• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

terrible aim

Leelando

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
23
Location
, ,
imported post

This post is partly in jest, and partly deadly serious...

Every time I look at this forum and see the ad for AIG tactical Supply I am bothered by it. I was once told that every bullet that leaves the gun has a lawyer attached to it. One of my greatest fears is having to use my gun in self defense and hitting an innocent by-standard.

When evaluating new environments, I find myself often thinking about lines of sight and what, if anything, around me would stop a round. Looking at that target and seeing 4 rounds hit and the other 7 miss I can't help but think of those 7 rounds flying across the street and hitting the school bus full of lawyer's children headed to summer camp. :(
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

The "target" is what - an 1" to 1 1/2" square?

I'd say that was good shooting. :)

Yata hey
 

Leelando

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
23
Location
, ,
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
The "target" is what - an 1" to 1 1/2" square?

I'd say that was good shooting. :)
Hmm. Now I'm racking my brain trying to figure out if that is the size it renders on your monitor (much smaller on mine) exactly what screen resolution and DPI you must be running. Or wait, maybe you were using the bullet holes as a reference to derive the scale. But in that case, what caliber bullet. Doh, then we have to factor in distance to target and shooting position before we can decide if it really was good shooting or not...

Then again, maybe I'm over analyzing this a bit. :lol:

Honestly though, what I was really interested in was how much thought other folks give to stray bullets and others. For example, I can honestly say that when I go to a restaurant and select a place to sit I'm thinking not just about a seat with good visibility to possible threat locations and easy exit, but also looking for bullet backstops... Maybe I'm just obsessive/insane. :?
 

Bennelli

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
100
Location
, Utah, USA
imported post

Leelando wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
The "target" is what - an 1" to 1 1/2" square?

I'd say that was good shooting. :)

Honestly though, what I was really interested in was how much thought other folks give to stray bullets and others.

I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.
 

FogRider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
1,412
Location
Centennial, Colorado, USA
imported post

Bennelli wrote:
I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.
I think your buddy is doing a good thing. If you are not confident in your ability to use a tool without hurting people (in this case, people that you don't want to hurt), don't use it. The good guys he's talking about could very well include his family.
 

Francis Marion

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
194
Location
Taylorsville, Utah, USA
imported post

FogRider wrote:
Bennelli wrote:
I have a friend and he told me that he does not carry a firearm because he fears that if he misses the BG and hits a GG.So he does not carry at all, can you believe that? He is more worried about missing then protecting himself and his family. I hope he lives a life in which he will never need a Firearm. Truth is stranger than fiction.
I think your buddy is doing a good thing. If you are not confident in your ability to use a tool without hurting people (in this case, people that you don't want to hurt), don't use it. The good guys he's talking about could very well include his family.
That's one of the reasons why God invented Range Time.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

LovesHisXD45 wrote:
Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it. :)

Kevin
If you are using your sights at 12' and under, you are wasting time and at closer distances are begging to have your gun taken away.

Yata hey
 

Leelando

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
23
Location
, ,
imported post

LovesHisXD45 wrote:
Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it.
hmmm. I've always used the sights. Someone here needs to take me under their wing and teach me the proper technique of this "point shooting". I'll bring the guns and ammo, who's game to teach me?
 

Task Force 16

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
2,615
Location
Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
imported post

Leelando wrote:
LovesHisXD45 wrote:
Point shooting.... learn it....love it....live it.
hmmm. I've always used the sights. Someone here needs to take me under their wing and teach me the proper technique of this "point shooting". I'll bring the guns and ammo, who's game to teach me?

You can teach yourself to do it. It's no different than pointing your finger at something. You basically keep both eyes open and look across the topand past yourgun, at the target.

If the threat is inside 15-20 ft of you, you're not going to have time to use the sights.
 

Leelando

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
23
Location
, ,
imported post

Task Force 16 wrote:
...snip...If the threat is inside 15-20 ft of you, you're not going to have time to use the sights.
hmm. Next time I'm at the range I'll try it and see if it is faster for me while still being accurate enough to get good hits. It's hard for me to imagine it trimming much time, but if you all swear by it then it's worth a try. I'd love to shave even a quarter second.

Currently when drawing from the holster and shooting a controlled pair, I come straight up so the end of the barrel is just a few inches above the holster. Then the gun pivots 90 degrees to point forward. My support hand joins up into a firing grip as the whole package starts to push straight forward to target. I pickup the sight picture as it is moving forward and at the same time am taking the slack out of the trigger. When everything comes into alignment, I squeeze that last bit for the surprise break and hope to hear the first boom. Trap trigger, release to reset point and take back any slack during recoil. When front sight comes back into clear focus squeeze for the second shot. Using this procedure, I can get 2 very clean hits in the center of the thorasic cavity in around 1.5 seconds at 7 yards (this is CC and having to sweep away and clear a covering outer garment). I'm just a tiny bit faster when I go OC with no garment in the way.

At ten yards, my time is closer to 2 seconds if I want to guarantee good hits.

When you point shoot, is it one handed, or do you still bring the support hand over?
 

Task Force 16

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
2,615
Location
Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
imported post

Leelando wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
...snip...If the threat is inside 15-20 ft of you, you're not going to have time to use the sights.
hmm. Next time I'm at the range I'll try it and see if it is faster for me while still being accurate enough to get good hits. It's hard for me to imagine it trimming much time, but if you all swear by it then it's worth a try. I'd love to shave even a quarter second.

Currently when drawing from the holster and shooting a controlled pair, I come straight up so the end of the barrel is just a few inches above the holster. Then the gun pivots 90 degrees to point forward. My support hand joins up into a firing grip as the whole package starts to push straight forward to target. I pickup the sight picture as it is moving forward and at the same time am taking the slack out of the trigger. When everything comes into alignment, I squeeze that last bit for the surprise break and hope to hear the first boom. Trap trigger, release to reset point and take back any slack during recoil. When front sight comes back into clear focus squeeze for the second shot. Using this procedure, I can get 2 very clean hits in the center of the thorasic cavity in around 1.5 seconds at 7 yards (this is CC and having to sweep away and clear a covering outer garment). I'm just a tiny bit faster when I go OC with no garment in the way.

At ten yards, my time is closer to 2 seconds if I want to guarantee good hits.

When you point shoot, is it one handed, or do you still bring the support hand over?

Either way. It's good to practice one handed shooting as well as using your weak hand, just in case you lose the use of one or the other hand.

Best way to start IMO is to sight on a target. Then raise your head just a bit and open both eyes. Focus on the target, not your gun. Notice that you'll see 2 guns in front of you when you do this. One should appear to be right between you and the target and pointed right at it, the other will be off to the right a bit (if you're right handed - opposite if you shoot lefty). This gives you an idea what you're looking for in point shooting, before you actually fire your weapon with this technique.

At 10' you should able to hit a 9" target everytime with just a little practice. And shave maybe a half second off your time.
 

LovesHisXD45

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
580
Location
, Utah, USA
imported post

Yup. If you practice enough, you won't even need to look at the target through the top of the gun as you acquire it. You just look where you want to shoot and the rest is muscle memory. Some of the more advanced point shooting methods involve shooting from the hip and firing multiple shots as you go from holster to the two-handed position when your other hand reaches the gun as your shooting hand goes from the 90-degree angle to the horizontal zero in line with your target. Be careful though, some people have shot themselves in the foot or the hip learning this. I would suggest doing some really focused dry-fire exercises with this technique before you switch to live rounds.

The most annoying part of learning point shooting is the lack of accuracy during the first 3 or 4 hundred rounds. This can also be learned best in an environment that is outdoors rather than an indoor range. Most indoor ranges frown and even ban drawing and firing from a holster. It is dangerous, in general, to draw from the hip and fire in an enclosed environment with others in close proximity, so you might want to take that into consideration. However, in order to successfully deploy and learn proper point shooting from the holster to the target, you must draw and fire hundreds and hundreds of times. I can tell you that your arm is going to get really tired after just a couple boxes of ammo. Break out the ole Ibprophen and Tylenol the next morning. If your holster wasn't broken in before you started, then it will be well-worn by the time you get proficient with point shooting.

Kevin
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Ask yourself if you think you can use your sights at contact range, 4'distance or 5' away.

At these distances, I am firing from the hip, tight from the hip, weapon might come up to elbows locked at 45 degrees for second shot, never will my arms be extended - meanwhile I am backing away and/or to the side.

Obviously there are other considerations and specific training is highly recommended. Most indoor ranges do not permit this.

Many problems are created by using static body position, arms extended, and thru the sights aimed fire. Remember most active shootings happen at 6' or less and under 3 sec. ymmv.

Yata hey
 

Task Force 16

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
2,615
Location
Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
Ask yourself if you think you can use your sights at contact range, 4'distance or 5' away.

At these distances, I am firing from the hip, tight from the hip, weapon might come up to elbows locked at 45 degrees for second shot, never will my arms be extended - meanwhile I am backing away and/or to the side.

Obviously there are other considerations and specific training is highly recommended. Most indoor ranges do not permit this.

Many problems are created by using static body position, arms extended, and thru the sights aimed fire. Remember most active shootings happen at 6' or less and under 3 sec. ymmv.

Yata hey

Grapeshot is right.

If the BG is within that 6' range of you, he's close enough to reach out and grab your weapon if you extend your arms to fire at him. a shot from the hip may be your best bet, if you train for it.

Since we don't know what sort of threat scenaio we might face, it is a good idea to train for any possible situation.
 

TheMrMitch

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
1,260
Location
Hodgenville, Kentucky, USA
imported post

67 year old white male at 60 yards....AR15 benched five shot. Quarter in pic for comparison.

Target.jpg
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

TheMrMitch wrote:
HehHeh....At my age I GOTTA show off! While I can....all in fun.:dude:
If you got it, flaunt it - 'n ya got it Mr. Mitch! :D

Yata hey
 
Top