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Thread: terrible aim

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    This post is partly in jest, and partly deadly serious...

    Every time I look at this forum and see the ad for AIG tactical Supply I am bothered by it. I was once told that every bullet that leaves the gun has a lawyer attached to it. One of my greatest fears is having to use my gun in self defense and hitting an innocent by-standard.

    When evaluating new environments, I find myself often thinking about lines of sight and what, if anything, around me would stop a round. Looking at that target and seeing 4 rounds hit and the other 7 miss I can't help but think of those 7 rounds flying across the street and hitting the school bus full of lawyer's children headed to summer camp.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The "target" is what - an 1" to 1 1/2" square?

    I'd say that was good shooting.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    The "target" is what - an 1" to 1 1/2" square?

    I'd say that was good shooting.
    Hmm. Now I'm racking my brain trying to figure out if that is the size it renders on your monitor (much smaller on mine) exactly what screen resolution and DPI you must be running. Or wait, maybe you were using the bullet holes as a reference to derive the scale. But in that case, what caliber bullet. Doh, then we have to factor in distance to target and shooting position before we can decide if it really was good shooting or not...

    Then again, maybe I'm over analyzing this a bit.

    Honestly though, what I was really interested in was how much thought other folks give to stray bullets and others. For example, I can honestly say that when I go to a restaurant and select a place to sit I'm thinking not just about a seat with good visibility to possible threat locations and easy exit, but also looking for bullet backstops... Maybe I'm just obsessive/insane. :?

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    Leelando wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    The "target" is what - an 1" to 1 1/2" square?

    I'd say that was good shooting.
    Honestly though, what I was really interested in was how much thought other folks give to stray bullets and others.
    I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.

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    Bennelli wrote:
    I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.
    I think your buddy is doing a good thing. If you are not confident in your ability to use a tool without hurting people (in this case, people that you don't want to hurt), don't use it. The good guys he's talking about could very well include his family.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Bennelli wrote:
    I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.
    I think your buddy is doing a good thing. If you are not confident in your ability to use a tool without hurting people (in this case, people that you don't want to hurt), don't use it. The good guys he's talking about could very well include his family.
    That's one of the reasons why God invented Range Time.

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    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
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    Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it.

    Kevin
    If you are using your sights at 12' and under, you are wasting time and at closer distances are begging to have your gun taken away.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I an't afford to practice as much as most here, but when I do I work on the point and shoot method mostly. I generally use it at all ranges 50' and under.

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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it.
    hmmm. I've always used the sights. Someone here needs to take me under their wing and teach me the proper technique of this "point shooting". I'll bring the guns and ammo, who's game to teach me?

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    Leelando wrote:
    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it.
    hmmm. I've always used the sights. Someone here needs to take me under their wing and teach me the proper technique of this "point shooting". I'll bring the guns and ammo, who's game to teach me?
    You can teach yourself to do it. It's no different than pointing your finger at something. You basically keep both eyes open and look across the topand past yourgun, at the target.

    If the threat is inside 15-20 ft of you, you're not going to have time to use the sights.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    ...snip...If the threat is inside 15-20 ft of you, you're not going to have time to use the sights.
    hmm. Next time I'm at the range I'll try it and see if it is faster for me while still being accurate enough to get good hits. It's hard for me to imagine it trimming much time, but if you all swear by it then it's worth a try. I'd love to shave even a quarter second.

    Currently when drawing from the holster and shooting a controlled pair, I come straight up so the end of the barrel is just a few inches above the holster. Then the gun pivots 90 degrees to point forward. My support hand joins up into a firing grip as the whole package starts to push straight forward to target. I pickup the sight picture as it is moving forward and at the same time am taking the slack out of the trigger. When everything comes into alignment, I squeeze that last bit for the surprise break and hope to hear the first boom. Trap trigger, release to reset point and take back any slack during recoil. When front sight comes back into clear focus squeeze for the second shot. Using this procedure, I can get 2 very clean hits in the center of the thorasic cavity in around 1.5 seconds at 7 yards (this is CC and having to sweep away and clear a covering outer garment). I'm just a tiny bit faster when I go OC with no garment in the way.

    At ten yards, my time is closer to 2 seconds if I want to guarantee good hits.

    When you point shoot, is it one handed, or do you still bring the support hand over?

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    Leelando wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    ...snip...If the threat is inside 15-20 ft of you, you're not going to have time to use the sights.
    hmm. Next time I'm at the range I'll try it and see if it is faster for me while still being accurate enough to get good hits. It's hard for me to imagine it trimming much time, but if you all swear by it then it's worth a try. I'd love to shave even a quarter second.

    Currently when drawing from the holster and shooting a controlled pair, I come straight up so the end of the barrel is just a few inches above the holster. Then the gun pivots 90 degrees to point forward. My support hand joins up into a firing grip as the whole package starts to push straight forward to target. I pickup the sight picture as it is moving forward and at the same time am taking the slack out of the trigger. When everything comes into alignment, I squeeze that last bit for the surprise break and hope to hear the first boom. Trap trigger, release to reset point and take back any slack during recoil. When front sight comes back into clear focus squeeze for the second shot. Using this procedure, I can get 2 very clean hits in the center of the thorasic cavity in around 1.5 seconds at 7 yards (this is CC and having to sweep away and clear a covering outer garment). I'm just a tiny bit faster when I go OC with no garment in the way.

    At ten yards, my time is closer to 2 seconds if I want to guarantee good hits.

    When you point shoot, is it one handed, or do you still bring the support hand over?
    Either way. It's good to practice one handed shooting as well as using your weak hand, just in case you lose the use of one or the other hand.

    Best way to start IMO is to sight on a target. Then raise your head just a bit and open both eyes. Focus on the target, not your gun. Notice that you'll see 2 guns in front of you when you do this. One should appear to be right between you and the target and pointed right at it, the other will be off to the right a bit (if you're right handed - opposite if you shoot lefty). This gives you an idea what you're looking for in point shooting, before you actually fire your weapon with this technique.

    At 10' you should able to hit a 9" target everytime with just a little practice. And shave maybe a half second off your time.

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    Yup. If you practice enough, you won't even need to look at the target through the top of the gun as you acquire it. You just look where you want to shoot and the rest is muscle memory. Some of the more advanced point shooting methods involve shooting from the hip and firing multiple shots as you go from holster to the two-handed position when your other hand reaches the gun as your shooting hand goes from the 90-degree angle to the horizontal zero in line with your target. Be careful though, some people have shot themselves in the foot or the hip learning this. I would suggest doing some really focused dry-fire exercises with this technique before you switch to live rounds.

    The most annoying part of learning point shooting is the lack of accuracy during the first 3 or 4 hundred rounds. This can also be learned best in an environment that is outdoors rather than an indoor range. Most indoor ranges frown and even ban drawing and firing from a holster. It is dangerous, in general, to draw from the hip and fire in an enclosed environment with others in close proximity, so you might want to take that into consideration. However, in order to successfully deploy and learn proper point shooting from the holster to the target, you must draw and fire hundreds and hundreds of times. I can tell you that your arm is going to get really tired after just a couple boxes of ammo. Break out the ole Ibprophen and Tylenol the next morning. If your holster wasn't broken in before you started, then it will be well-worn by the time you get proficient with point shooting.

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Ask yourself if you think you can use your sights at contact range, 4'distance or 5' away.

    At these distances, I am firing from the hip, tight from the hip, weapon might come up to elbows locked at 45 degrees for second shot, never will my arms be extended - meanwhile I am backing away and/or to the side.

    Obviously there are other considerations and specific training is highly recommended. Most indoor ranges do not permit this.

    Many problems are created by using static body position, arms extended, and thru the sights aimed fire. Remember most active shootings happen at 6' or less and under 3 sec. ymmv.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Ask yourself if you think you can use your sights at contact range, 4'distance or 5' away.

    At these distances, I am firing from the hip, tight from the hip, weapon might come up to elbows locked at 45 degrees for second shot, never will my arms be extended - meanwhile I am backing away and/or to the side.

    Obviously there are other considerations and specific training is highly recommended. Most indoor ranges do not permit this.

    Many problems are created by using static body position, arms extended, and thru the sights aimed fire. Remember most active shootings happen at 6' or less and under 3 sec. ymmv.

    Yata hey
    Grapeshot is right.

    If the BG is within that 6' range of you, he's close enough to reach out and grab your weapon if you extend your arms to fire at him. a shot from the hip may be your best bet, if you train for it.

    Since we don't know what sort of threat scenaio we might face, it is a good idea to train for any possible situation.

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    67 year old white male at 60 yards....AR15 benched five shot. Quarter in pic for comparison.



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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    67 year old white male at 60 yards....AR15 benched five shot. Quarter in pic for comparison.

    Show off!

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    HehHeh....At my age I GOTTA show off! While I can....all in fun.

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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    HehHeh....At my age I GOTTA show off! While I can....all in fun.
    If you got it, flaunt it - 'n ya got it Mr. Mitch!

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Leelando wrote:
    I was once told that every bullet that leaves the gun has a lawyer attached to it. One of my greatest fears is having to use my gun in self defense and hitting an innocent by-standard.
    There is a lot of wisdom in what you were told. And you are being quite rational in being concerned with shooting (incompetently and/or inadvertently) someone who doesn't need to be shot.

    Actually, now that I thinkof it, that wise statement derives from the famous broader concept of......

    HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense©

    It is as follows:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    HPCSD© is a generative conceptualization. It is wise to pay attention to its derivations. HPCSD©will keep you out of trouble and will guarantee the avoidance of both inflicting and suffering emotional trauma.



    Bennelli wrote:
    I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.


    Seems like it could be a pretty rational approach. Depending on how one navigates through this big bad society, one can certainly minimize the exposure to the BGs without a lethal weapon. The largest majority of citizens do exactly that. And they can protect their families just fine. Without a pistola.

    Don't forget that gun carriers are a small minority of the general public. They can't all be wrong.

    I wouldn't do what your friend does. I'm too chicken to put myself into a situation where I'd be at the mercy of some armedhomicidal maniac. I'd rather carry a gun and take upthe responsibility that goes along with it.

    But it's a lot of work andI do get tired of carting the dman gun around and jumping through the legal hoops and making sure I'm legal in every way. That's a drag. Those are costs. Costs that your friend doesn't incur. That's the rational side of his strategy. Pretty intelligent, if done correctly. Your friend might not be a nervous Nellie guy and instead might be areally smart fellow. Possibly smarter than you or me.

    OTOH, your friend doesn't have the benefits of the fun and challenge of being into guns. He probably doesn't go to gun shows, for example. Gawd, those are fun. Last week I went to one and managed to dig up a nice deal onKimber in 10mm. It came with 4 mags and a Fusion .40 S&W drop in barrel. All for $750! I was stoked. I can't wait to play with it. Bought me 1000 rounds of target ammo to do just that. Hmmm, maybe your friend has another benefit to his approach--ammo cost savings....




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    HankT wrote:


    Bennelli wrote:
    I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.


    Seems like it could be a pretty rational approach. Depending on how one navigates through this big bad society, one can certainly minimize the exposure to the BGs without a lethal weapon. The largest majority of citizens do exactly that. And they can protect their families just fine. Without a pistola.

    Don't forget that gun carriers are a small minority of the general public. They can't all be wrong.

    I wouldn't do what your friend does. I'm too chicken to put myself into a situation where I'd be at the mercy of some armedhomicidal maniac. I'd rather carry a gun and take upthe responsibility that goes along with it.

    But it's a lot of work andI do get tired of carting the dman gun around and jumping through the legal hoops and making sure I'm legal in every way. That's a drag. Those are costs. Costs that your friend doesn't incur. That's the rational side of his strategy. Pretty intelligent, if done correctly. Your friend might not be a nervous Nellie guy and instead might be areally smart fellow. Possibly smarter than you or me.

    OTOH, your friend doesn't have the benefits of the fun and challenge of being into guns. He probably doesn't go to gun shows, for example. Gawd, those are fun. Last week I went to one and managed to dig up a nice deal onKimber in 10mm. It came with 4 mags and a Fusion .40 S&W drop in barrel. All for $750! I was stoked. I can't wait to play with it. Bought me 1000 rounds of target ammo to do just that. Hmmm, maybe your friend has another benefit to his approach--ammo cost savings....


    I tend to agree to a point with you HankT. I think the friends rational may be a deversion from his lack of confidence in learning a skill that most of us do not have a natural talent for. It's like anything else, we have to learn technique and practice to hone these skills. Some of us may have to put more work into it than others.

    By bosses wife has always claimed that she couldn't shoot a larger cal pistol (above .32). I told her what my parents always told me when I was a kid, "Can't never did anything." One day we (her and her husband and myself) were doing a little shooting and her husband put his 92FS in her hand. She howled she can't shoot that thing. I remeinder her about "can't." So she tried it, first shot resulted in a limp wrist jam. Her husband cleared it and she raised it again. I saw that she was holding the pistol to lowon the gripand corrected her (surprised her husband didn't spot it) Anyway, she ende up emptying a full mag in semi-rapid fire. As she handed the pistol back to her husband I said to her, "SEE! You CAN shoot a bigger gun!" She sort of turned away with a sheepish grin.

    Now, it should be recognized that we don't all handle high stress situations the same. Some of us can maintain our cool, while others come totally unwrapped. Those that are not able to stay packaged are best not to go armed. Anyone that realizes they have a temper management problem might be doing society a favor by not carrying a firearm.

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