when the form was completed - he could not have been the true purchaser. On the other hand if he suddenly realizes that he forgot his money belt and borrows the $ - no problem (although it would look suspicious to an FFL). When you boil it down it is a matter of intent. Who has the cash and who fills out the forms are indicia of intent. The best way to avoid trouble is to ensure that the 4473 is filled out by the person who uses his own money to pay and intends to possess and exercise ownership over the firearm for the forseeable future. Except for a gift any purchase using somebody (non-4473 signer) else's money and/or involving transferring the firearm to their possession and control in the near future is suspect.



    rcawdor57 wrote:
    Captain Nemo wrote:
    Very fine line there rcawdor57. If you pay for a firearm and give it to someone as a gift (accept no money for it) then you/they answer yes to question 11.a. on the 4473 form. However if a person gives you money to buy a firearm for them then you must answer no to question 11.a.

    If a non-prohibited person fills out the 4473 form and passes the background check and you pay for the firearm the ATF doesn't consider that a straw purchase they consider it a gift.



    Whether a purchase is considered a gift, legal purchase or "straw" purchase is dependent on the background check andother qualificationsof the person taking final possession of that purchase. Sometimes that slope can get rather slippery.
    Not a gift at all, this is completely legal. There is no "slippery slope". Let me say this again "If my wife, brother, etc...fills out the paperwork and are NOT prohibited (ie, they PASS the NICs check) and another person pays for it there is absolutely no "fine line" here. Never did I say the firearm was being transferred to a prohibited person.

    The last time this happened with me was when my wife PAID for my firearm a week ago. Was that illegal? Nope. Too many people are missing the intent of this law. If you fill out the 4473 form and buy a gun for someone who cannot buy it for themselves then it is a straw purchase once you transfer that firearm to them.

    http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...-purchases.pdf

    “If you purchase a firearm for someone who cannot legally do so, that stroke of a pen
    could cost you up to 10 years in federal prison with no parole,” stated U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Texas John E. Murphy. “Ask yourself, ‘Is it worth it?’”

    Added this link: http://www.dontlie.org/index.cfm







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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Simply put the person who fills out the 4473 form is the owner regardless of how it is paid for. You are making this way too hard. I can assure you that paying for a firearm that is not yours is 100% legal since the 4473 form is the document that "transfers" the firearm. Here, let me give you an example:

    I order 6 firearms from 6 different distributors for 6 different people. I have no idea if any of those 6 individuals are "prohibited" when the order is placed. I use my personal credit card to order these firearms using the FFL of the owner of the store for the receiving FFL. All firearms are shipped to the FFL with MY NAME on the invoice for ALL 6 FIREARMS even though the FFL is NOT in my name. So far I have paid for 6 firearms with my own money yet they are shipped to someone else's FFL. That is how it is done thousands of times a day in this country. Nothing illegal about this at all. Now on with the example...The 6 individuals that wanted those 6 firearms now enter the store and fill out the 4473 form. Once the NIC's check is done and handgun transfer paperwork (for Wisconsin if applicable) is done and everything is satisfactory the firearm can be "transferred" to each of these people REGARDLESS of who paid for them. If some person with extra cash is standing in front of my local gun store handing out one hundred dollar bills and I use that money to buy a gun for myself is that a straw purchase? No. Of course not. The firearm is transferred to me, not him and retained by me.

    Another example which is also 100% legal. I call a firearms distributor let's say in the Shotgun News. I order an AR-15 (or whatever) and pay for it with my credit card but have it shipped to my neighbor who has an FFL. So the first transfer is from the distributor to the FFL (neighbor) but I PAID FOR IT and the invoice is in MY NAME. Legal? Absolutely! Once the FFL receives it he/she has me fill out the 4473 form and if all goes well it is then "transferred" to me.

    The exact same thing is applicable for all these "gun raffles" we see from the NRA, car dealers, banks (yes, there are a few), etc....they pay for the firearm yet I receive it through a 4473 transfer. Nothing illegal about this at all. Whoever fills out the 4473 is the owner regardless of who pays for it.

    By the way, I have done every example above except the "raffle" many, many times and still have the paperwork to prove it. In the gun store I worked in for every special order firearm we would have the person pay for it up front using their credit card yet the firearm was shipped to the store owners FFL. The invoice had the FFL as the legal receiver of the firearm but the invoice would be in the customer's name as the payer. Legal? Absolutely.

    Oh, another example I just remembered: I bought 3 Russian M44's and 3 German K98k's using my neighbor's FFL. The firearms were purchased using my credit card but shipped to the FFL. Invoice is in my name as payer but FFL is receiver. I then fill out the 4473 forms for the rifles and pay the NIC's fee and transfer fee charged by my FFL neighbor ($25 per firearm). Legal? Absolutely. Now I decide to sell said firearms to my co-workers. I take said firearm to my FFL neighbor and he has my co-workers fill out the 4473 forms. Once the NIC's check is done and satisfactory the rifles are transferred to my co-workers. My co-workers pay the FFL holder a transfer fee of (usually) $25 each and the deal is done. Legal? Absolutely. Did they pay the FFL holder for each rifle? Nope. They paid me. This is exactly how our politicians WANT us to transfer each and every firearm to another person in a private sale....by using an FFL holder and having the 4473 form filled out and a NICs check done. To be on the safe side I usually do this when selling my firearms to someone I do not know.

    No where have I said I bought a firearm, transferred it to me using the 4473 and then handed it to someone else. That would be illegal.


    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

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    Sorry Rcawdor57 but you don't own the firearm until you fill out the 4473 form and pass the NCIS check. Doesn't matter if you pay for it before or after the check. If you don't pass the NICS check the firearm is returned to the original place of purchase and it is your fight then to get your money back. Read line item 11.a. on the 4473 form again. Howmore plain can it be? If you pay for a firearm and someone else fills out the 4473 form so they can transfer ownership from the dealer to them then that is considered a gift. You mention a raffle where someone wins a firearm that has already been paid for by the organization conducting the raffle and is won by a contestant. That firearm is a gift from the association to the winner. The winner then acquires a transfer of permanent ownership from the association when and if he/she passes the NICS check. In my opinion, so far, you have been walking a fine line.

    In the example of 6 firearms you were merely acting as a broker for the dealer. You never were the owner even though you paid for them. In fact you were involved in an illegal transaction because you were dealing in the multiple sales of firearms (presumably for some marginal profit) while not having a Federal Firearms license or not being listed on someone elses FFL as an agent. The only way you could have legally acted in that scenario is to have the distributor transfer the six firearms to you, have you fill out a 4473 form for each firearm and have you fill out the additional 'Multiple purchase" form. You in turn could then send the firearms to the respective FFL holders who then would have the final purchaser fill out a 4473 form transferring the firearm from you to them.

    If you are not the actual buyer thedealer can not transfer the firearm to you.

    Buyer -- The person that pays for the firearm.

    Just because you got by with your transactions does not make them legal.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Captain Nemo wrote:
    Sorry Rcawdor57 but you don't own the firearm until you fill out the 4473 form and pass the NCIS check. Doesn't matter if you pay for it before or after the check. If you don't pass the NICS check the firearm is returned to the original place of purchase and it is your fight then to get your money back. Read line item 11.a. on the 4473 form again. Howmore plain can it be? If you pay for a firearm and someone else fills out the 4473 form so they can transfer ownership from the dealer to them then that is considered a gift. You mention a raffle where someone wins a firearm that has already been paid for by the organization conducting the raffle and is won by a contestant. That firearm is a gift from the association to the winner. The winner then acquires a transfer of permanent ownership from the association when and if he/she passes the NICS check. In my opinion, so far, you have been walking a fine line.

    In the example of 6 firearms you were merely acting as a broker for the dealer. You never were the owner even though you paid for them. In fact you were involved in an illegal transaction because you were dealing in the multiple sales of firearms (presumably for some marginal profit) while not having a Federal Firearms license or not being listed on someone elses FFL as an agent. The only way you could have legally acted in that scenario is to have the distributor transfer the six firearms to you, have you fill out a 4473 form for each firearm and have you fill out the additional 'Multiple purchase" form. You in turn could then send the firearms to the respective FFL holders who then would have the final purchaser fill out a 4473 form transferring the firearm from you to them.

    If you are not the actual buyer thedealer can not transfer the firearm to you.

    Buyer -- The person that pays for the firearm.

    Just because you got by with your transactions does not make them legal.
    Sorry Captain but you are incorrect. The 4473 form is the only form that transfers final ownership to the transferee. I can go to Shooters with my credit card and pay for any firearm in the store for anyone else. It is NOT a gift. You do not understand the rules involved with transferring ownership of a firearm. The 4473 form is used whether or not there is any money changing hands simply to get the NICs check done and legally transfer ownership. I know well what 11a states and it states such because when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun they are normally the one paying for AND filling out the 4473 form for transfer to that same person.

    Buying a gun and having legal USE of it is NOT done by any document except the 4473 form and in certain cases through the Bound Book. All the examples listed are 100% legal. The 4473 form is NOT used until (normally) the final transfer of a firearm. Let me be more specific: I call Southern Ohio Gun in Ohio and order two firearms from them. I pay for it with your credit card. The firearms are shipped to let's say...Shooters using their FFL. Shooters retains legal custody of the firearm FOREVER until a 4473 form is filled out for that specific firearm. Once the background check is done the firearm is transferred to the person who filled out the 4473 form. As long as that person retains possession of that firearm it is 100% legal. No straw purchase at all.

    You do NOT understand what a GIFT is under BATFE rules. A GIFT is when person"A" fills out the 4473 form (regardless of WHO pays for it) and passes the NICs check. The firearm is transferred legally to the person who filled out the 4473 form. The person who filled out the 4473 can NOW GIVE IT AWAY. That is a GIFT under the BATFE guidelines. If you happen to GIVE that firearm to someone who CANNOT legally own a firearm then THAT is a STRAW PURCHASE. Simple as that.


    As for my example of 6 gun purchases it is not an illegal transaction at all. Just because I pay for it with my credit card doesn't make it illegal. It certainly isn't a multiple firearm transaction either since I do NOT have the firearms. If that were the case then every gun store would have to do what you stated every time they bought more than 2 handguns from a single distributor. The FFL holder HAS the firearms and only transfers them legally to whoever fills out the 4473 form and passes the NICs check. If no one passes the NIC's check then the FFL holder can send them back or sell them to anyone else who passes a NICs check and fills out the 4473 form. And no where in my statement did I ever say I was making any profit.

    Just so you understand, I had my own FFL for many years and have attended many training seminars with the ATF agents. The question of straw purchase scenarios comes up many times because we want to be careful and not violate any rules or laws involved with firearms.

    Have you ever looked in the Shotgun News for "FFL dealers in your area". There are many who will "transfer" the firearm to you. For instance, you go on GunBroker or Auction Arms and buy a gun but do not have your own FFL. You contact one of the people who will do the transfer for you and use their FFL as the receiver of your purchase. Once they receive the firearm you go to their business, fill out the 4473 form, pass the NICs check, pay them their transfer fee and receive your firearm. You can send your friend, your brother, your mother, etc...to pick up the gun as well. They would have to fill out the 4473 form and pass the NICs check. Once that is done THEY will have legally received the firearm. As long as the person who filled out and signed the 4473 form KEEPs it it is 100% legal. If they instead drop it off on a street corner in Milwaukee then that is 100% ILLEGAL AND A STRAW PURCHASE.

    If my mother filled out the 4473, passed the NICs check and then GAVE me the firearm as a GIFT then that is 100% legal (as long as I am not a prohibited person) and is considered a GIFT under federal law.

    Here is the way the FFL works: I get a FFL for dealing in firearms, considered a type 01 (dealer). I order firearms from several distributors to put in my store. There are NO 4473 forms involved in this AT ALL. Instead what we do is log these firearms into what is termed "A Bound Book" as specified by the BATFE. We OWN these firearms but we cannot legally USE these firearms. If I wanted to USE this firearm for my own personal use I must fill out the Bound Book in the "Disposition" column that I am now using this for myself. Now if the FFL is a corporation, and the firearm is being transferred to a corporate officer or director for other than business purposes, then a form 4473 must be executed to transfer legal possession. Now, once that firearm is transferred to me I MUST pay the sales tax on that specific firearm to the state if not already done.

    Let's say I want to GIVE my firearms away to my children as I get older. If I give a firearm to one of my kids who I know to be a prohibited person then that is considered ILLEGAL even though there is NO 4473 form or any money changing hands. Now let's say I want to give YOU a firearm. You come to my house and pick out what you want. We take said firearm to let's say Gander Mountain and ask them to "transfer" legal possession from me to you. You fill out the 4473 form and pass the NIC's check. You take possession of said firearm. No money exchanged hands yet you still have the firearm. Did you violate step "11a"? Of course not. Is this considered a "GIFT"? No! Now if YOU take this firearm you just received from ME and GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE. Then that IS a gift IAW BATFE.

    Same thing goes when and if I transfer my firearms to my kids. Our politicians are trying to make it so we can only transfer legal ownership by using a FFL dealer and a 4473 form with NICS check even though there is NO MONEY EXCHANGED. Does that violate step "11a"? Of course not.

    Several times I have paid for a firearm when I was not the person who filled out the 4473 form. At Bass Pro my sister filled out the 4473 form for her shotgun, I filled out my 4473 form for a Weatherby rifle. I PAID for both firearms with my credit card. Legal? Absolutely. She retained her shotgun, I retained my rifle. Was it a gift? No. At a gun show last year I paid for five firearms with my credit card to ONE FFL dealer. I paid for firearms for myself and a coworker because he did not have his credit card with him. Legal? Yep. He filled out the 4473 form for his guns, me for mine. He kept his, I kept mine. When my wife and I picked out our open carry guns she filled out a 4473 form for her revolver, me for my Glock. I paid for both. Legal? Yep. Gift? NO! Straw purchase? NO.

    Here is EXACTLY what step 11(s) states from the BATFE website:

    11. Answer questions 11.a (See exceptions) through 11.l and 12 (if applicable) by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions.
    a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? WARNING: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See instructions for question 11.a) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a and may proceed to question 11.b.



    I have explained this way too many times. If you still do not understand then you never will.



    The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -- Samuel Adams

    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

    John F. Kennedy

  24. #24
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    Post your FFL number and name we can decide who is truthin and aint.

  25. #25
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    3-39-093-01-9E-342xx

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