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Thread: HB 505: Concealed handguns; restaurants

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...?101+sum+HB505

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    Concealed handguns; restaurants. Prohibits a person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of a restaurant or club from consuming an alcoholic beverage while on the premises.

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    TFred wrote:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...?101+sum+HB505

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    Concealed handguns; restaurants. Prohibits a person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of a restaurant or club from consuming an alcoholic beverage while on the premises.
    Ugh, more freedom limiting laws.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Another poorly worded bill. Eliminate the word "concealed." As written OCers can still drink. I'd rather have a blanket prohibition, despite some who think it should be allowed. To each his own opinion.

    The law still allows you to show up drunk, just not to drink while there.

    Is there a law that makes it illegal to be drunk and armed? If so, this bill is redundant.
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    How in the heck do you enforce someone not drinking while they have an object on them that is "hidden from common observation?"

    If I pull into a restaurant with a VCDL sticker on my vehicle and have a beer with my meal, is that sufficient reason to search me to see if I'm carrying?

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    Another poorly worded bill. Eliminate the word "concealed." As written OCers can still drink. I'd rather have a blanket prohibition, despite some who think it should be allowed. To each his own opinion.

    The law still allows you to show up drunk, just not to drink while there.

    Is there a law that makes it illegal to be drunk and armed? If so, this bill is redundant.
    Yes. It is illegal to be intoxicated while armed in VA.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    This bill is the less-desirable, but still progressively liberating, bill.

    Can't drink while armed, CHP. Gonna have to VA tuck if I want a beer.

    Oh, wait. I OC anyhow.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    HB 505 passed the House with a good margin, 67-27.

    There were amendments, the changed paragraph now reads:

    (ETA: Oops, this BB software doesn't do strikethrough... the red text is struck, the green text is added.)

    J3. No person shall carry who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shall prohibit any sworn apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer or any a retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

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    TFred wrote:
    HB 505 passed the House with a good margin, 67-27.

    There were amendments, the changed paragraph now reads:

    (ETA: Oops, this BB software doesn't do strikethrough... the red text is struck, the green text is added.)

    J3. No person shall carry who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shall prohibit any sworn apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer or any a retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
    Didn't hear about these new changes. So if I am adding this up in my head right... CCW permit holders are now allowed to carry into bars and restaurants but just can't drink while carrying inside? Only law enforcement can drink with their guns concealed? I'm going to have to do some more research.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    NovaCop10 wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    HB 505 passed the House with a good margin, 67-27.

    There were amendments, the changed paragraph now reads:

    (ETA: Oops, this BB software doesn't do strikethrough... the red text is struck, the green text is added.)

    J3. No person shall carry who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shall prohibit any sworn apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer or any a retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
    Didn't hear about these new changes. So if I am adding this up in my head right... CCW permit holders are now allowed to carry into bars and restaurants but just can't drink while carrying inside? Only law enforcement can drink with their guns concealed? I'm going to have to do some more research.
    No, the red text is "struck", or deleted. As the law reads now, no person shall carry a concealed weapon etc... The new law under consideration says no person who carries ... shall drink.

    Imagine the red text as having a line through it. This BB won't do that.

    TFred


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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    So if you remove the red text the current billreads as:

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shallapply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer ora retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute.
    Correct?
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    Gonna have to VA tuck if I want a beer.
    Of course there is always the option of not drinking in public while armed and avoid creating the perception that all gun owners drink while carrying.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    ed wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    Gonna have to VA tuck if I want a beer.
    Of course there is always the option of not drinking in public while armed and avoid creating the perception that all gun owners drink while carrying.
    I agree with Ed. It sends a bad message and petentially opens one to greater civil liability. Also, don't "feed" the antis.

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    Wolf_shadow wrote:
    So if you remove the red text the current billreads as:

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shallapply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer ora retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute.
    Correct?
    Yep!

    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    gis wrote:
    I agree with Ed. It sends a bad message and petentially opens one to greater civil liability. Also, don't "feed" the antis.
    I appreciate your perspective, but I do not share it.

    Went out last night for sushi with my wife and son. OC'ed. Had a beer with my supper

    No problems. No funny looks. Very enjoyable evening.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    wylde007 wrote:
    gis wrote:
    I agree with Ed. It sends a bad message and petentially opens one to greater civil liability. Also, don't "feed" the antis.
    I appreciate your perspective, but I do not share it.

    Went out last night for sushi with my wife and son. OC'ed. Had a beer with my supper

    No problems. No funny looks. Very enjoyable evening.
    It isn't just about "No funny looks".

    Think about why you carry in the 1st place. And if you needed to employ your weapon in a self defense situation. The investigation would reveal that you had been drinking. Whether you had notover-indulged would be for you to prove, and since there is no standard blood alcohol limit which applies to DWA (Drunk While Armed), you'd beleaving yourself open to some potentially serious criminal charges and some serious civil liability.

    Just my .02
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    2a4all wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    gis wrote:
    I agree with Ed. It sends a bad message and petentially opens one to greater civil liability. Also, don't "feed" the antis.
    I appreciate your perspective, but I do not share it.

    Went out last night for sushi with my wife and son. OC'ed. Had a beer with my supper

    No problems. No funny looks. Very enjoyable evening.
    It isn't just about "No funny looks".

    Think about why you carry in the 1st place. And if you needed to employ your weapon in a self defense situation. The investigation would reveal that you had been drinking. Whether you had notover-indulged would be for you to prove, and since there is no standard blood alcohol limit which applies to DWA (Drunk While Armed), you'd beleaving yourself open to some potentially serious criminal charges and some serious civil liability.

    Just my .02
    I totally agree, BUT, if leos can carry and drink, what kind of a message and or problems will that create? I understand why we shouldn't drink and carry (it makes complete sense). Why not just make it NO DRINKING WHILE CARRYING PERIOD! Nobody should be able to reguardless of who they are. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I were in a bar/restuarantand a fight or something broke out where one person pulled a knife (hopefully not a gun but you never know these days) and a leo, while under the influence, drew/fired his/her gun and an innocent person was wounded or died.How would the law suits be filed and who all would be sued? The leo, the city, the state?

    How would you feel if you out to dinner a leo who had been drinking and is carrying started asking you a bunch of questions about you CCing in a bar/restuarant in which you were drinking soda and water only?


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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    I'm aware of what some people "think" it is and isn't about.

    If I have to deploy my personal defensive weapon and I have been drinking then I will deal with the consequences.

    You feel that I shouldn't have a drink when I carry. Others feel we shouldn't carry at all.

    Now, to me, you're no better than them if you believe for one minute that your personal opinion should override my rights under the law for some "appearance".

    Think about the hypocrisy of that for a minute. Trust me, I understand and appreciate your perception and that it is commonly held by many of my open-carrying brethren... but it is not held by all of them and it is not the law. It is an opinion and an opinion only.
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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    9MM Owner wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    gis wrote:
    I agree with Ed. It sends a bad message and petentially opens one to greater civil liability. Also, don't "feed" the antis.
    I appreciate your perspective, but I do not share it.

    Went out last night for sushi with my wife and son. OC'ed. Had a beer with my supper

    No problems. No funny looks. Very enjoyable evening.
    It isn't just about "No funny looks".

    Think about why you carry in the 1st place. And if you needed to employ your weapon in a self defense situation. The investigation would reveal that you had been drinking. Whether you had notover-indulged would be for you to prove, and since there is no standard blood alcohol limit which applies to DWA (Drunk While Armed), you'd beleaving yourself open to some potentially serious criminal charges and some serious civil liability.

    Just my .02
    I totally agree, BUT, if leos can carry and drink, what kind of a message and or problems will that create? I understand why we shouldn't drink and carry (it makes complete sense). Why not just make it NO DRINKING WHILE CARRYING PERIOD! Nobody should be able to reguardless of who they are. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I were in a bar/restuarantand a fight or something broke out where one person pulled a knife (hopefully not a gun but you never know these days) and a leo, while under the influence, drew/fired his/her gun and an innocent person was wounded or died.How would the law suits be filed and who all would be sued? The leo, the city, the state?

    How would you feel if you out to dinner a leo who had been drinking and is carrying started asking you a bunch of questions about you CCing in a bar/restuarant in which you were drinking soda and water only?
    I wouldn't oppose a total ban on alcohol consumption while OC/CCing. As for lawsuits, that's for the lawyers to figure out, but unless you're a victim, you likely wouldn't have standing.

    Why would a LEO be asking me questions in the 1st place? How would s/heknow I was CCing? As I only drink water with my meals, I don't see much of a conversation starter.

    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Yep sounds good to me. The only exception I can think of is when LEOs must work undercover and drink to keep their cover.

    I was in court once and witnessed a case like that. The officer testified that he sipped part of a mixed drink, but the rest he spit back out. The defense attorney tried pretty hard to impune his testimony as being under the influence but it didn't fly. The case was Suffolk PD busting a nip joint.
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    Regular Member gis's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    9MM Owner wrote:
    2a4all wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    gis wrote:
    I agree with Ed. It sends a bad message and petentially opens one to greater civil liability. Also, don't "feed" the antis.
    I appreciate your perspective, but I do not share it.

    Went out last night for sushi with my wife and son. OC'ed. Had a beer with my supper

    No problems. No funny looks. Very enjoyable evening.
    It isn't just about "No funny looks".

    Think about why you carry in the 1st place. And if you needed to employ your weapon in a self defense situation. The investigation would reveal that you had been drinking. Whether you had notover-indulged would be for you to prove, and since there is no standard blood alcohol limit which applies to DWA (Drunk While Armed), you'd beleaving yourself open to some potentially serious criminal charges and some serious civil liability.

    Just my .02
    I totally agree, BUT, if leos can carry and drink, what kind of a message and or problems will that create? I understand why we shouldn't drink and carry (it makes complete sense). Why not just make it NO DRINKING WHILE CARRYING PERIOD! Nobody should be able to reguardless of who they are. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I were in a bar/restuarantand a fight or something broke out where one person pulled a knife (hopefully not a gun but you never know these days) and a leo, while under the influence, drew/fired his/her gun and an innocent person was wounded or died.How would the law suits be filed and who all would be sued? The leo, the city, the state?

    How would you feel if you out to dinner a leo who had been drinking and is carrying started asking you a bunch of questions about you CCing in a bar/restuarant in which you were drinking soda and water only?
    I wouldn't oppose a total ban on alcohol consumption while OC/CCing. As for lawsuits, that's for the lawyers to figure out, but unless you're a victim, you likely wouldn't have standing.

    Why would a LEO be asking me questions in the 1st place? How would s/heknow I was CCing? As I only drink water with my meals, I don't see much of a conversation starter.
    I didn't say that I like the current wording of the law. There is nothing in the LEOs training that qualifies him/her to carry while under the influence of alcohol. Whether one is a LEO or a civilian, I think that drinking and carrying (open or concealed) isa bad idea. I was a LEO in a state where drinking and carrying was prohibited whether you were a LEO or not. There were both LEOs and civilians who ignored the law. Most got away with it, but a small percentage got into trouble including getting sued civilly, losing their jobs and pensions. I guess, it's up to the individual, but I don't need a drink that badly.

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    Since I'm not exactly familiar with this what does it mean when it says Senate: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice? Is this a good or bad thing? When does the senate vote on it? Anyone know? I see it says they meet Wed. again.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    Since I'm not exactly familiar with this what does it mean when it says Senate: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice? Is this a good or bad thing? When does the senate vote on it? Anyone know? I see it says they meet Wed. again.
    It's passed the House, and is now going through a similar process in the Senate. At this point, it's neither good nor bad, but just the process.

    Generally it is expected to have a tougher road in the Senate than the House because the Senate has a Democratic majority.

    The bill made it out of the GA last year to be vetoed by Governor Kaine. I suspect we will lose some votes in the Senate this year because they knew last year that Kaine would veto it.

    Anyone can follow the committee and subcommittee schedules via the LIS web site, and even go to Richmond and attend the meetings and speak in favor or against a bill. It's a very educational process, and I see it as a privilege not to be taken for granted.

    TFred


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    TFred wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    Since I'm not exactly familiar with this what does it mean when it says Senate: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice? Is this a good or bad thing? When does the senate vote on it? Anyone know? I see it says they meet Wed. again.
    It's passed the House, and is now going through a similar process in the Senate. At this point, it's neither good nor bad, but just the process.

    Generally it is expected to have a tougher road in the Senate than the House because the Senate has a Democratic majority.

    The bill made it out of the GA last year to be vetoed by Governor Kaine. I suspect we will lose some votes in the Senate this year because they knew last year that Kaine would veto it.

    Anyone can follow the committee and subcommittee schedules via the LIS web site, and even go to Richmond and attend the meetings and speak in favor or against a bill. It's a very educational process, and I see it as a privilege not to be taken for granted.

    TFred
    I saw it said the next meeting was Wednesday. Does this mean the senate will vote on it then? Or does that just mean it will be discussed again then?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    hometheaterman wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    Since I'm not exactly familiar with this what does it mean when it says Senate: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice? Is this a good or bad thing? When does the senate vote on it? Anyone know? I see it says they meet Wed. again.
    It's passed the House, and is now going through a similar process in the Senate. At this point, it's neither good nor bad, but just the process.

    Generally it is expected to have a tougher road in the Senate than the House because the Senate has a Democratic majority.

    The bill made it out of the GA last year to be vetoed by Governor Kaine. I suspect we will lose some votes in the Senate this year because they knew last year that Kaine would veto it.

    Anyone can follow the committee and subcommittee schedules via the LIS web site, and even go to Richmond and attend the meetings and speak in favor or against a bill. It's a very educational process, and I see it as a privilege not to be taken for granted.

    TFred
    I saw it said the next meeting was Wednesday. Does this mean the senate will vote on it then? Or does that just mean it will be discussed again then?
    You have to check the schedule. See here, and poke around:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/101/com/COM.HTM

    They publish an agenda or a docket before each meeting.

    TFred

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    Thanks.

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