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Thread: Citizen's Arrest

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    I was researching something the other day and I came across the idea of citizen's arrest. I never really thought about it before but I did follow this tangent for a bit, because, well basically that's what I do.

    This is not really directly related to firearms per say. I'm not speaking at all about open carrying while making a citizen's arrest. But since you guys (and gals) tend to be well versed in state law and would be more apt to have come across this, I'm wondering if anyone has real world experience in this?

    Is this essentially what happens when a store stops a shoplifter and holds them for police? Is there a formal process?

    No specific reason I want to know- just trying to expand my database of pointless knowledge.

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    My understanding (which could be wrong, of course), is you must know that they are committing a felony in order to do it in WI.

    Now, how you hold them would be interesting, because it's a fine line between citizen's arrest and violating a person's civil rights.

    How would you hold them?

    Keep them at gunpoint?
    Cuff them?
    Sit on their head?
    Ask them politely to stay where they are?

    The more effective ones I can see ending in a civil suit. The less effective would let them get away.

    When in public:
    The best thing, in my mind, would be to let it happen assuming there is no risk of severe bodily harm to you or those around you, and report it to the police. No sense in getting yourself hurt over something that nobody would have gotten hurt from in the first place.

    When at home:
    Hold at gunpoint and call the police, make sure the police know you are armed and have the suspect at gunpoint. Expect to be disarmed and cuffed until things are sorted out for everybody's safety.


    The #1 self defense tool is avoidance.

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    The #1 self defense tool is avoidance.

    Yep, that's where I'm at right now. Of course, I'd have to get involved if I saw something egregious, like some guy snatching a kid or something, but those types of things aren't likely to occur in my presence...

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    I believe in general in Wisconsin a citizen can make an arrest if the crime is committed in their presence. It applies to felonies AND to misdemeanors if it involves a breach of peace.

    There is an Appeals court opinion that also stated:

    "Thus, while the general rule requires a breach of the peace to be committed in the citizen's presence, an exception to the rule is that a citizen may arrest the actor if the citizen reasonably believes there is continuing danger that actor intends to repeat or resume the breach of the peace recently committed."

    Still, I wouldn't advise anyone attempt to make a citizen's arrest except under the most pressing circumstances. We pay police to do that sort of dirty work.
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    I once tackled a guy that the Milwaukee Police were chasing, I kept him in a "Full-Nelson" wrestling hold until the cop made it down to us.

    I was at work on Farwell avenue, and I heard someone running across the roof of the building I was in, I went out the door as the guy was jumping down, A cop was at the fence yelling to grab him. I chased, caught, and took the guy down.

    He was being chased because he was caught peeking in a womans window, they were looking for this guy for weeks due to his stalking & peeping history.

    I do not consider that a citizens arrest, just slowing a guy down to helpfacilitate his apprehension.

    Another time I was by Grand Avenue mall, in heavy traffic between Michigan Ave & Wisconsin Ave. and I saw a guy running away from 2 cops while handcuffed behind his back, my foot accidentally slipped off the brake pedal as he crossed in front of my car, he got caught right in front of me.

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    Shotgun wrote:
    I believe in general in Wisconsin a citizen can make an arrest if the crime is committed in their presence.¬* It applies to felonies AND to misdemeanors if it involves a breach of peace.

    There is an Appeals court opinion that also stated:

    "Thus, while the general rule requires a breach of the peace to be committed in the citizen's presence, an exception to the rule is that a citizen may arrest the actor if the citizen reasonably believes there is continuing danger that actor intends to repeat or resume the breach of the peace recently committed."

    Still, I wouldn't advise anyone attempt to make a citizen's arrest except under the most pressing circumstances.¬* We pay police to do that sort of dirty work.
    I concur. I'm not looking to get involved, just curious how it worked.

    Nutz, don't you just hate when you get those accidental foot slippages...

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Still, I wouldn't advise anyone attempt to make a citizen's arrest except under the most pressing circumstances. We pay police to do that sort of dirty work.
    Can I stand there & blow my shiny new whistle? I just feel so EMPOWERED with this thing.

    I agree with Shotgun here:

    Police are paid for this.

    They are aware of the hazards when they apply for the job in the first place.

    They APPLY for the job, not drafted/forced into the job. Their own free will.

    It is also a job I would never want. Hard to put a dollar amount on "How much would it take for you to risk your life for eight hours a night?"

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    It varies by state. In Texas, a citizen can make an arrest for any offense committed in his/her presence. In this case the citizen can deliver the actor to the magistrate.In North Carolina, there is no citizens arrest, but a citizen may detain a person while the police are called.







    .

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    Nutczak wrote:
    I once tackled a guy that the Milwaukee Police were chasing, I kept him in a "Full-Nelson" wrestling hold until the cop made it down to us.

    I was at work on Farwell avenue, and I heard someone running across the roof of the building I was in, I went out the door as the guy was jumping down, A cop was at the fence yelling to grab him. I chased, caught, and took the guy down.

    He was being chased because he was caught peeking in a womans window, they were looking for this guy for weeks due to his stalking & peeping history.

    I do not consider that a citizens arrest, just slowing a guy down to helpfacilitate his apprehension.

    Another time I was by Grand Avenue mall, in heavy traffic between Michigan Ave & Wisconsin Ave. and I saw a guy running away from 2 cops while handcuffed behind his back, my foot accidentally slipped off the brake pedal as he crossed in front of my car, he got caught right in front of me.
    A tear came to my eye, but part of it might be the soundtrack music I'm listening to right now.

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    citizens arrest = a big freeking headache for you, like someone said, that's what the police are paid for.

    Now, a bad person illegally enters my dwelling - Different story all together .

    Place call to 911 FIRST - Explain quickly & quietly that a bad person has entered your dwelling without your consent, let them know that you are in fear of your life, let dispatcher know that you are armed, lock your self into a room ( do not confront if you can help it ) remember everyone - Wisconsin has no Castle doctrine , meaning you have the duty to retreat !!! if you impulsively confront bad person & shoot him , You WILL be sued for every penny you have & you will die broke. you will be sued by the Bad guy & his Family.

    Now if you have no alternative & you are forced to protect your self / family (( NOT YOUR BELONGINGS )) , again call 911 , let dispatcher know what is taking place , place telephone down somewhere close, while still on the line with 911, Greet said bad person with Weapon ( Glock, Mossberg, AR-15, flame thrower, Baseball bat , chains, tie iron,etc. ) & with the loudest voice you have ever used in your life, scream PLEASE, DO NOT HURT ME, PLEASE DO NOT HURT ME, make it sooo loud the guy a block away can hear you. Remember it is best to have everything that is taking place inside your home recorded by 911 ( it's your insurance policy if done right ) then scream please stop, please stop , I will defend myself ..then the 911 lady hears... BANG, BANG !!! then you tell her in a very upset, frightened voice that you had no choice, he was coming at you with a weapon (( make sure he has a weapon )) if your gonna use lethal force.

    Then, once the threat has been dealt with...tell 911 lady what happened, that you have unloaded your weapon for the officers safety, you have placed it on the floor , have your ID ready to prove quickly to the officers that you do actually live there. Do as you are told, you will get cuffed & possible even spend a night downtown in a nice cell, while they investigate... >> Do your self a big favor!! SAY nothing & Lawyer up. give statement to cops when Lawyer is present.

    get your family out of the house stand in driveway wait for police, tell family to say nothing -you are getting a lawyer.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Glock34 wrote:
    remember everyone - Wisconsin has no Castle doctrine , meaning you have the duty to retreat !!!
    Simply untrue. There is no "duty to retreat" in Wisconsin. Not in your home, not on the street... not from anyplace you are legally entitled to be.


    A. Gold

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    Glock34 wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    remember everyone - Wisconsin has no Castle doctrine , meaning you have the duty to retreat !!!
    Simply untrue. There is no "duty to retreat" in Wisconsin. Not in your home, not on the street... not from anyplace you are legally entitled to be.

    OK, why don't you put that to the test sometime, let me know how it pans out for you.

    What I stated , is what is taught in the Concealed carry classes in Wisconsin for Out of state concealed carry permits, the lessons that the instructors teach are put together by gun rights Lawyers & Massad Ayoob. Are you a lawyer ?
    I doubt that any of the out-of-state permit classes teach Wisconsin statutes. They are teaching the laws of the state issuing the permit. Utah doesn't care if you know Minnesota law, Minnesota doesn't care if you learn Utah law, Florida doesn't care if your know Utah or Minnesota law, and NONE of them care if you know Wisconsin law when they issue you a permit.

    I ask you to cite the statute that makes it a duty to retreat in Wisconsin. Actually, save your time looking-- there isn't one-- and neither the "gun rights lawyers" nor Ayoob would be able to find a statute creating a duty to retreat in Wisconsin. Nor will they find a court case creating such a duty.

    The Wisconsin self-defense statute does not include a duty to retreat. That there is no duty to retreat in Wisconsin was affirmed by the Wisconsin Supreme Court in 1909 in Miller v. State. That opinion has never been reversed.

    In Wisconsin one has the legal privilege "to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person
    reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person."

    If a person uses force to prevent an unlawful interference-- and is unfortunate enough to be charged with a crime because for using force-- the jury may be instructed to consider whether there was an opportunity to retreat in determining whether the amount of force used was justified. But, contrary to all the myth circulated here and elsewhere, there is no duty to retreat from an unlawful interference in Wisconsin.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    remember everyone - Wisconsin has no Castle doctrine , meaning you have the duty to retreat !!!
    Simply untrue. There is no "duty to retreat" in Wisconsin. Not in your home, not on the street... not from anyplace you are legally entitled to be.

    OK, why don't you put that to the test sometime, let me know how it pans out for you.

    What I stated , is what is taught in the Concealed carry classes in Wisconsin for Out of state concealed carry permits, the lessons that the instructors teach are put together by gun rights Lawyers & Massad Ayoob. Are you a lawyer ?
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Glock34 wrote:
    Shotgun wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    remember everyone - Wisconsin has no Castle doctrine , meaning you have the duty to retreat !!!
    Simply untrue. There is no "duty to retreat" in Wisconsin. Not in your home, not on the street... not from anyplace you are legally entitled to be.

    OK, why don't you put that to the test sometime, let me know how it pans out for you.

    What I stated , is what is taught in the Concealed carry classes in Wisconsin for Out of state concealed carry permits, the lessons that the instructors teach are put together by gun rights Lawyers & Massad Ayoob. Are you a lawyer ?
    There is no duty to retreat in WI, you can go here http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0939.pdfto verify.

    I have sttod my ground and defended myself against an attacker, If I was not protected under 939.48, I would have probably been charged and prosecuted for aggravated battery with a weapon.

    I would start reading at 939.48 and continue through 939.49 and beyond to look at all reasonable situations.

    I copied the paragraphs below from the link I provided.

    939.48 Self‚ąídefense and defense of others. (1)
    A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

    (2)
    Provocation affects the privilege of self‚ąídefense as follows:

    (a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self‚ąídefense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self‚ąídefense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person‚Äôs assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.

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    i give up , what ever.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    There may be no duty to retreat, but you can't just shoot somebody for entering your home.

    Besides, the first reaction when threatened SHOULD be to retreat, separate, and avoid. Anything before that could be considered more aggressive than "the least amount of force necessary".

    Just my opinion.

    ETA:

    If nothing else, you should be taking a step away from the threat while drawing.

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    Given that we seem to be going a little hypothetical here.....

    You live in a trailer home. The door into the home is in the center. Fire escape exists at each end. You have bedrooms on both ends of the trailer. You children sleeping in one, you wife in the other. You are in the living/kitchen area when the "goblin" comes through the door. Retreat in either direction leaves at least one of your family member indefensible.


    So there it is, what do you do now? How do you retreat?

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    bnhcomputing wrote:
    Given that we seem to be going a little hypothetical here.....

    You live in a trailer home. The door into the home is in the center. Fire escape exists at each end. You have bedrooms on both ends of the trailer. You children sleeping in one, you wife in the other. You are in the living/kitchen area when the "goblin" comes through the door. Retreat in either direction leaves at least one of your family member indefensible.


    So there it is, what do you do now? How do you retreat?
    this is a very good senario....in this case, attack the scum bag ...their is no other alternative.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    bnhcomputing wrote:
    Given that we seem to be going a little hypothetical here.....

    You live in a trailer home.¬* The door into the home is in the center.¬* Fire escape exists at each end.¬* You have bedrooms on both ends of the trailer.¬* You children sleeping in one, you wife in the other.¬* You are in the living/kitchen area when the "goblin" comes through the door.¬* Retreat in either direction leaves at least one of your family member indefensible.


    So there it is, what do you do now?¬* How do you retreat?

    Um, given that it's a hypothetical, am I also to assume I like my wife?

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    bnhcomputing wrote:
    Given that we seem to be going a little hypothetical here.....

    You live in a trailer home. The door into the home is in the center. Fire escape exists at each end. You have bedrooms on both ends of the trailer. You children sleeping in one, you wife in the other. You are in the living/kitchen area when the "goblin" comes through the door. Retreat in either direction leaves at least one of your family member indefensible.


    So there it is, what do you do now? How do you retreat?
    Is a trailer home considered a mode of transportation? Perhaps you'd need to go outside to unlock your firearm from the "trunk" first? lol :P

    Completely joking here of course....

    On a serious note, you're not in bed with your wife at that moment, my guess is because you're sleeping on the couch for something you did wrong...sacrifice the wife...you can marry another, your kids are blood.

    Ok, maybe joking on that one too, maybe...hehe :celebrate

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    Glock34 wrote:
    then scream please stop, please stop , I will defend myself ..then the 911 lady hears... BANG, BANG !!! then you tell her in a very upset, frightened voice that you had no choice, he was coming at you with a weapon (( make sure he has a weapon )) if your gonna use lethal force.

    Bang Bang? You wasted 2 rounds on him? Plus I didn't know chains went bang bang?

    Oh wait, that wasn't the point of the story here? :celebrate:P

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    gollbladder13 wrote:
    There may be no duty to retreat, but you can't just shoot somebody for entering your home.
    True, but hopefully that will change when we get a solid castle doctrine in WI.
    Besides, the first reaction when threatened SHOULD be to retreat, separate, and avoid. Anything before that could be considered more aggressive than "the least amount of force necessary".

    "The least amount of force necessary"
    What exactly would be the least amount of force necessary?
    should you first try to stop the threat with a .22LR target-pistol instead of the .357Mag?
    Or if you see the intruder has a knife, would you try to counter with a knife instead of a gun?

    If someone would be stupid enough to break into my home with the intent to injure or kill any of us, I would come at them with everything I had first and foremost toneutralize that threat by any means possible. I am not going to contemplate what the city attorney might consider excessive force in a situation where the sanctity of my home (castle) has been violated.

    Do you honestly think any jury would send you to jail for defending your family against an attacker because you gun was a larger caliber then the attacker had with them?

    lets review the current laws on use of force again;
    939.48 Self‚ąídefense and defense of others. (1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.
    Nowhere does it state that you cannot use a gun against a person weilding a baseball bat, screwdriver, knife or whatever else the decided to use an offensive weapon.
    The law only requires me to believe that my life or health is in danger before ending that intruders life by any means I have available.


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    icepik wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    then scream please stop, please stop , I will defend myself ..then the 911 lady hears... BANG, BANG !!! then you tell her in a very upset, frightened voice that you had no choice, he was coming at you with a weapon (( make sure he has a weapon )) if your gonna use lethal force.

    Bang Bang? You wasted 2 rounds on him? Plus I didn't know chains went bang bang?

    Oh wait, that wasn't the point of the story here? :celebrate:P
    ever go to the Lime Kiln park ? on the Milwaukee river nice place, been there many times. Cedarburg is a nice little town too nice little shops. My Grandmother lived there for 50 years so i spent many a summer there.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Glock34 wrote:
    icepik wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    then scream please stop, please stop , I will defend myself ..then the 911 lady hears... BANG, BANG !!! then you tell her in a very upset, frightened voice that you had no choice, he was coming at you with a weapon (( make sure he has a weapon )) if your gonna use lethal force.

    Bang Bang? You wasted 2 rounds on him? Plus I didn't know chains went bang bang?

    Oh wait, that wasn't the point of the story here? :celebrate:P
    ever go to the Lime Kiln park ? on the Milwaukee river nice place, been there many times. Cedarburg is a nice little town too nice little shops. My Grandmother lived there for 50 years so i spent many a summer there.
    Been to Lime Kiln many times. I like the disc golf course there.

    I own a shop in downtown Cedarburg right now. Very nice little town.

    The whole area is nice. I grew up in Milwaukee & West Allis. It's nice to be out here where it's a little quieter.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    icepik wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    icepik wrote:
    Glock34 wrote:
    then scream please stop, please stop , I will defend myself ..then the 911 lady hears... BANG, BANG !!! then you tell her in a very upset, frightened voice that you had no choice, he was coming at you with a weapon (( make sure he has a weapon )) if your gonna use lethal force.

    Bang Bang? You wasted 2 rounds on him? Plus I didn't know chains went bang bang?

    Oh wait, that wasn't the point of the story here? :celebrate:P
    ever go to the Lime Kiln park ? on the Milwaukee river nice place, been there many times. Cedarburg is a nice little town too nice little shops. My Grandmother lived there for 50 years so i spent many a summer there.
    Been to Lime Kiln many times. I like the disc golf course there.

    I own a shop in downtown Cedarburg right now. Very nice little town.

    The whole area is nice. I grew up in Milwaukee & West Allis. It's nice to be out here where it's a little quieter.
    What the name of your shop & what do you sell ? I will have to make a point of swinging in there this summer. I like the park in Grafton , the one with the pavillion on the Milwaukee river, they have the best fireworks show in the state on the 4th of July. I once worked for the fireworks company that puts the show on, Bartolotta Fireworks.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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