Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 41

Thread: Letter to coach and local business

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    Today I was OC while dropping off my son at a gymnastics meet and had the coach ask me to put my gun in the car. Apparently another parent had complained to him. We spoke very briefly and then I left. When I picked him up 2 hours later, I left the following letter with the coach. I know it's long, but hoped forum members might offer suggestions on how I could have improved things (or perhaps thought parts might be useful as a template for others in similar situations):

    "I'm sorry that someone put you in the middle of a situation that left you feeling uncomfortable. It seemed that you were also not at ease talking with me (although it very well could have just been everything else going on that needed your attention). I decided to write this up so you could read it at your leisure and hopefully be more comfortable with the situation.

    My first suggestion to you is that in the future you need not feel obligated to personally deal with this at all. I don't know who complained to you, but in your position my response would have been: "NDG current policy is to follow state law which allows for open carry of a firearm." If needed, you could also tell them: "I know Bryan and if you have further concerns I'd suggest you speak with him directly. He's a nice guy and I'm sure he would be happy to talk with you." This response completely removes you from the situation (as it should) and allows the person complaining to either take their fears to me (ideally), or optionally to the owner of NDG.

    Assuming the person who lodged the complaint was thinking rationally, the only logical conclusion is that they thought I was in violation of some NDG policy (If they though I was in violation of some law, the only appropriate thing for them to do would be to call the police). You made it clear to me that no such policy exists, so it should have been an easy thing to respond to this person. As an example, suppose I come up and told you that I was offended by someone's t-shirt. Presumably you would not feel compelled to go and ask that person to change his shirt. Instead, you would tell me to take care of it myself (and likely resent, with good cause, my attempt to avoid confrontation by placing the burden on you).

    Private property law allows any business owner to set policies for their establishment and ask people to leave for essentially any reason (excepting those things protected against discrimination such as age, sex, race, etc.) Almost all businesses have wisely chosen not to discriminate against gun owners and instead just follow Utah law. This absolves them of the potential liabilities, and negative public relations problems associated with choosing to discriminate. Should NDG choose to adopt such an anti-gun stance, they would be the exception not the rule. I openly carry to my children's school, my bank, shopping, restaurants, airport to pickup people, etc.

    To address a few other points. You asked me why I carried a gun (and if I felt unsafe at NDG). You also made it a point to say that "there are children here" (it was unclear to me if this was your own concern, or you were simply repeating the stated concern of the person who complained).

    In response to your explicitly stated questions (and those implied), first: I carry a gun for defense; to protect myself and those around me. You will notice that this is precisely the same reason that police officers carry a weapon (which is why I asked you if you would be uncomfortable with an officer carrying a weapon at NDG).

    Second, your question about if I felt unsafe at NDG implied that it would only be reasonable to carry a gun if I expected to be assaulted. My personal life experience and training has led me to conclude that we cannot predict when trouble will find us. I stopped trying to guess if I might need a weapon each day long ago and simply chose to make it part of my daily wardrobe. People minding their own business and quietly shopping at Trolley square did not wake up thinking that "someone might try and shoot me today". On a more personal level, I have had people close to me violently attacked without provocation in places that they had assumed to be "safe". In short, I don't choose when to carry my gun any more than I choose when to wear my seat belt based on how likely I think it is that I might get into an accident while driving that particular time. Interestingly, most law enforcement and security personnel are required to carry at all times instead of picking and choosing for the same reasons.

    Finally, I'd like to strongly contest the idea that children being present is a valid reason for me not to carry a weapon. The implication here is that I am in some way endangering children. I resent this, and assert that the exact opposite is true (that they are more safe not less). This thought shows an ignorance of guns at least, and potentially an irrational fear of guns. Safety is of the utmost concern to me. To that end, I carry a well maintained modern gun with many safety features. I carry it in a retentive holster at all times to ensure no chance of accidental discharge. Furthermore, in the extremely unlikely event that I would need to draw the weapon in defense of myself or another, I have undergone extensive training at great time and expense to ensure that I can do so with proficiency. Assuming they were willing to follow similar safety procedures, I would be very appreciative if all adults around my children (such as their teachers) would also carry a gun. I have already entrusted these people with the safety of my children. They certainly don't need a gun to harm my children if they chose to, and a gun might enable them to effectively defend them if necessary. Some of the terrible school shootings in recent years could have been stopped far more quickly if each teacher had a gun...

    The Constitutional "right to bear arms" provides the means to protect myself and those I care for. Our collective safety is more important than someone's "right to feel at ease". I respect both you and your feelings. After you have had a chance to think over these things, I'd like to talk with you in person and address any further concerns you might have."


    PS. This is Leeland, but I can't get the password on my proper account to reset for some reason. email never arrives...

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    8

    Post imported post

    That was very well stated. How did he respond?

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    NormanXDm wrote:
    That was very well stated. How did he respond?
    I plan to sit down and talk with him on Monday when I go back in. I'll post if anything significant occurs. Hopefully OC at the facility will be a non-issue in the future.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    317

    Post imported post

    I agree, very well stated. It will be interesting to hear what he says in response to your letter.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    I have run Indoor Soccer Leagues for the last 8 years. As the owner I choose not to OC, in fact I deep CC, or have it in a bag close to my desk. If you or any one else came in my place I would be fine with it, if I had a complaint I would vouch for you and that you are "safe", then I would let them know if you got out of line I personally would"take care of you!"

    Seriously,I would say the guy is cool and if heget upset about a game and gets out of line I will ask him to leave, but itisok for him to OC in my place. Now if 100 people complained, their money ismore then yours, and it is all about the money my brother.

    One day I hadd mybellybandholster onand my shirt gotcaught up on myfirearm (XD40SC) and I was OCing and I was checking in new teams for the upcoming league, and no one said anything, and none of these looks :what::shock:nothing, I realzied it about a half an hour later myself.

    At the end of my last session I posted my CFP-NRA Pistol Training website link on my indoor soccer website, I have not gotten a negative email or any nasty comments. I did this now because I am done running indoor leagues, and I figured if I can get a few people interested in Firearms before I am done with indoor soccer all the better! :celebrate

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    packingmama wrote:
    I agree, very well stated. It will be interesting to hear what he says in response to your letter.
    Well, the facility is now covered (every door, every wall, etc.) with these new signs.

    The coach told me he shared the letter with the manager. The manager told me she called the owner. The owner put up the signs.

    Not sure if the owner read the letter (probably not). I'll get a face-to-face meeting with the owner setup and see if I can have him elaborate on his concerns. No idea at this point if he is motivated by some personal anti-gun phobia, or if it is simply a matter of he fears revenue loss from whomever complained. I'll be interested to know if his intent is to ban all OC (for example police officers). I'll also ask if his intent is to ban CC.

    This place is not in the best area, and since my kid takes private lessons and is there late 8-9pm with just him and the coach, I hate to see "defenseless/unarmed victims zone" posters everywhere...

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    Quick update. Tonight I showed up to pickup my kid and all the signs had been pulled down. I talked with the manager (nice lady) and asked her if some new policy had been adopted. She said that she had pulled them all down because of all the awkward questions she was getting. Apparently a few others were upset because they CC and wanted clarification but most of the questions were more along the lines of: "Did a child bring a gun to class?" "Is this a dangerous area?" "Were you robbed?", etc.

    Some of those questions really make me wonder about the critical thinking skills of those asking the questions. <sarcasm> "Um yeah, this is a dangerous area and we were recently robbed. We put up the signs to make sure that if it happens again, the criminal doesn't bring a gun with him."</sarcasm>

    Apparently the owner rarely comes in and they have been unwilling to give me his direct contact info so far. I'll leave a letter for him with my contact info and encouragement to call me.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    I left a letter for the owner. For this post I cut the intro part where I explained to him the situation. This was the meat of it:


    ...snip...
    As the owner of NDG, you have every right under current Utah law to choose to discriminate against gun owners. If you do choose to have a policy prohibiting firearms then I will respect that right. I will then be forced to choose whether I wish to continue attending NDG or take my business elsewhere. However, it is my hope that together we can come to a workable compromise.

    Since I have not had the pleasure of speaking with you, I do not know the extent or even the nature of your concerns. My concerns are simple enough, namely my safety and the safety of those around me. I come to NDG a minimum of four days a week and on two of those nights I am there until around 9pm (private lessons). According to the latest published numbers Layton has BY FAR the highest rate of violent crime of all areas in Davis County http://www.justice.utah.gov/research...unty/davis.htm
    I spend most of my time either at work in West Bountiful or home in Kaysville. When I go to NDG I am between 6 to 13 times more likely to be involved in a violent crime. As I walk back to the dark back corner of your parking lot late at night is it really your intent that I have no means to protect myself and my son? If you disarm your customers and heaven forbid they are assaulted, is it your intent to accept the civil liability?


    Is it your intent that a uniformed police officer openly carrying a gun would not be allowed on your property?

    Is it your intent that an off-duty police officer with a concealed weapon would not be welcome?

    Is it your intent that a law-abiding civilian with a concealed weapon permit legally carrying a concealed weapon would not be welcome?

    Is it your intent that parent's cannot have a gun locked in their car if they park in your lot?


    The only place I routinely go where my gun is not welcome is the Post Office (Federal law prohibits it and so I leave it in the car). The majority of Utah business owners have chosen to be gun friendly so long as no laws are being broken and it is done in a safe manner. If someone were acting in an unsafe manner, I would be the first to approach them and speak with them about their actions. At no time has my gun presented a danger to anyone and I would be happy to talk with you about the safety precautions that I follow. I understand that some people have a fear of guns and are uncomfortable around them, but it is my hope that NDG will value the true safety of its patrons above the potential unease of these few.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    This is a typical liberal knee-jerk reaction, not even thinking about what people would think about the business.

    Now the parents feel unsafe giving the area and now they are worried when they shouldn't be. Great well done landlord.



  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brigham City, Utah, USA
    Posts
    4

    Post imported post

    Good Job. Very well stated. I would hope I was as articalate as you.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1

    Post imported post

    I would have to agree with what was stated in the letter. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why you carry and the importance of be adequately trained and proficient with your firearm. I also understand why someone would feel uncomfortable seeing a person carrying open. I even look at a person twice when I see someone carrying open. Unless you personally know the individual you real don’t know the person true intent this is why I recommend people carry canceled, although, like you, I try to educate the general public.

    Gunsellers.com

    8520 South 1300 East

    Sandy, Utah 84094

    (801) 486-2727

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Payson, Utah, USA
    Posts
    1,146

    Post imported post

    "No Firearms Permitted ON Property" to me, this means, do not drop your gun on their property... the firearm is ON your person! :P

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Kaysville, Utah, USA
    Posts
    75

    Post imported post

    I love the fact that you took action. Most people would just quit patronizing the establishment. I'm on your side and hope everything gets ironed out. You did not try to pursued him by falsifying facts however, the first letter was written in 2 hours right after a heated argument and written with which I consider too much emotion and feelings. It seemed like you were trying to answer all his questions and then stick it in his face because you knew you were right. Very hard to win an argument like that even when you are right. I always sleep on something like that especially if my children are involved and can be effected by the outcome. Thanks for the post and with each letter written another person is educated and our approach improves.
    -banki-

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    ichigo wrote:
    I love the fact that you took action. ...snip... the first letter was written in 2 hours right after a heated argument and written with which I consider too much emotion and feelings. It seemed like you were trying to answer all his questions and then stick it in his face because you knew you were right....snip...
    This is exactly the sort of feedback that I was hoping for. I wouldn't have noticed this without someone pointing it out. I really wanted to try and present my position quickly because I knew that they would be making decisions and acting, but I think you're right. If I have a similar situation I think I'll give it at least over night.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    Very well-handled, in all respects. I can't think of a single thing you could have done better. I can only hope that I would have done as well.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    Today I discovered the source of opposition (i.e. the original parent that complained to management). It became pretty obvious when the mother of one of the kids from our gym came up to me at the meet today, face white with anger, and started yelling at me: "You have THAT again!? I can't believe how STUPID you are! You have no right to scare everyone! You can't EXPOSE that! Do I have to REPORT you everywhere!"

    Here I am standing in a crowd of people holding my child and this woman is just laying into me. I very calmly said: "I'm sorry that my gun bothers you. What I am doing is both legal and safe."

    If anything, she just got angrier. She said that it was: "all just so WRONG" and that she would "check into it". I told her that if she felt I was breaking some law I encouraged her to research it but that I could assure her everything was fine. At that point she blurts out that: "EVERYONE HATES YOU!" I wasn't sure whether to be angry or laugh, so I told her that in the 2 hours I had already been at the meet (she had just arrived) that 6 different people had spoken to me and expressed their appreciation for me carrying a weapon (which was true). She stormed away.

    To her credit, some time later when she had cooled down a bit she approached me again and I had a more useful conversation with her. She said that she had talked with her husband, who is a police officer, and that she knew it was "technically legal". Then she said: "There are children here. Certainly you wouldn't try to carry a gun into your children's school!" She seemed genuinely surprised when I told her that I routinely open carried a gun when picking up a child or going to parent teacher conference.

    Ultimately, her argument boiled down to: "That kind of behavior reflects badly on our team." and that I was an embarrassment to her. She suggested that the team should more or less vote to decide if I could do this. :shock:

    I told her that I was sorry she didn't approve of my behavior, but that I wasn't about to run my life by popular vote.


  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    stephenblogger@gmail.com wrote:
    I would have to agree with what was stated in the letter. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why you carry and the importance of be adequately trained and proficient with your firearm. I also understand why someone would feel uncomfortable seeing a person carrying open. I even look at a person twice when I see someone carrying open. Unless you personally know the individual you real don’t know the person true intent this is why I recommend people carry canceled, although, like you, I try to educate the general public.
    Huh!?!

    I've been around all sorts of armed people. I've never worried abouttheir "true intent", just as I don't worry aboutthe "true intent" of people who might be armed with a concealed weapon.

    I don't have to know their true intent.All I need to know is that they are another human being who, as such, deserves the basic human right of self-defense. Until they manifest some indication that theymighthavea harmful intent, I'm not going to worry about it.

    If they show somepossible criminal intent, then I'll treat themthe same as I would any other possible criminal, by going to Condition Orange.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Leelando wrote:
    Today I discovered the source of opposition (i.e. the original parent that complained to management).
    I'm no legal expert, but wouldn't her behaviorbedisorderly conduct?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Kaysville, Utah, USA
    Posts
    75

    Post imported post

    Leelando wrote:
    To her credit, some time later when she had cooled down a bit she approached me again and I had a more useful conversation with her. She said that she had talked with her husband, who is a police officer, and that she knew it was "technically legal".
    Nice, I'm glad she was able to clear you through her husband...step 1. Now you move on to step 2 and bring her cookies at the next meet with a thank you note attached to it thanking her for her husbands police service and her interest in why you open carry. Step 3 continue to carry and never back down. Maybe that isn't the best approach but hey cookies are always good...unless you are a gymnast.
    No one was injured, no police showed up, you kept a cool head, she was educated by her husband, sounds like a win win. The only down side is you were being called names at your child's meet by another parent. I would complain to the coach and say "her kind of behavior reflects badly on our team"

    -banki-

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Firestone, Colorado
    Posts
    1,189

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    Leelando wrote:
    Today I discovered the source of opposition (i.e. the original parent that complained to management).
    I'm no legal expert, but wouldn't her behaviorbedisorderly conduct?
    Not under Utah's law, I don't think.

    Her behavior certainly meets the "makes unreasonable noises in a public place" part of the statute but I think it fails on "intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof". The intent to cause harm was lacking, because she was (she thought) trying to help.

    I find it very interesting that she's a police officer's wife. Surely she doesn't object to her husband carrying a firearm in public, as he does every day. I wonder if the real issue is that it offends her sense of privilege -- her husband is "special" enough to be allowed to carry openly, but Leelando is not.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Stansbury, Utah, USA
    Posts
    7

    Post imported post

    I think overprotective mother syndrome. A symptom of which being the following thinking error:

    1. Guns in unknown hands.
    2. My kids.
    3. Therefore, my kids dead.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Davis County, ,
    Posts
    90

    Post imported post

    swillden wrote:
    I wonder if the real issue is that it offends her sense of privilege -- her husband is "special" enough to be allowed to carry openly, but Leelando is not.
    She did make other comments during our discussion to support this idea. In context with the "technically legal" statement, she said that only law enforcement and military have the "real right" to OC. Although I obviously disagree with these ideas, I did not press her on these as I was making great efforts to minimize the confrontation.

    I understood that she felt it was only morally acceptable for a select few to OC.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Grantsville, Utah, USA
    Posts
    124

    Post imported post

    I wonder if the real issue is that it offends her sense of privilege -- her husband is "special" enough to be allowed to carry openly, but Leelando is not.
    I would be inclined to agree with this statement.

  24. #24
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Leeland, post as either Leeland or Leelando.

    Geesh guy, making it look like yer two people. :P

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    23

    Post imported post

    thx997303 wrote:
    Leeland, post as either Leeland or Leelando.
    very sorry. I'm working to resolve the problem.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •