What would you do in this scenario?

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TaftPRead wrote:

Took this from another forum, only had one reply so I wanted to see what you guys have to say about it.

Here's the scenario:

You're at a friend's house, celebrating his birthday. You're currently carrying, and therefore only drinking water and soda. Nobody else knows you're carrying, and when asked why you're not drinking, you respond with the fact that you are the driver.

Fast forward a couple hours. Party's dying down, so you and your friend decide to leave and head back home. As you're both leaving the house, you hear a domestic disturbance next door that's pretty heated. A woman storms out of the house in a hurried fashion, followed by the husband. He grabs her arm, while yelling at her to get back in the house. She tries to free her arm, but can't. The man wrenches her arm in a painful way, attempting to drag her back into the house.

Seeing both of you next door, watching the event, the woman screams for help. You tell your buddy to call 911, as you draw your concealed firearm. You tell the man very sternly to let her go, and to back away. The man complies, but now what?

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I would immediately tell the man, "Sorry, dude. I screwed up in drawing this here handgun. I just wasn't thinking too well and I just, well, I just thought I would play copper. Really, I was just concerned about the woman. I sincerely apologize. Just lost my head, I guess. Why don't we just keep this whole thing between us boys, OK? No need to get the law all nosy about this. Whaddya say, pardner?





TaftPRead wrote:

I'm not advocating that CCW holders should have powers to arrest, but what would you do in the above situation after the man backs away?

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Same answer as above.



TaftPRead wrote:

For this reason, I think carrying a simple pair of zip tie cuffs could do a lot of help. You could order the man to the ground, and have your friend secure his hands. There's a lot of what ifs, but the main thing I think is important is putting your gun away, so it's not out when the police arrive. You could then have the man sit while you and your friend keep eye on him.

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I think this is extremely flawed speculation. Loonie kazoonie stuff...





TaftPRead wrote:

What kind of legalities would there be regarding this situation? I think zip tie cuffs are great. They're small, can be purchased or made easily, and are ideal for securing a person temporarily. We use them in the military all the time.

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Depends on the state, municipality, and target's willingness to hire legal counsel to sue your azz.



TaftPRead wrote:

Then of course come the what ifs, like:
-What if you're alone?
-What if the person tries to escape?
-What will the police think when they get there?

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These are good, very good, questions to ponder over. BEFORE the ole pistola comes out. Not after....



TaftPRead wrote:

Looking for some people's opinions and/or advice, if they've been in a similar situation.

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I hope you pay attention to the opinions and advice expressed previously. No need to go through humiliation and legal trauma or becoming a goof with a gun.

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Ironbar wrote:

Sheesh. You guys have no sense of humor! :banghead:

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I actually have a wonderful sense of humor

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I had just gotten off from a graveyard shift and just gotten to sleep when I was awakened by shouting and door slamming coming from next door. I got up and looked out my bedroom window and saw the guy next door grabbing his girlfriend(and baby mama) very forcefully by the arm. She was screaming for him to let her go and trying to get to her jeep parked in the driveway. This fine gentleman was a known gang member and suspected drug dealer who the local PD had been keeping a very close eye on for some time. I threw on a pair of shorts and went to my gun cabinet and grabbed my 1911 which I kept locked and loaded in an IWB holster in the cabinet and slipped it into my waistband. I then grabbed the phone and dialed 911 and went downstairs for a better view. I notified the dispatcher of the situation and full description of the involved parties and as well my description and a description of my weapon. I stayed on the line and kept eyes on the situation until he reached down and grabbed something and raised it up over his head as if to strike her with it. It turns out later it was her car keys, but at the time I did not know that. I reached back for my weapon( still inside the house) and as I was about to break leather and walk out the front door I hear PD ordering the suspect to "Drop it and get on the ground!" He was booked on 273.5 (Felony domestic violence for those of you fortunate enough not to live in the Peoples Socialist Republic of Kalifornia) and I never saw him at that residence again, thankfully. Had PD not shown up when they did I would have drawn, exited my house, drawn down on him and ordered him to the ground based on the fact that I reasonably perceived that he had the intent coupled with the present ability to inflict death or grave bodily harm on the victim.
Domestic violence calls are bad, bad, bad calls. In fact they are one of the most dangerous calls a cop will ever run. Every cop I know hates running them. My advice is not to get involved unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to save a life. In my case, I saw black plastic and metal and thought it was a knife he had picked up instead of her car keys.

In the scenario mentioned in the original post you're violating a doctrine called "escalation of force". You've heard the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"? Well this is more like don't bring a gun to a fist fight. fist vs. fist = OK, non-lethal weapon vs. non-lethal weapon=OK, lethal force vs. lethal force=OK, lethal force vs. anything other than lethal force=BAD. That's not to say the other person has to have a gun in order for you to perceive they have the ability to use lethal force. If the guy has a karate uniform on and he says "I'm a 6th degree black belt and I can kill you with my bare hands" that would constitute the present ability to inflict death or grave bodily harm. If you are 5'4" and 100lbs. soaking wet, and he's 6'5" and a muscular 350lbs. THAT would constitute the "present ability to inflict death or grave bodily harm" also. Simply drawing a weapon is introducing lethal force to the situation, so you'd better be prepared to clearly articulate how and why you felt lethal force was your only option.

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I had a simular problem last summer.2 friends and myself were coming out of Quizno's after lunch. We heard screaming and yelling and in the parking lot a man had a woman by the arm by her car and was hurting her. I told my friends to call 911 as I headed towards them. As I got closer he got into the truck of the car and pulled out a baseball bat. This really worried me but I had not drawn my gun at this point. She tried to get in the car and get away but he grabbed her again. By now I was close enough to get his attention by yelling at him to release her, my hand on my weapon but not drawn. I think he realized what I had and let her go and at the same time the police showed up. I was questioned and told that I did the correct thing by not drawing my weapon at that point. Now if he had started hitting her with the bat, I would have drawn and if necessary I would have taken a shot. Thank God I didn't have to. I carry a weapon but always pray that I never have to use it in any manner other than what I did that day.

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Diesel-n-Lead wrote:

fist vs. fist = OK, non-lethal weapon vs. non-lethal weapon=OK, lethal force vs. lethal force=OK, lethal force vs. anything other than lethal force=BAD.

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Exactly. Put very succintly.

Once again, here is real world support for HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense[suP]©[/suP] :

It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



Please, to all who read this fine forum..... Remember that HPCSD[suP]©[/suP] always applies.

Especially,when that "knife" you see turns out to be a key ring.

Simply drawing a weapon is introducing lethal force to the situation, so you'd better be prepared to clearly articulate how and why you felt lethal force was your only option.

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Great advice.

Excellent story, DnL. Thanks.

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I would not have gotten involved in either case: the hypothetical case or the restaurant fight. In addition, I certainly would have had my gun with me in the restaurant - it's not doing you much good locked in the car!

In the hypothetical case, short of the woman being SERIOUSLY injured, I wouldn't have done anything except call the police and being a good witness. Chances are very good that the couple have fights like this all the time and that if you get involved, they will both turn on you.

In the restaurant case, once a fight breaks out, I would have walked outside (or at least walkedclose to the door) while calling the police. You don't know if either of these people had a gun or knife and getting involved could have gotten you killed. You also don't know all the facts in this situation.Did these people know each other? Were they continuing a long-standingfeud? Were they rival gang bangers? Did one rip the other one off for drugs? Why put yourself in the middle of an unclear situation? If you want to be the police, go to the police academy and get a job as a cop. Playing cop is a bad idea.

Once you did get involved and got theguy to leave the restaurant,Ithink it was a HUGE MISTAKE to remain unarmed. That guy couldhave easily walked back into the restaurant shooting. Why weren't you carrying in the first place? A gun in the car is....WORTHLESS!

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In my case at Quizno's the couple was well dressed and in a nice car. Another lady was on her phone and was parked about 100 ft away and the man stepped towards her enough once to make her get back in her car and move futher away. I could not and would not just stand by and watch anyone beat up on someone else especially a man against a woman with a ball bat. Sorry it may get me in trouble one day but your not much of a man to me if you allow something like that to happen. As stated above I had a gun compared to his bat which I thought that is all he had and I wasn't going to allow him to get close enough to use it. The Police did tell me that I handled the problem in the correct way.

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propertymanager wrote:

I would not have gotten involved in either case: the hypothetical case or the restaurant fight. In addition, I certainly would have had my gun with me in the restaurant - it's not doing you much good locked in the car!

In the hypothetical case, short of the woman being SERIOUSLY injured, I wouldn't have done anything except call the police and being a good witness. Chances are very good that the couple have fights like this all the time and that if you get involved, they will both turn on you.

In the restaurant case, once a fight breaks out, I would have walked outside (or at least walkedclose to the door) while calling the police. You don't know if either of these people had a gun or knife and getting involved could have gotten you killed. You also don't know all the facts in this situation.Did these people know each other? Were they continuing a long-standingfeud? Were they rival gang bangers? Did one rip the other one off for drugs? Why put yourself in the middle of an unclear situation? If you want to be the police, go to the police academy and get a job as a cop. Playing cop is a bad idea.

Once you did get involved and got theguy to leave the restaurant,Ithink it was a HUGE MISTAKE to remain unarmed. That guy couldhave easily walked back into the restaurant shooting. Why weren't you carrying in the first place? A gun in the car is....WORTHLESS!

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While I agree that we, as a society, don't need a bunch of Paul Kerseys running around, I think that we have an obligation to get involved when we feel that someone else's life is in danger. There was a story not too long ago of a woman who was abducted from a Target parking lot in broad daylight. She was screaming for help and everyone just assumed it was some sort of boyfriend-girlfriend fight or something. She ended up being murdered. It's a personal decision for each individual when and how much to get involved, but I don't know if I could live with myself if I were one of those people in the Target parking lot who just looked the other way. I don't think it's "playing cop" to get involved when someone has a baseball bat and is acting physically agressive towards a woman. I think I would have done the same thing Wendell did.

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Well said DNL. That's where I fall, not wanting to play cop but couldn't just stand there either. Folks in our nation do enough of that already.

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why did the person in the article draw his concealed weapon ? his life was not in peril. HE FAILED.

he should have Walked over and had a 'talk' with the woman beater, but left gun in concealed holster. until such time that hostile woman beater presented his own weapon.

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While I generally would rather call 911 and let the police deal with emergencies, I for one am really getting increasingly tired of the crime in society and the fact that little is done about it. How many of us have been victims of crimes such as theft, burglary, robbery, and other property crimes and actually seen any of our stolen stuff again? Not very many. I'm sure that many of us have also been victims of violent crime and are lucky if the perpetrators were ever caught and if so if they actually received a proper sentence. I have known too many other people who have been victims of violent as well as property crimes and the story is pretty much the same.

I don't think that the cops are useless but the problems are that they are stretched so thin that they rarely get there in time to catch anyone and everything is always so tied up in the courts that you are lucky if anything gets accomplished.

I'd rather have a peaceful experience each time I go out in public to do whatever I'm doing but even I have witnessed far too many disturbances and criminal behavior in a multitude of environments to make me quite uncomfortable. If there is a situation and I'm not really sure what is going on and my involvement could be more risky than it is worth then I will certainly be a good witness and call the police. However, if it is clear cut and my involvement would be relatively easy, I will handle it. Since I tend to carry quite a bit of equipment on me, I have enough tools for enough situations. As much as I'd rather not have to get involved, I'm simply getting tired of the rampant crime everywhere with seemingly nothing being done about it. So if I see some psycho boyfriend screaming and yelling and threatening to beat his girl with a ball bat, I will simply tell him one time to place the bat on the ground and put his hands in the air. If he continues to approach with the ball bat, he will be receiving 15 holes in his body. I'd rather not have to do this but it is a simple way of getting a criminal off of the street permenately while saving the taxpayers money.

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protector84 wrote:

While I generally would rather call 911 and let the police deal with emergencies, I for one am really getting increasingly tired of the crime in society and the fact that little is done about it. How many of us have been victims of crimes such as theft, burglary, robbery, and other property crimes and actually seen any of our stolen stuff again? Not very many. I'm sure that many of us have also been victims of violent crime and are lucky if the perpetrators were ever caught and if so if they actually received a proper sentence. I have known too many other people who have been victims of violent as well as property crimes and the story is pretty much the same.

I don't think that the cops are useless but the problems are that they are stretched so thin that they rarely get there in time to catch anyone and everything is always so tied up in the courts that you are lucky if anything gets accomplished.

I'd rather have a peaceful experience each time I go out in public to do whatever I'm doing but even I have witnessed far too many disturbances and criminal behavior in a multitude of environments to make me quite uncomfortable. If there is a situation and I'm not really sure what is going on and my involvement could be more risky than it is worth then I will certainly be a good witness and call the police. However, if it is clear cut and my involvement would be relatively easy, I will handle it. Since I tend to carry quite a bit of equipment on me, I have enough tools for enough situations. As much as I'd rather not have to get involved, I'm simply getting tired of the rampant crime everywhere with seemingly nothing being done about it. So if I see some psycho boyfriend screaming and yelling and threatening to beat his girl with a ball bat, I will simply tell him one time to place the bat on the ground and put his hands in the air. If he continues to approach with the ball bat, he will be receiving 15 holes in his body. I'd rather not have to do this but it is a simple way of getting a criminal off of the street permenately while saving the taxpayers money.

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i can see that course of action. if guy has, baseball bat, axe, chain saw, battle mace,gun etc..and intends to kill someone, i would feel compelled to aid in the defense of said potentially victimized person. i would deal with the outcome later.

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simmonsjoe wrote:

Common theme here. You seem to take the drawing of the firearm for granted. This is the error in your scenario. There was no need to draw. Drawing had the potential to escalate the situation unnecessarily. I agree with markand about this post being a possible attempt to get a rise from this board. Fortunately, we are a fairly intelligent lot with decent analytical skills.

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You nailed it. There was no need to display or even 'warn/inform' of a gun if such was concealed. A 911 call and observation is enough.

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Being an early poster and reading the rest- I think we have WAY to many "vigilante" types around us.

A vigilante is someone who illegally punishes someone for perceived offenses, or participates in a group which metes out extrajudicial punishment to such a person.

The key word here is illegal. Each man/woman here that wants to get involved and "draw on the guy" has a responsibility to research his/her state's citizen's arrest laws.

For example, New York's laws provide that anyone (even illegal aliens) can make an arrest for any violation of the law in the persons presence. California's laws provide that someone may arrest another person ONLY for felony offenses committed in their presence.

So..In California - If the man grabbed the woman by the wrist, in the parking lot.. Attempted to blah blah blah.. Grabbed a bat from the truck.. You draw on the guy. The cops show up and EVEN IF THE WOMAN IS WITH YOU and testifies that the guy was blah blah blah- The state of California prosecutes misdemeanor domestic violence
charges as well as extreme felony cases. The woman has bruised wrists... is scared.. that's literally IT.. The other guy gets a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. Nothing VERY extreme (compared to other situations).. it's just a bruised wrist- no blood- bat was never used- no knives- no fists- no blood remember. You can get SCREWED BIG TIME in this case in civil court and criminal court.

If the situation took place in New York - and you stepped in- "draw on the guy"- cops show up- You are most likely SAFE and NOT SCREWED here as the man will be charged with, at least, some crime.



Sometimes, people on this board, literally scare the Hell out of me. Don't act before you think.

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cscitney87 wrote:

Being an early poster and reading the rest- I think we have WAY to many "vigilante" types around us.

A vigilante is someone who illegally punishes someone for perceived offenses, or participates in a group which metes out extrajudicial punishment to such a person.

The key word here is illegal. Each man/woman here that wants to get involved and "draw on the guy" has a responsibility to research his/her state's citizen's arrest laws.

For example, New York's laws provide that anyone (even illegal aliens) can make an arrest for any violation of the law in the persons presence. California's laws provide that someone may arrest another person ONLY for felony offenses committed in their presence.

So..In California - If the man grabbed the woman by the wrist, in the parking lot.. Attempted to blah blah blah.. Grabbed a bat from the truck.. You draw on the guy. The cops show up and EVEN IF THE WOMAN IS WITH YOU and testifies that the guy was blah blah blah- The state of California prosecutes misdemeanor domestic violence
charges as well as extreme felony cases. The woman has bruised wrists... is scared.. that's literally IT.. The other guy gets a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. Nothing VERY extreme (compared to other situations).. it's just a bruised wrist- no blood- bat was never used- no knives- no fists- no blood remember. You can get SCREWED BIG TIME in this case in civil court and criminal court.

If the situation took place in New York - and you stepped in- "draw on the guy"- cops show up- You are most likely SAFE and NOT SCREWED here as the man will be charged with, at least, some crime.



Sometimes, people on this board, literally scare the Hell out of me. Don't act before you think.

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Any self respecting vigilantes out there don't Arrest the bad guy, they wack them out.

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cscitney87 wrote:

Being an early poster and reading the rest- I think we have WAY to many "vigilante" types around us.

A vigilante is someone who illegally punishes someone for perceived offenses, or participates in a group which metes out extrajudicial punishment to such a person.

The key word here is illegal. Each man/woman here that wants to get involved and "draw on the guy" has a responsibility to research his/her state's citizen's arrest laws.

For example, New York's laws provide that anyone (even illegal aliens) can make an arrest for any violation of the law in the persons presence. California's laws provide that someone may arrest another person ONLY for felony offenses committed in their presence.

So..In California - If the man grabbed the woman by the wrist, in the parking lot.. Attempted to blah blah blah.. Grabbed a bat from the truck.. You draw on the guy. The cops show up and EVEN IF THE WOMAN IS WITH YOU and testifies that the guy was blah blah blah- The state of California prosecutes misdemeanor domestic violence
charges as well as extreme felony cases. The woman has bruised wrists... is scared.. that's literally IT.. The other guy gets a misdemeanor domestic violence charge. Nothing VERY extreme (compared to other situations).. it's just a bruised wrist- no blood- bat was never used- no knives- no fists- no blood remember. You can get SCREWED BIG TIME in this case in civil court and criminal court.

If the situation took place in New York - and you stepped in- "draw on the guy"- cops show up- You are most likely SAFE and NOT SCREWED here as the man will be charged with, at least, some crime.



Sometimes, people on this board, literally scare the Hell out of me. Don't act before you think.

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A+ on the vigilante comments. The last thing we need is anyone making trouble for everyone. We all know how the media loves to lump us all in with the most extreme behavior they can find. That being said, I take issue with your take on the California scenario. PC 273.5 says:

"(a) Any person who willfully inflicts upon a person who is
his or her spouse, former spouse, cohabitant, former cohabitant, or
the mother or father of his or her child, corporal injury resulting
in a traumatic condition, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction
thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
two, three, or four years, or in a county jail for not more than one
year, or by a fine of up to six thousand dollars ($6,000) or by both
that fine and imprisonment."


The practical application standard for this for every LEA with which I am acquainted is "visible sign of injury". Ergo fight between individuals covered under 273.5(a) + visible sign of injury such as a bruise, scratch, or bleeding= MANDATORY felony arrest. What the prosecutors do with it after that is a different story, but for the purposes of justification of citizens arrest you are covered.

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Thanks and that being said, generally, my point still stands. Specially along the felony or Not felony lines. Be careful everyone- that's what I'm saying. Know what you're getting into- whether it's a felony or not.

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suntzu wrote:

TaftPRead wrote:

Took this from another forum, only had one reply so I wanted to see what you guys have to say about it.

Here's the scenario:

You're at a friend's house, celebrating his birthday. You're currently carrying, and therefore only drinking water and soda. Nobody else knows you're carrying, and when asked why you're not drinking, you respond with the fact that you are the driver.

Fast forward a couple hours. Party's dying down, so you and your friend decide to leave and head back home. As you're both leaving the house, you hear a domestic disturbance next door that's pretty heated. A woman storms out of the house in a hurried fashion, followed by the husband. He grabs her arm, while yelling at her to get back in the house. She tries to free her arm, but can't. The man wrenches her arm in a painful way, attempting to drag her back into the house.

Seeing both of you next door, watching the event, the woman screams for help. You tell your buddy to call 911, as you draw your concealed firearm. You tell the man very sternly to let her go, and to back away. The man complies, but now what?

I'm not advocating that CCW holders should have powers to arrest, but what would you do in the above situation after the man backs away? For this reason, I think carrying a simple pair of zip tie cuffs could do a lot of help. You could order the man to the ground, and have your friend secure his hands. There's a lot of what ifs, but the main thing I think is important is putting your gun away, so it's not out when the police arrive. You could then have the man sit while you and your friend keep eye on him.

What kind of legalities would there be regarding this situation? I think zip tie cuffs are great. They're small, can be purchased or made easily, and are ideal for securing a person temporarily. We use them in the military all the time.

Then of course come the what ifs, like:
-What if you're alone?
-What if the person tries to escape?
-What will the police think when they get there?

Looking for some people's opinions and/or advice, if they've been in a similar situation.

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First--don't interfere unless the individual clearly has a weapon in hand or the life of the victim is clearly and incontrovertibly at risk of death or serious bodily injury and you have a witness who can and will testify to that. Remember--CYOA.

Second, domestic violence calls and domestic disturbances are some of the single most violent encounters you can find yourself in--for two reasons--first both parties to the disturbance are completely unpredictable, and second--the woman who now appears to you to be the victim could quickly turn on you and you will be fighting not one, but two assailants.

Third--even if you do call the police, by the time the police arrive the woman will more than likely start supporting her husband/boyfriend, which means she will testify that you were the aggressor, her husband was an innocent saint, and you just over reacted and came charging in with gun in hand acting like some Rambo--meaning you will go to jail.

If you want to call the police in this type of situation--do so, but if you interfere in it yourself when there is absolutely no evidence to support that the life of the woman is at risk or if the man does not clearly have a weapon visible and you don't even a hint of a plausible self-defense claim on your part and you have no witnesses to back your contention that--yes her life did appear to be in immediate danger of death or seriously bodily injury which would justify your interference--then you would be just begging for trouble to rain down on you from all sides.

My opinion.

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I totally agree.

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So you pull the gun and get the man to back away. The girlfriend runs to her car and drives off at a high rate of speed while you hold the man at bay with your weapon.Only then you find out the guy was doing his best to stop his extremely drunk girlfriend from leaving in her car.

The girlfriend gets less than a mile down the road before she hits a minivan with a family of six in it, head on. All seven people in the accident are killed. Congrats, you are not only going to jail for your actions, you are indirectly responsible for the deaths of 7 people.

Don't draw unless you know you need to defend yourself or another from death or serious bodily harm

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1FASTC4 wrote:

So you pull the gun and get the man to back away. The girlfriend runs to her car and drives off at a high rate of speed while you hold the man at bay with your weapon.Only then you find out the guy was doing his best to stop his extremely drunk girlfriend from leaving in her car.

The girlfriend gets less than a mile down the road before she hits a minivan with a family of six in it, head on. All seven people in the accident are killed. Congrats, you are not only going to jail for your actions, you are indirectly responsible for the deaths of 7 people.

Don't draw unless you know you need to defend yourself or another from death or serious bodily harm

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Not an unlikely scenario at all. In the OP if you ask experienced LEO they will probably tell you that the likelyhood of the woman coming back out of the house with a gun to defend her husband is quite high. Getting in the middle of somestic disputes is a good way to find out that the wife actually expects here husband to beat her and will defend him even in the middle ofa fight. Sad but true and whether it is in the genes or upbringing doesn't matter. In the case where the husband was about to get serious with the baseball bat is different but the moral is just be sure of what you are doing.

There are too many people and too many on this board that think of a gun as a magic wand or something that you pull out and all problems are solved. When you pull out your gun the problems are just starting. Just like in the OP you pull your gun and the fellow runs or perhaps you think he is pulling his own gun but it turns out to be his handkerchief. What do you do then?