Straw-buyer update

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Simply put the person who fills out the 4473 form is the owner regardless of how it is paid for. You are making this way too hard. I can assure you that paying for a firearm that is not yours is 100% legal since the 4473 form is the document that "transfers" the firearm. Here, let me give you an example:

I order 6 firearms from 6 different distributors for 6 different people. I have no idea if any of those 6 individuals are "prohibited" when the order is placed. I use my personal credit card to order these firearms using the FFL of the owner of the store for the receiving FFL. All firearms are shipped to the FFL with MY NAME on the invoice for ALL 6 FIREARMS even though the FFL is NOT in my name. So far I have paid for 6 firearms with my own money yet they are shipped to someone else's FFL. That is how it is done thousands of times a day in this country. Nothing illegal about this at all. Now on with the example...The 6 individuals that wanted those 6 firearms now enter the store and fill out the 4473 form. Once the NIC's check is done and handgun transfer paperwork (for Wisconsin if applicable) is done and everything is satisfactory the firearm can be "transferred" to each of these people REGARDLESS of who paid for them. If some person with extra cash is standing in front of my local gun store handing out one hundred dollar bills and I use that money to buy a gun for myself is that a straw purchase? No. Of course not. The firearm is transferred to me, not him and retained by me.

Another example which is also 100% legal. I call a firearms distributor let's say in the Shotgun News. I order an AR-15 (or whatever) and pay for it with my credit card but have it shipped to my neighbor who has an FFL. So the first transfer is from the distributor to the FFL (neighbor) but I PAID FOR IT and the invoice is in MY NAME. Legal? Absolutely! Once the FFL receives it he/she has me fill out the 4473 form and if all goes well it is then "transferred" to me.

The exact same thing is applicable for all these "gun raffles" we see from the NRA, car dealers, banks (yes, there are a few), etc....they pay for the firearm yet I receive it through a 4473 transfer. Nothing illegal about this at all. Whoever fills out the 4473 is the owner regardless of who pays for it.

By the way, I have done every example above except the "raffle" many, many times and still have the paperwork to prove it. In the gun store I worked in for every special order firearm we would have the person pay for it up front using their credit card yet the firearm was shipped to the store owners FFL. The invoice had the FFL as the legal receiver of the firearm but the invoice would be in the customer's name as the payer. Legal? Absolutely.

Oh, another example I just remembered: I bought 3 Russian M44's and 3 German K98k's using my neighbor's FFL. The firearms were purchased using my credit card but shipped to the FFL. Invoice is in my name as payer but FFL is receiver. I then fill out the 4473 forms for the rifles and pay the NIC's fee and transfer fee charged by my FFL neighbor ($25 per firearm). Legal? Absolutely. Now I decide to sell said firearms to my co-workers. I take said firearm to my FFL neighbor and he has my co-workers fill out the 4473 forms. Once the NIC's check is done and satisfactory the rifles are transferred to my co-workers. My co-workers pay the FFL holder a transfer fee of (usually) $25 each and the deal is done. Legal? Absolutely. Did they pay the FFL holder for each rifle? Nope. They paid me. This is exactly how our politicians WANT us to transfer each and every firearm to another person in a private sale....by using an FFL holder and having the 4473 form filled out and a NICs check done. To be on the safe side I usually do this when selling my firearms to someone I do not know.

No where have I said I bought a firearm, transferred it to me using the 4473 and then handed it to someone else. That would be illegal.

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Sorry Rcawdor57 but you don't own the firearm until you fill out the 4473 form and pass the NCIS check. Doesn't matter if you pay for it before or after the check. If you don't pass the NICS check the firearm is returned to the original place of purchase and it is your fight then to get your money back. Read line item 11.a. on the 4473 form again. Howmore plain can it be? If you pay for a firearm and someone else fills out the 4473 form so they can transfer ownership from the dealer to them then that is considered a gift. You mention a raffle where someone wins a firearm that has already been paid for by the organization conducting the raffle and is won by a contestant. That firearm is a gift from the association to the winner. The winner then acquires a transfer of permanent ownership from the association when and if he/she passes the NICS check. In my opinion, so far, you have been walking a fine line.

In the example of 6 firearms you were merely acting as a broker for the dealer. You never were the owner even though you paid for them. In fact you were involved in an illegal transaction because you were dealing in the multiple sales of firearms (presumably for some marginal profit) while not having a Federal Firearms license or not being listed on someone elses FFL as an agent. The only way you could have legally acted in that scenario is to have the distributor transfer the six firearms to you, have you fill out a 4473 form for each firearm and have you fill out the additional 'Multiple purchase" form. You in turn could then send the firearms to the respective FFL holders who then would have the final purchaser fill out a 4473 form transferring the firearm from you to them.

If you are not the actual buyer thedealer can not transfer the firearm to you.

Buyer -- The person that pays for the firearm.

Just because you got by with your transactions does not make them legal.

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Captain Nemo wrote:

Sorry Rcawdor57 but you don't own the firearm until you fill out the 4473 form and pass the NCIS check. Doesn't matter if you pay for it before or after the check. If you don't pass the NICS check the firearm is returned to the original place of purchase and it is your fight then to get your money back. Read line item 11.a. on the 4473 form again. Howmore plain can it be? If you pay for a firearm and someone else fills out the 4473 form so they can transfer ownership from the dealer to them then that is considered a gift. You mention a raffle where someone wins a firearm that has already been paid for by the organization conducting the raffle and is won by a contestant. That firearm is a gift from the association to the winner. The winner then acquires a transfer of permanent ownership from the association when and if he/she passes the NICS check. In my opinion, so far, you have been walking a fine line.

In the example of 6 firearms you were merely acting as a broker for the dealer. You never were the owner even though you paid for them. In fact you were involved in an illegal transaction because you were dealing in the multiple sales of firearms (presumably for some marginal profit) while not having a Federal Firearms license or not being listed on someone elses FFL as an agent. The only way you could have legally acted in that scenario is to have the distributor transfer the six firearms to you, have you fill out a 4473 form for each firearm and have you fill out the additional 'Multiple purchase" form. You in turn could then send the firearms to the respective FFL holders who then would have the final purchaser fill out a 4473 form transferring the firearm from you to them.

If you are not the actual buyer thedealer can not transfer the firearm to you.

Buyer -- The person that pays for the firearm.

Just because you got by with your transactions does not make them legal.

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Sorry Captain but you are incorrect. The 4473 form is the only form that transfers final ownership to the transferee. I can go to Shooters with my credit card and pay for any firearm in the store for anyone else. It is NOT a gift. You do not understand the rules involved with transferring ownership of a firearm. The 4473 form is used whether or not there is any money changing hands simply to get the NICs check done and legally transfer ownership. I know well what 11a states and it states such because when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun they are normally the one paying for AND filling out the 4473 form for transfer to that same person.

Buying a gun and having legal USE of it is NOT done by any document except the 4473 form and in certain cases through the Bound Book. All the examples listed are 100% legal. The 4473 form is NOT used until (normally) the final transfer of a firearm. Let me be more specific: I call Southern Ohio Gun in Ohio and order two firearms from them. I pay for it with your credit card. The firearms are shipped to let's say...Shooters using their FFL. Shooters retains legal custody of the firearm FOREVER until a 4473 form is filled out for that specific firearm. Once the background check is done the firearm is transferred to the person who filled out the 4473 form. As long as that person retains possession of that firearm it is 100% legal. No straw purchase at all.

You do NOT understand what a GIFT is under BATFE rules. A GIFT is when person"A" fills out the 4473 form (regardless of WHO pays for it) and passes the NICs check. The firearm is transferred legally to the person who filled out the 4473 form. The person who filled out the 4473 can NOW GIVE IT AWAY. That is a GIFT under the BATFE guidelines. If you happen to GIVE that firearm to someone who CANNOT legally own a firearm then THAT is a STRAW PURCHASE. Simple as that.


As for my example of 6 gun purchases it is not an illegal transaction at all. Just because I pay for it with my credit card doesn't make it illegal. It certainly isn't a multiple firearm transaction either since I do NOT have the firearms. If that were the case then every gun store would have to do what you stated every time they bought more than 2 handguns from a single distributor. The FFL holder HAS the firearms and only transfers them legally to whoever fills out the 4473 form and passes the NICs check. If no one passes the NIC's check then the FFL holder can send them back or sell them to anyone else who passes a NICs check and fills out the 4473 form. And no where in my statement did I ever say I was making any profit.

Just so you understand, I had my own FFL for many years and have attended many training seminars with the ATF agents. The question of straw purchase scenarios comes up many times because we want to be careful and not violate any rules or laws involved with firearms.

Have you ever looked in the Shotgun News for "FFL dealers in your area". There are many who will "transfer" the firearm to you. For instance, you go on GunBroker or Auction Arms and buy a gun but do not have your own FFL. You contact one of the people who will do the transfer for you and use their FFL as the receiver of your purchase. Once they receive the firearm you go to their business, fill out the 4473 form, pass the NICs check, pay them their transfer fee and receive your firearm. You can send your friend, your brother, your mother, etc...to pick up the gun as well. They would have to fill out the 4473 form and pass the NICs check. Once that is done THEY will have legally received the firearm. As long as the person who filled out and signed the 4473 form KEEPs it it is 100% legal. If they instead drop it off on a street corner in Milwaukee then that is 100% ILLEGAL AND A STRAW PURCHASE.

If my mother filled out the 4473, passed the NICs check and then GAVE me the firearm as a GIFT then that is 100% legal (as long as I am not a prohibited person) and is considered a GIFT under federal law.

Here is the way the FFL works: I get a FFL for dealing in firearms, considered a type 01 (dealer). I order firearms from several distributors to put in my store. There are NO 4473 forms involved in this AT ALL. Instead what we do is log these firearms into what is termed "A Bound Book" as specified by the BATFE. We OWN these firearms but we cannot legally USE these firearms. If I wanted to USE this firearm for my own personal use I must fill out the Bound Book in the "Disposition" column that I am now using this for myself. Now if the FFL is a corporation, and the firearm is being transferred to a corporate officer or director for other than business purposes, then a form 4473 must be executed to transfer legal possession. Now, once that firearm is transferred to me I MUST pay the sales tax on that specific firearm to the state if not already done.

Let's say I want to GIVE my firearms away to my children as I get older. If I give a firearm to one of my kids who I know to be a prohibited person then that is considered ILLEGAL even though there is NO 4473 form or any money changing hands. Now let's say I want to give YOU a firearm. You come to my house and pick out what you want. We take said firearm to let's say Gander Mountain and ask them to "transfer" legal possession from me to you. You fill out the 4473 form and pass the NIC's check. You take possession of said firearm. No money exchanged hands yet you still have the firearm. Did you violate step "11a"? Of course not. Is this considered a "GIFT"? No! Now if YOU take this firearm you just received from ME and GIVE IT TO SOMEONE ELSE. Then that IS a gift IAW BATFE.

Same thing goes when and if I transfer my firearms to my kids. Our politicians are trying to make it so we can only transfer legal ownership by using a FFL dealer and a 4473 form with NICS check even though there is NO MONEY EXCHANGED. Does that violate step "11a"? Of course not.

Several times I have paid for a firearm when I was not the person who filled out the 4473 form. At Bass Pro my sister filled out the 4473 form for her shotgun, I filled out my 4473 form for a Weatherby rifle. I PAID for both firearms with my credit card. Legal? Absolutely. She retained her shotgun, I retained my rifle. Was it a gift? No. At a gun show last year I paid for five firearms with my credit card to ONE FFL dealer. I paid for firearms for myself and a coworker because he did not have his credit card with him. Legal? Yep. He filled out the 4473 form for his guns, me for mine. He kept his, I kept mine. When my wife and I picked out our open carry guns she filled out a 4473 form for her revolver, me for my Glock. I paid for both. Legal? Yep. Gift? NO! Straw purchase? NO.

Here is EXACTLY what step 11(s) states from the BATFE website:

11. Answer questions 11.a (See exceptions) through 11.l and 12 (if applicable) by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions.
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? WARNING: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See instructions for question 11.a) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a and may proceed to question 11.b.



I have explained this way too many times. If you still do not understand then you never will.

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Post your FFL number and name we can decide who is truthin and aint.

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3-39-093-01-9E-342xx

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People still make reference to "prohibited persons" in the context of a straw purchase. A straw purchase may involve, but does not require a p.p. Let us say that I want to buy a new shotgun but won't go into the shop because the girl behind the counter is just too cute and I lose my ability to speak in front of her. I am not a p.p. I give rcawdor57 or Captain Nemo the $ and they walk into the shop, fill out the 4473 and pay the cute girl. They come out and hand me the shotgun and we go for coffee. The very definition of a straw purchase has taken place. Now can rcawdor57 claim that the shotgun was a gift? If the source of the $ never matters, why not? What if Captain Nemo is feeling extraordinarily generous and say he'll not only fill out the 4473 but pick up the tab for the shotgun as well. Straw purchase? I think so.

Incidentally, is it permitted even common to use an FFL to transfer a firearm between private parties? Unless a requirement (such as diverse residency) why do it? Do you often sell (privately) firearms to complete strangers? Does the firearm get put on the FFL books (even for a minute) as a result of such a transaction?

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rcawdor57 wrote:

I can go to Shooters with my credit card and pay for any firearm in the store for anyone else.

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So.... when are meeting to do this???

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http://www.dontlie.org/

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

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This will be my final say on he subject. I post this information from the actual forms and agencies that monitor the transactions. ( Wisconsin DoJ and ATF).

The current revision of the 4473 form is Revision August 2008. Thebuyer certificationinformation appears as line 11.a. It has already been posted on the thread.

Each time the ATF revises the 4473 form it sends a instruction sheet with the new forms to dealers. The instruction form lists the changes made to the previous version and interpretation of the change. The purchaser information on the 2002 version of the 4473 form appeared as Question 12.a. This is how the 2002 change to 12.a. from the previous version was explained by the ATF.

"Actual buyer" Question 12a asks if the person filling out the form is the "actual buyer" of the firearm(s). Important notice 1 on the previous edition stated this question was not applicable to returns of firearms, e.g. holders of pawn tickets or onsigners of firearms and therefore such transferees should answer the question as "N/A". Important notice on the new form states you are the actual buyer "if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retreiving it from consignment)." ccordingly, such transferees should now answer "yes" or "no" rather than "N/A" to question 12a. This change was made because the previous edition did not account for the fact that persons redeeming guns from pawn or consignment could be straw purchasers.

My comment. Consignment generally means from a gunsmith.

The Wisconsin DoJ also gets involved in firearm purchases if the firearm is a handgun. The DoJ is "Point of Contact" for all handgun sales to state residents. POC means that the Wisconsin DoJ performs all background checks on handgun purchases. NICS performs background checks only on long gun purchases in Wisconsin. For handgun purchases the Wisconsin DoJ requires that an additional form be filled out in addition to the 4473 form, Form DJ-LE-FH2. On that form the buyer certification is question 14.a. and reads as follows:

14. Transferee (Buyer) certification - Buyer must answer each question with a "Yes" or "No" in the box to the right of the question.

a) Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm? You are the actual purchaser if you are not purchasing the firearm at the request of, or on behalf of, any other person or are not purchasing the firearm with the purpose or intent of reselling the firearm to another person.

Farther down the form are the words. "If question 14(a) cannot be truthfully answered "Yes" the dealer may not transfer the firearm".

These are not my words or words from some other web site. They are words from the actual forms required when purchsing a firearm and words from instructions to dealers from the ATF.

I still say "use caution" the line can get pretty fine.

Also be aware if a transaction does go sour using a credit card, debit card, or personal check can lead the the feds right to your front door.

Read the information and interpretit as you wish.

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apjonas wrote:

People still make reference to "prohibited persons" in the context of a straw purchase. A straw purchase may involve, but does not require a p.p. Let us say that I want to buy a new shotgun but won't go into the shop because the girl behind the counter is just too cute and I lose my ability to speak in front of her. I am not a p.p. I give rcawdor57 or Captain Nemo the $ and they walk into the shop, fill out the 4473 and pay the cute girl. They come out and hand me the shotgun and we go for coffee. The very definition of a straw purchase has taken place. Now can rcawdor57 claim that the shotgun was a gift? If the source of the $ never matters, why not? What if Captain Nemo is feeling extraordinarily generous and say he'll not only fill out the 4473 but pick up the tab for the shotgun as well. Straw purchase? I think so.

Incidentally, is it permitted even common to use an FFL to transfer a firearm between private parties? Unless a requirement (such as diverse residency) why do it? Do you often sell (privately) firearms to complete strangers? Does the firearm get put on the FFL books (even for a minute) as a result of such a transaction?

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What you have described above is ILLEGAL and IS a straw purchase. I would NEVER do that, not in a million years and would never consider doing such in the context of a GIFT either. In the past I had co-workers ask me to do just that. Uh, NO. Why would anyone ask another person to do this? I don't know nor do I care. I won't do it. My whole point is it doesn't matter who pays for the firearm as long as the person who fills out the 4473 receives it AND KEEPS IT. Normally the person who pays for it KEEPS it too but think about it. If you pay for your wife's gun at the gun store (she did all the paperwork for the gun and passed the NICs check) and she takes possession of the gun then that is legal even though you paid for it.

Here is step 11.a again:
11. Answer questions 11.a (See exceptions) through 11.l and 12 (if applicable) by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions.
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? WARNING: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See instructions for question 11.a) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a and may proceed to question 11.b.

Notice that it states "You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person." Simply stated it means if I fill out a 4473 form for a firearm and then take said firearm and deliver it to someone else then that is illegal and is a straw purchase. Now if I take the firearm and have a FFL holder transfer it to another person using the 4473 form then that is 100% legal and is the preferred way to transfer a firearm.

As for using a FFL holder to sell my private firearms that is the ONLY way I will ever do it unless I am giving them to my adult children (That would be a "Gift"). Several people I worked with at my last job had been convicted of or plead guilty to domestic violence charges. Little did THEY know that they had lost their right to possess, own, shoot, etc...firearms until they tried to buy one at the gun store. Heck, most of us had no idea these "great people" had ANY convictions but they did. I found out by accident one day looking through the online court documents available. So my philosophy is trust no one. The last five or six rifles (never sold any handguns) I have sold I used a 01 (dealer) FFL holder to transfer the firearms. To answer your question about the Bound Book, yes, the firearm is logged into the Bound Book and logged out (Disposition) when it is sold using the 4473 to transfer it. Look at all the firearms in the "consignment racks" at your local gun store. Those are owned by private individuals yet when they are sold will be transferred to the new owner through the dealer using a 4473 form and passing the NICs checks. And all of those "consignment" firearms ARE logged into the dealer's bound book and will be logged out once sold and transferred using the 4473 unless the dealer sells them to another 01 dealer (then they are logged out or "disposed" of to another dealer in the bound book and no 4473 form is filled out.

We all know that acquiring a firearm for someone who legally cannot possess a firearm IS a straw purchase whether or not there was any money changing hands. We all know (or should know) that if we go to our favorite firearm shop and someone asks you to "buy a gun for them" because they are "shy" or whatever that that is ILLEGAL and will get you a room in prison. We should all realize that if anyone ever "borrows" a gun from you that YOU could end up in jail if that person cannot legally possess a firearm. So think twice about "loaning" a rifle or shotgun to a friend during hunting season. Heck, for that matter convicted felons and those convicted of domestic violence cannot have crossbows, bow and arrow, spear guns, etc. The list is long!

When you rent a gun at a gun store they normally do not perform a background check on you. What if you cannot legally possess a firearm yet you rented one? You, not the store, are responsible and can be prosecuted for illegal possession.

Please keep in mind that if a dealer (or an individual in a private sale) is not comfortable with the transaction then the dealer can stop the transaction no matter what. In the shop I worked in a few years back we had two "gentlemen" enter the store and amble around for a few minutes. These guys wore dirty, white tee-shirts, had greasy hair and just smelled bad. They both wanted to buy firearms and were brothers. We did NOT sell them anything and never even looked at their I.D. We asked them to leave the store. Catching a straw purchase is usually done after the firearm has changed hands and is used in a crime. Remember that if you acquire a firearm legally using the 4473 then that firearm stays with you for life unless you transfer it again using another 4473.

And the Captain is correct about ownership. If I paid for a firearm but do not pass the NIC's check or handgun check (Wisconsin??) then I do not own the firearm. I may have paid for it but I won't own it until I meet all the legal transfer requirements.

Here is another point to ponder which I do NOT know the answer: What if someone wanted to give you a firearm? You know that YOU are legal but what about them? Is it legal to take or buy a firearm from a person who cannot legally possess a firearm?

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The Milwaukee Journal Sentenal reported four hours ago that the "straw purchase" bill died in the senate due to inaction. The bill would have made a straw purchase a felony in Wisconsin instead of a misdemeanor. It is a federal felony.