Letter to coach and local business

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I think overprotective mother syndrome. A symptom of which being the following thinking error:

1. Guns in unknown hands.
2. My kids.
3. Therefore, my kids dead.

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swillden wrote:

I wonder if the real issue is that it offends her sense of privilege -- her husband is "special" enough to be allowed to carry openly, but Leelando is not.

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She did make other comments during our discussion to support this idea. In context with the "technically legal" statement, she said that only law enforcement and military have the "real right" to OC. Although I obviously disagree with these ideas, I did not press her on these as I was making great efforts to minimize the confrontation.

I understood that she felt it was only morally acceptable for a select few to OC.

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I wonder if the real issue is that it offends her sense of privilege -- her husband is "special" enough to be allowed to carry openly, but Leelando is not.

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I would be inclined to agree with this statement.

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Leeland, post as either Leeland or Leelando.

Geesh guy, making it look like yer two people.

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thx997303 wrote:

Leeland, post as either Leeland or Leelando.

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very sorry. I'm working to resolve the problem.

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So things took an interesting twist. The coach decided that he did not want to deal with this woman anymore (apparently she hammered on him after the meet). He says that he personally is not anti-gun, and that he is just trying to avoid "controversy".

His decision was that if I was seen OC'ing at their gym, or any other event or location where the team was, that he would kick my kid off the team (and this was his compromise!) His initial statement to me was that I needed to leave my gun home (i.e. no CC would be allowed) even though he indicated at the same time that the owner of NDG would not be enacting a policy of no guns.

An owner or manager setting policy for their business I can understand and deal with. Unfortunately in this case, policy is being set by a gun phobic mother with a personal axe to grind running roughshod over management too afraid to tell her no.

It honestly never occurred to me that he might try to use my child as leverage against me to enforce a no OC rule at every venue where they meet. I tried to argue that he had no right to set policy for other businesses. He said that he didn't care where it happened because the effect was the same for him (i.e. this woman going ballistic on him).

What happens if a friend or family member who also OC's visits a meet. Will this woman assume that I must have "put them up to it" and demand my kid be kicked off. What's next, a rule that says if some other random person is seen at an event OC'ing that my kid is kicked off the team.

I'm pretty pissed at the moment.

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That sucks.

You mentioned that several other parents had approached you and expressed their appreciation for your carry. Perhaps you could approach them and ask them to express their opinion to the coach? Both of your carry and her response. And the coach's response, for that matter.

Or if you wanted to stoop to her level, you could find out what PD her husband works for and file a complaint, saying that she was using her husband's position to intimidate people into trampling your rights under color of law. She certainly used it with you, so I'm sure she used it with the coach as well. It wouldn't actually carry any weight, but it would embarrass him and might get him to ask her to back off.

That second approach is very distasteful, but it occurs to me that it's not unlikely that this is a pattern of behavior with her, and you might be doing everyone around her a favor by getting her husband to rein her in.

Assuming you don't want your kid off the team, the other thing you should probably do for a while is wear a cover garment. Bonus points if it absolutely covers the firearm, but yet makes it completely obvious that you're carrying <evil grin>.

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I would find out who the owner is and complain.

One person should not trample your rights especially with her husband being exempted.

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It would seem to me that they are Discriminating against you and your son for somthing some one else doesnt like.

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I have been watching this thread and have to make a comment.

You now have a great opportunity now to take this anti gun person and turn her into a friend. By all means do what it takes make her happy bring her a plate of cookies or do something nice.

The reason for this would be it would reflect kindly on the gun community and reflect nicely on her family and kids and show her husband that you are the good guy. It could affect how he deals with openly carried firearms in the future.

It may be a great turning point for her. Her biggest issue is fear she does not understand the laws and has been conditioned that guns are bad. Her husband being a police officer only accelerates her fear of guns because that is how police officers usually get shot.

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

I have been watching this thread and have to make a comment.

You now have a great opportunity now to take this anti gun person and turn her into a friend. By all means do what it takes make her happy bring her a plate of cookies or do something nice.

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That would be awesome if it worked. Much better than my suggestion (though they aren't mutually exclusive).

Perhaps ask her for a sitdown with her and her husband, to talk through the issues?

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Leelando wrote:

So things took an interesting twist. The coach decided that he did not want to deal with this woman anymore (apparently she hammered on him after the meet). He says that he personally is not anti-gun, and that he is just trying to avoid "controversy".

His decision was that if I was seen OC'ing at their gym, or any other event or location where the team was, that he would kick my kid off the team (and this was his compromise!) His initial statement to me was that I needed to leave my gun home (i.e. no CC would be allowed) even though he indicated at the same time that the owner of NDG would not be enacting a policy of no guns.

An owner or manager setting policy for their business I can understand and deal with. Unfortunately in this case, policy is being set by a gun phobic mother with a personal axe to grind running roughshod over management too afraid to tell her no.

It honestly never occurred to me that he might try to use my child as leverage against me to enforce a no OC rule at every venue where they meet. I tried to argue that he had no right to set policy for other businesses. He said that he didn't care where it happened because the effect was the same for him (i.e. this woman going ballistic on him).

What happens if a friend or family member who also OC's visits a meet. Will this woman assume that I must have "put them up to it" and demand my kid be kicked off. What's next, a rule that says if some other random person is seen at an event OC'ing that my kid is kicked off the team.

I'm pretty pissed at the moment.

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The squeaky wheel got oiled. Seems her squeak was louder than yours. Wish there was some way we could help. This coach made a decision to fire one of his customers. He chose to fire the one who most likely would not leave. That would be you.
Using a child as a defensive pawn is unacceptable to me. On that alone I would take some kind of action. It doesn't matter what you do at this point because a line has been drawn. Whether you are carrying or not, your presence is now adversarial. You will feel uncomfortable, the coach will feel uncomfortable, the squawker will feel uncomfortable and your kid will see the awkwardness. The coach is a douche and my hope is that you and squawker will take your business elsewhere and contact the BBB.
-banki-

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I too have been watching this and I am just :cuss:

I understand that you have to do what you have to do for your kids. We all do what we have to. I think it is crap that this lady has been able to trump you with the coach.

I thought I read in the thread that this was in Layton? If so I live in Layton and have a 4 year old grandson that needs to look into getting involved in a program like your kid is in. Of course I would need to take him in for a visit and see if it is something that would entertain him, and of course I would proudly be open carrying my G30 in all her glory. I wounder what time of day your buddy would be there to pick up her kid?

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Quick update:

• The owner of the business called me last night (he has been abroad traveling for most of the time this has been going on). He officially enacted a policy of OC=no CC=fine on his property.
• I'll be taking the suggestion of those wiser than I and bringing a note and cookies to the meet this Sat.
• I'm still in communication with the coach and hopeful that he will change his stance. The following is a excerpt from a letter that I left at the gym for him yesterday:

"...I strongly disagree with the idea of you enforcing what I can do on someone else's property (under threat of my son being thrown out of your program). You certainly have no legal right to do this, and I'd argue you have no moral right either. If this woman feels offended by my actions, she has every right to approach the owner of whatever establishment she finds herself in and express those concerns. They in turn can exercise their rights as private property owners to set whatever policies they want. I don't think you'd try to tell me what I can do in my own home, and I'm shocked that you feel good about telling me what you will allow me to do on other people's property. Given your assurance that you don't have a problem personally, this means that you are willing to let her bully you into attacking the rights granted to me under the US Constitution, The Utah State Constitution, and Utah State law. Here in Utah, our legislature felt so strongly about this issue that they made it illegal for any local authority or state entity to limit this particular freedom (http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getCodeSection?code=53-5a-102). My association with many gun advocacy groups allows me to routinely discuss the many controversial issues surrounding gun ownership, but in all my years of interaction, I can say that your stance is unprecedented and I urge you to reconsider. Given the value I place on my son's continued involvement in your program, you really don't give me any choice but to do as you say. I only hope that you will choose to take a stand and not allow this woman to pressure you into acting in this way. I know full well that this is not the easy path for you to take, but I hope you will ultimately decide that it is the morally right thing to do..."

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Kind of curious, but what are the laws in the state of Utah regarding Coercion and Duress? because that is exactly whats going on here... The coach is doing it to you, and the lady is obviously doing it to the coach...

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stephenblogger@gmail.com wrote:

I would have to agree with what was stated in the letter. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why you carry and the importance of be adequately trained and proficient with your firearm. I also understand why someone would feel uncomfortable seeing a person carrying open. I even look at a person twice when I see someone carrying open. Unless you personally know the individual you real don’t know the person true intent this is why I recommend people carry canceled, although, like you, I try to educate the general public.

Gunsellers.com

8520 South 1300 East

Sandy, Utah 84094

(801) 486-2727

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I just want to thank you for posting this to help me know gun businesses to avoid because they only pretend to support the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

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rpyne wrote:

stephenblogger@gmail.com wrote:

I would have to agree with what was stated in the letter. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why you carry and the importance of be adequately trained and proficient with your firearm. I also understand why someone would feel uncomfortable seeing a person carrying open. I even look at a person twice when I see someone carrying open. Unless you personally know the individual you real don’t know the person true intent this is why I recommend people carry canceled, although, like you, I try to educate the general public.

Gunsellers.com

8520 South 1300 East

Sandy, Utah 84094

(801) 486-2727

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I just want to thank you for posting this to help me know gun businesses to avoid because they only pretend to support the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

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:shock: Oh snap!

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I had a positive experience today related to this ongoing saga. Last meet (not our gym) I wore a jacket while walking in, took it off when I sat down (so OC but discretely), then jacket again when leaving. Apparently everyone goes out of their way to check and see if "that guy still has a gun" because a disproportionate number of people noticed my brief and discrete OC.

Today's meet was the state one and held at Hillcrest High School, so I decided it was a great place to go full OC. Near the end of the meet I got up to let my restless 2yr old walk around and was approached by a guy. The conversation started pretty confrontationally. His opening comments were along the lines of:

Him: "I need to talk to you. I'm very angry and think that what you are doing with that thing is very inappropriate! There are children here and if it wasn't for the trouble I'd get into, I'd beat the crap out of you for what you're doing! I think that other people are upset too, but I'm the only one who has the balls to tell you."

Me: "I'm very sorry that I've upset you, that certainly wasn't my intent. I'd love a chance to talk with you for a minute about your concerns. Can you please tell me more about what's making you mad?"

Him: "There are kids here and I don't want them getting hurt. It's not the wild west, and you shouldn't have a gun in here! Is that even legal?"

Me: "Boy, if I though that someone was endangering my kids, I'd be mad too. The fact that you're willing to take personal action and talk to me really speaks highly of your character. I think I like you already! To answer your questions, yes it is legal, but more importantly let me tell you about why I carry and all the things I do to make sure that it is as safe as possible..."


After having to deal with more and more of these worried parent encounters, I've given a lot of thought of how to diffuse things quickly. It was amazing to see this guy turn around. We had a wonderful conversation for about 20 minutes where he expressed each of his concerns and I got to explain. A highlight was when I said: "There are almost certainly many guns in this room (speaking about CC stats)" at which point a guy that was nearby whom neither of us knew commented "yeah, mine's right here" and lifted his shirt to show the top of his IWB holster. The guy got more and more thoughtful as the emotion subsided and each of his concerns were addressed. The idea of taking personal responsibility for protecting oneself and family seemed to really resonate with him. His parting words were (as far as I can remember):

Guy: "You've given me a lot to think about. I have a gun at home, but no ammo and I really don't know how to use it. I think I need some training, can you recommend some place where I can learn how to use my gun? I'm glad I talked to you, and I think you're a great guy."

A friend of mine who was also at the meet told me after that he had actually overheard the guy defending my right to carry to another parent near the end of the meet (some time after we had talked).

• OC [check]
• foe --> friend [check]
• didn't draw weapon in defence [check]

= Good day

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Way to go leeland! Thanks for taking a little abuse up front and having the patience and understanding to connect with this guy! Great story and outcome!

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An epic thread I hope I am articulate as you if/when I am ever confronted.