What would you do in this scenario?

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Took this from another forum, only had one reply so I wanted to see what you guys have to say about it.

Here's the scenario:

You're at a friend's house, celebrating his birthday. You're currently carrying, and therefore only drinking water and soda. Nobody else knows you're carrying, and when asked why you're not drinking, you respond with the fact that you are the driver.

Fast forward a couple hours. Party's dying down, so you and your friend decide to leave and head back home. As you're both leaving the house, you hear a domestic disturbance next door that's pretty heated. A woman storms out of the house in a hurried fashion, followed by the husband. He grabs her arm, while yelling at her to get back in the house. She tries to free her arm, but can't. The man wrenches her arm in a painful way, attempting to drag her back into the house.

Seeing both of you next door, watching the event, the woman screams for help. You tell your buddy to call 911, as you draw your concealed firearm. You tell the man very sternly to let her go, and to back away. The man complies, but now what?

I'm not advocating that CCW holders should have powers to arrest, but what would you do in the above situation after the man backs away? For this reason, I think carrying a simple pair of zip tie cuffs could do a lot of help. You could order the man to the ground, and have your friend secure his hands. There's a lot of what ifs, but the main thing I think is important is putting your gun away, so it's not out when the police arrive. You could then have the man sit while you and your friend keep eye on him.

What kind of legalities would there be regarding this situation? I think zip tie cuffs are great. They're small, can be purchased or made easily, and are ideal for securing a person temporarily. We use them in the military all the time.

Then of course come the what ifs, like:
-What if you're alone?
-What if the person tries to escape?
-What will the police think when they get there?

Looking for some people's opinions and/or advice, if they've been in a similar situation.

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If the man calls your bluff and actually turns tail- if he runs- you cannot and will not shoot him in the back. So he's gone the moment he realizes this. If he stays- Could you be charged with kidnapping if the man isn't charged with a crime (attacking)?

Specially because the police like to keep the policing to the police- maybe the responding officers will have an attitude or prejudgement- who knows?

If I were in that situation- I would maybe even consider "rounding up the guys" and teaching him a lesson old school

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cscitney87 wrote:

If the man calls your bluff and actually turns tail- if he runs- you cannot and will not shoot him in the back.  So he's gone the moment he realizes this.  If he stays- Could you be charged with kidnapping if the man isn't charged with a crime (attacking)?

Specially because the police like to keep the policing to the police- maybe the responding officers will have an attitude or prejudgement- who knows?

If I were in that situation- I would maybe even consider "rounding up the guys" and teaching him a lesson old school

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In Nevada there is no way that guy wouldn't be charged with a crime(domestic battery or something along those lines), especially if there were witnesses. First off I would have approached him without pulling my gun and if he refused to let her go or got all "macho" on me I could rough him up and get away with it. But in your situation, I would definitely had cuffed him if I had cuffs(of any sort) and explained to the officer that it was for everyones protection.

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Your question is potentially provocative and you have a low post count, both of which raise warning flags, but I'm going to answer your question honestly and straightforwardly anyway.

I've been in a very similar situation. Never drew the firearm, or let anybody know I had it. All I had to do was draw the cell phone and call 911. The abuser got all polite when he realized I was on the line with a dispatcher and disengaged from his assault. He did not appear to be armed and I was never close enough for him to press an attack against me (I was probably 50 feet or more away on the 2nd floor balcony of the house next door.) There was no legally defensible justification for my drawing a weapon. And there doesn't appear to be any such justification in your scenario either.

In your scenario, the abusive guy is not armed or displaying a weapon. Drawing down on somebody in such a circumstance is not the best Plan A. Calling 911, and *perhaps* letting the abusive guy know you're doing so, if that appears to be safe, is about all you can do unless the bad guy is obviously beating the woman to death, or is committing the assault with a weapon, or has a weapon visible in his possession.

Domestic situations like this are a nightmare for police, armed civilians and innocent bystanders alike. You never know what the aggressor is capable of, and you don't know what happened out of your sight. The woman might be the real aggressor and could have stabbed him while inside the house. The guy might be righteously ticked off, if acting out a bit himself. You just don't know.

If you can safely let the two know police are on the way, that might defuse the situation. If the life of the woman is in imminent danger, you first need to be a good (and living) witness. If you can do so safely, defusing the situation without use of the firearm is in order. If that isn't enough, because the guy is using a weapon, or is clearly physically overpowering the woman (as in beating her to death) then you may have to make a call in re deploying the firearm.

But know that doing so carries with it many risks. The guy has her by the arm in your scenario, and she is most certainly in your line of fire, or far too close for comfort. He might use her as a shield. He might dare you to kill him and even escalate his attack on the woman to get you to do so. They both might be so drunk neither one has any idea what's going on and after the hangover will only remember, and tell police, that you broke up their "lovemaking" session. If you draw down on him and he surrenders, you've got to be concerned that arriving police might mistake you as the bad guy and smoke your sorry rear end before things get sorted out.

So to answer your question, my take is:

• Don't draw your firearm unless the woman's life, or your life, is in imminent danger. The kind of danger that would stand up in court.
• If you draw the weapon, do everything you can to let police know YOU have the gun, are dressed thus and such, and YOU are the good guy. Get your buddy to tell them that if possible. Do everything they ask when they arrive on the scene. What to do if shots are fired is a whole different can of worms.
• Don't even think about "civilian arrest" or "citizen's arrest" or carrying handcuffs or zip ties around. Put those thoughts far from your mind.
• Do call police, and keep the dispatcher on the line (they're recording everything for posterity) until police arrive and take control.
• Do let the domestic combatants know that is being done, if it appears safe to tell them.

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Unless the man had a weapon, I wouldn't draw my weapon at all. I might place my hand on it, in preparation to draw, but I would keep it holstered unless I saw a threat of imminent serious injury or death aimed at the woman or myself.

As far as trying to detain the person until LEO arrives, I probably wouldn't. I would only keep him separated from is victem. Possibly get her back inside her house and keep her abuser outside, until LEO get there.

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i would call 911 and stand outside and observe. no reason to draw. no one's life is in danger.

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Common theme here. You seem to take the drawing of the firearm for granted. This is the error in your scenario. There was no need to draw. Drawing had the potential to escalate the situation unnecessarily. I agree with markand about this post being a possible attempt to get a rise from this board. Fortunately, we are a fairly intelligent lot with decent analytical skills.

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simmonsjoe wrote:

Common theme here. You seem to take the drawing of the firearm for granted. This is the error in your scenario. There was no need to draw. Drawing had the potential to escalate the situation unnecessarily. I agree with markand about this post being a possible attempt to get a rise from this board. Fortunately, we are a fairly intelligent lot with decent analytical skills.

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Aman grabbing his wife is not cause for immediate threat to anyones life. There is no need to brandish a weapon. So if I was in that scenario and that was me, I would immediately sell all my guns and realize I need to take anger-management and many many many firearm-safety classes. That of course is after reading every penal code there is on the state's self-defense laws. You might as well have asked us all "So as gun-owners I want to ask you guys something, after someone bumps into you and you shoot him in the face, what do you do next? Buy a snowcone? or a hotdog?" What a loaded question.


This is a very common misconception anti-gunners have. They place their own misjudgementon how they would carry out a a scenerio on the gun owners.

Before purchasing my first handgun at 21 I had tomentally question myself for a couple months. I placed myself in different scenarios... "Will I sleep walk and grab my gun", "If my girlfriend cheats on me would I want to harm the guy?", "would a gun in my room be grabbed by friends of mine and used".. etc.

Then I realized that the gun is not some object that makes you do things. It is a tool. I realizedI wascalm enough not to misuse this tool. The only way this tool was going to be used was in self-defense. After I bought it I felt much safer knowing I could protect myself, a right I had denied myself until that point.

Most anti-gunners may ask themselves these same questions I asked myself. Although they answer them differently. They themselves areusually not calm and collected, and if put in any position of feeling threatened even by name-calling they would feel the urge to use it.An urge most gun-owners would never have. They then blanket society with their same irrationality and come to the conclusion noone should own a weapon because they themselves fear their own probable misuse.


Edit: This is VERY evident here in my video.Me and a friend broke up a fight in the video. At the end he tellsme to "get my gun, get my gun". Something that would have only escalated the situation. The man that was fighting had gone back to his car, maybe grabbed a weapon and was walking up to my vehicle as I was trying to drive away. My friend has never fired a gun, doesn't know how they work and doesn't believe peopleneed guns or should own them. He is, by all means, an anti-gunner; how funny is it to see how quickly he wants me togive him my gun (which was of course locked legally in a container in my vehicle). Case and point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2Jxc52RQ4

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In the scenario provided, I would NOT have drawn my gun at all. I would have called 911, and allowed them to take care of it.

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Streetbikerr6 wrote:

Edit: This is VERY evident here in my video.Me and a friend broke up a fight in the video. At the end he tellsme to "get my gun, get my gun". Something that would have only escalated the situation. The man that was fighting had gone back to his car, maybe grabbed a weapon and was walking up to my vehicle as I was trying to drive away. My friend has never fired a gun, doesn't know how they work and doesn't believe peopleneed guns or should own them. He is, by all means, an anti-gunner; how funny is it to see how quickly he wants me togive him my gun (which was of course locked legally in a container in my vehicle). Case and point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2Jxc52RQ4

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Yikes. Why did your friend feel the need to get involved? No offense, but he wouldn't be my friend very long acting like that.

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buster81 wrote:

Streetbikerr6 wrote:

Edit: This is VERY evident here in my video.Me and a friend broke up a fight in the video. At the end he tellsme to "get my gun, get my gun". Something that would have only escalated the situation. The man that was fighting had gone back to his car, maybe grabbed a weapon and was walking up to my vehicle as I was trying to drive away. My friend has never fired a gun, doesn't know how they work and doesn't believe peopleneed guns or should own them. He is, by all means, an anti-gunner; how funny is it to see how quickly he wants me togive him my gun (which was of course locked legally in a container in my vehicle). Case and point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2Jxc52RQ4

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Yikes. Why did your friend feel the need to get involved? No offense, but he wouldn't be my friend very long acting like that.

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Well I am not sure what you mean by involved. If you mean involving himself by stopping a fight that could of ended up with someone getting killed..then shame on you lol.I got myself involved too. If a guy is about to die by means of head being smashed into concrete, I am going to stop it, no question.

Although if you mean at the end when the beat up guy is walking toward my truck and my friend wanted to get my gun, then your right, involvemnet in that is not necessary. He is harmless. But I believe he wanted toscare the guy (which was walking to my car throwing his hands up looking for a fight) to walk away from us. Though I knew to get out of there in fear he had a gun on his person. I've been friends with him since I was 13. He is not confrontational as a person, he is smart, goes to a UC school and all around a good guy. He was up here visiting andjust let his adrenaline and prideget to him in this situation. If a guy thatwas talkingcrap to a random person eating their food in a restaurant you are in for 10 minutes and then attacks the guy, then you are going to be a bit angry at the person. Especially after you control the attacker and send him on his way and then he starts coming AT YOU instead, you might get a little pissed depending on what type of head you got on you.No need to not be friends with the guy lol. I'm not defending his words, I am just saying some people are different... which is why those people tend to project their anti-gun sentiments on us... because they themselves could not be responsible with a gun.

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I would probably draw on the attacker. At least according to Arizona law, grabbing someone and forcing them into a building, vehicle, or anywhere else is considered felony kidnapping. Even if the victim is the attacker's wife, that should make no difference especially when she is screaming for help. Arizona also has a defensive brandishing law. If you feel threatened or if someone else is being threatened with physical force, you may display a firearm in a defensive manner. Depending on the situation, if feasible, I would approach the attacker, order him to release the woman, and then display a firearm and threaten to shoot him if he does not release her. Arizona law allows the use of deadly force to prevent kidnapping. I would be hesitant to shoot, however, because even if the law techincally allows this, I wouldn't bet on it. If he displayed a weapon I would shoot. If he continued to appear unarmed but would not release the girl,I would tase the person. Obviously, I would call 911 as well. If I didn't feel comfortable approaching them, I obviously would call the police. The circumstances would determine whether or not I decided to directly confront and/or combat the suspect or retreat and call 911.

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Drawing your gun first is not the best course of action, and could end up with at least an assault /brandishing charge.

Some states do however have laws about using force to prevent someone from removing someone or taking somone into a house or vehicle against there will.

Ill post a state for which ever state(s) i can find a cite.

But this thread is for True Tales of SD, not What if scenarios.

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Streetbikerr6 wrote:

buster81 wrote:

Streetbikerr6 wrote:

Edit: This is VERY evident here in my video.Me and a friend broke up a fight in the video. At the end he tellsme to "get my gun, get my gun". Something that would have only escalated the situation. The man that was fighting had gone back to his car, maybe grabbed a weapon and was walking up to my vehicle as I was trying to drive away. My friend has never fired a gun, doesn't know how they work and doesn't believe peopleneed guns or should own them. He is, by all means, an anti-gunner; how funny is it to see how quickly he wants me togive him my gun (which was of course locked legally in a container in my vehicle). Case and point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2Jxc52RQ4

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Yikes. Why did your friend feel the need to get involved? No offense, but he wouldn't be my friend very long acting like that.

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Well I am not sure what you mean by involved. If you mean involving himself by stopping a fight that could of ended up with someone getting killed..then shame on you lol.I got myself involved too. If a guy is about to die by means of head being smashed into concrete, I am going to stop it, no question.

Although if you mean at the end when the beat up guy is walking toward my truck and my friend wanted to get my gun, then your right, involvemnet in that is not necessary. He is harmless. But I believe he wanted toscare the guy (which was walking to my car throwing his hands up looking for a fight) to walk away from us. Though I knew to get out of there in fear he had a gun on his person. I've been friends with him since I was 13. He is not confrontational as a person, he is smart, goes to a UC school and all around a good guy. He was up here visiting andjust let his adrenaline and prideget to him in this situation. If a guy thatwas talkingcrap to a random person eating their food in a restaurant you are in for 10 minutes and then attacks the guy, then you are going to be a bit angry at the person. Especially after you control the attacker and send him on his way and then he starts coming AT YOU instead, you might get a little pissed depending on what type of head you got on you.No need to not be friends with the guy lol. I'm not defending his words, I am just saying some people are different... which is why those people tend to project their anti-gun sentiments on us... because they themselves could not be responsible with a gun.

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I'm not sure who was going to get killed in this incident. The guy in the white looked like he started it, and got his head bounced off the wall a couple of times for the effort. Was it different than that?

Was this a couple of drunken loudmouth jerkoffs? It seems like it was, butit's hard to tell who had been drinking.

I do like your advice at1:05 of the video. Yousaid "you should just stay out of it." I agree.

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Oh how I DO love these "what would you do in this situation" threads! Here are my top ten things I would do in the situation you described:

10) I'd tell the man to lie on the ground face first, then tag him out because I didn't say "Simon says" first.

9) I'd walk on over to him in a cowboy-ish way and say, "Dem's fightin' words!"

8) I'd shoot out his porch light, but ina polite way.

7) I'd break into a monologue: "Don't think for a second I won't blow a big hole in your face and it won't bother me a bit, not any more than if I shot a deer. Now get off my goddamned lawn. Believe me, kid, I'll blow your damn head off, go back to bed and sleep like a baby. I couldn't care less. You're nothing to me. In Korea, we stacked @#$%s like you five feet high and used you as sandbags."

Oh wait, that was from the movie Gran Torino. Nevermind.

6) I'd whup that boy til he calls me mama!

5) I'd order a pizza. And then maybe eat some pretzels. And then maybe some pretzels and beer. Mmmmm, beer.

4) I'd fall down and play dead. Playing dead can come in very handy in domestic violence situations.

3) I'd storm right up to theguy and DEMAND my rights! Even if I didn't know the guy or even what my rights were. Then I'd turn around and storm off ina big huff!

2) I'd start dancing, and gesticulating wildly. Then I'd start speaking in tongues, and snuffling around the ground likea wart hog. The guy would then start wondering what the hell I was up to. I'd keep doing this for hours on end if needed, until curiosity killed that cat.

And finally, the number one thing I would do in the situation you described:

1) I'd try to reason with the man.I'd explain that Dean Wormer was right: Fat, drunk and stupid really isn't any way to go through life.

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buster81 wrote:

Streetbikerr6 wrote:

buster81 wrote:

Streetbikerr6 wrote:

Edit: This is VERY evident here in my video.Me and a friend broke up a fight in the video. At the end he tellsme to "get my gun, get my gun". Something that would have only escalated the situation. The man that was fighting had gone back to his car, maybe grabbed a weapon and was walking up to my vehicle as I was trying to drive away. My friend has never fired a gun, doesn't know how they work and doesn't believe peopleneed guns or should own them. He is, by all means, an anti-gunner; how funny is it to see how quickly he wants me togive him my gun (which was of course locked legally in a container in my vehicle). Case and point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2Jxc52RQ4

Click to expand...

Yikes. Why did your friend feel the need to get involved? No offense, but he wouldn't be my friend very long acting like that.

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Well I am not sure what you mean by involved. If you mean involving himself by stopping a fight that could of ended up with someone getting killed..then shame on you lol.I got myself involved too. If a guy is about to die by means of head being smashed into concrete, I am going to stop it, no question.

Although if you mean at the end when the beat up guy is walking toward my truck and my friend wanted to get my gun, then your right, involvemnet in that is not necessary. He is harmless. But I believe he wanted toscare the guy (which was walking to my car throwing his hands up looking for a fight) to walk away from us. Though I knew to get out of there in fear he had a gun on his person. I've been friends with him since I was 13. He is not confrontational as a person, he is smart, goes to a UC school and all around a good guy. He was up here visiting andjust let his adrenaline and prideget to him in this situation. If a guy thatwas talkingcrap to a random person eating their food in a restaurant you are in for 10 minutes and then attacks the guy, then you are going to be a bit angry at the person. Especially after you control the attacker and send him on his way and then he starts coming AT YOU instead, you might get a little pissed depending on what type of head you got on you.No need to not be friends with the guy lol. I'm not defending his words, I am just saying some people are different... which is why those people tend to project their anti-gun sentiments on us... because they themselves could not be responsible with a gun.

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I'm not sure who was going to get killed in this incident. The guy in the white looked like he started it, and got his head bounced off the wall a couple of times for the effort. Was it different than that?

Was this a couple of drunken loudmouth jerkoffs? It seems like it was, butit's hard to tell who had been drinking.

I do like your advice at1:05 of the video. Yousaid "you should just stay out of it." I agree.

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They both actually were not drunk. The blue shirt was getting breakfast at 4 am. The white shirt just started talkingcrap for being looked at, then he wouldnt stop talking crap. The white shirt guy could have been hospitalized if we hadn't stopped it. The blue shirt guy had way too much anger and adrenaline/strength at that moment. It turned from self-defense to wanting to damage the guy as much as he could the minute I got up. I pretty much assessed the white guy before and after, and he truely did not seem drunk. When I ran up the blue shirt guy had his finger in the white shirt guys eye socket. It was really gruesome and bloody. The white shirt guy also had a lump on his forhead the size of a golf ball... not kidding. Just thinking about it makes me queasy.

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TaftPRead wrote:

Took this from another forum, only had one reply so I wanted to see what you guys have to say about it.

Here's the scenario:

You're at a friend's house, celebrating his birthday. You're currently carrying, and therefore only drinking water and soda. Nobody else knows you're carrying, and when asked why you're not drinking, you respond with the fact that you are the driver.

Fast forward a couple hours. Party's dying down, so you and your friend decide to leave and head back home. As you're both leaving the house, you hear a domestic disturbance next door that's pretty heated. A woman storms out of the house in a hurried fashion, followed by the husband. He grabs her arm, while yelling at her to get back in the house. She tries to free her arm, but can't. The man wrenches her arm in a painful way, attempting to drag her back into the house.

Seeing both of you next door, watching the event, the woman screams for help. You tell your buddy to call 911, as you draw your concealed firearm. You tell the man very sternly to let her go, and to back away. The man complies, but now what?

I'm not advocating that CCW holders should have powers to arrest, but what would you do in the above situation after the man backs away? For this reason, I think carrying a simple pair of zip tie cuffs could do a lot of help. You could order the man to the ground, and have your friend secure his hands. There's a lot of what ifs, but the main thing I think is important is putting your gun away, so it's not out when the police arrive. You could then have the man sit while you and your friend keep eye on him.

What kind of legalities would there be regarding this situation? I think zip tie cuffs are great. They're small, can be purchased or made easily, and are ideal for securing a person temporarily. We use them in the military all the time.

Then of course come the what ifs, like:
-What if you're alone?
-What if the person tries to escape?
-What will the police think when they get there?

Looking for some people's opinions and/or advice, if they've been in a similar situation.

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First--don't interfere unless the individual clearly has a weapon in hand or the life of the victim is clearly and incontrovertibly at risk of death or serious bodily injury and you have a witness who can and will testify to that. Remember--CYOA.

Second, domestic violence calls and domestic disturbances are some of the single most violent encounters you can find yourself in--for two reasons--first both parties to the disturbance are completely unpredictable, and second--the woman who now appears to you to be the victim could quickly turn on you and you will be fighting not one, but two assailants.

Third--even if you do call the police, by the time the police arrive the woman will more than likely start supporting her husband/boyfriend, which means she will testify that you were the aggressor, her husband was an innocent saint, and you just over reacted and came charging in with gun in hand acting like some Rambo--meaning you will go to jail.

If you want to call the police in this type of situation--do so, but if you interfere in it yourself when there is absolutely no evidence to support that the life of the woman is at risk or if the man does not clearly have a weapon visible and you don't even a hint of a plausible self-defense claim on your part and you have no witnesses to back your contention that--yes her life did appear to be in immediate danger of death or seriously bodily injury which would justify your interference--then you would be just begging for trouble to rain down on you from all sides.

My opinion.

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protector84 wrote:

I would probably draw on the attacker. At least according to Arizona law, grabbing someone and forcing them into a building, vehicle, or anywhere else is considered felony kidnapping.

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It is? You mean the police in Arizona regularly commit felony kidnapping?

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Sheesh. You guys have no sense of humor! :banghead:

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Streetbikerr6 wrote:

They both actually were not drunk. The blue shirt was getting breakfast at 4 am. The white shirt just started talkingcrap for being looked at, then he wouldnt stop talking crap. The white shirt guy could have been hospitalized if we hadn't stopped it. The blue shirt guy had way too much anger and adrenaline/strength at that moment. It turned from self-defense to wanting to damage the guy as much as he could the minute I got up. I pretty much assessed the white guy before and after, and he truely did not seem drunk. When I ran up the blue shirt guy had his finger in the white shirt guys eye socket. It was really gruesome and bloody. The white shirt guy also had a lump on his forhead the size of a golf ball... not kidding. Just thinking about it makes me queasy.

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Wow. It sounds like it would have worked itself out just the way the guy in the white shirt wanted it to. I'm sticking with your advice. Thanks.

What were the restaurant staff doing about all this?