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Thread: Lawful Purpose = No open carry??

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    I think we could as OCers run into problems with this one. How can we legally OC, even at a picnic until these laws are removed/clarified? When I spoke to my attorney about this, she advised me to be very careful about OC while mt CPL is suspended, because there is no (case law?) regarding this. No court has said if these restrictions are the only way to transport, or if it is an exsample of acceptable reasons.

    According to this law, going to the range (for instance) is more important than protecting your life. There is no provision given for OC, or self defense, or making a political statement.

    What do you think? Until I get my CPL re activated, I still want to OC, but I really dont want to get screwed up with this beforehand, and I dont want to be unarmed.

    .................................................. .................................................. .....................................

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html

    [align=center][font="Arial, Helvetica"][b][size=3]MCL 750.231aA person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    A 'lawful purpose' includes:

    • While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    • While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair.
    • While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business.
    • While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol.
    • While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale.
    • While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted.

    • While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

  2. #2
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    [font="Arial, Helvetica"][b][size=3]

    A 'lawful purpose' includes:
    i would assume that it should be more properly noted as "includes,but is not limited to"



    as LEO's would've jumped on it by now if not.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    Since OC is a lawful purpose and local ordinances are preempted this is the exception that covers you. Now, technically a park is public property and this states private property. The fix for that is to park in a private lot like a Mcdonald's or a shopping center and just walk to the park.

    Hope this helps


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    ...Or, have a CPL holder who plans to attend the OC event carry it for you if private property parking is not feasible.

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    It says "includes" not "all of the following and nothing else."

    The Michigan constitution for example specifies that you can carry to protect yourself and the state or something like that. Going by the wording of the law, a non CPL holder can transport a handgun unloaded and encased in the trunk to wherever isn't prohibited by specific laws.

    That list is not a complete list of where you can take a pistol, it is a stupid partial list that exists for no good reason other than to confuse people. Almost all gun laws in this state are either useless, idiotic, or archaic racism. This one falls into the first and perhaps second categories.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    [font="Arial, Helvetica"][b][size=3]

    A 'lawful purpose' includes:
    I did not write that. I copied it directly from the MSP site which I provided a link to.

    ...anybody know how to turn off this bold type?

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    Generaldet wrote:
    While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    Since OC is a lawful purpose and local ordinances are preempted this is the exception that covers you.
    I thought so, but I wasnt sure because since OC isnt written law, just never illegal, I wasnt sure if this applied to it.

    Definitely useless and idiotic

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    it is written in law, the second amendment of the constitiution

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Wow, that was insightful. Did you forget what web site you're on?

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    Every time i talk about anyone under 21 owning a handgun, or OC to a LEO or Gun store owner. Though i will say all the convos were started purely for conversation, i was not OCing at the time, or i doubt they would have been so accommedations They try and state this law like it's their ace in the whole. When you ask them about that little word "include" they usually change their tune a bit.

    I think it was best summed up by Venator a few months ago.

    "I carry for any and all lawful purposes"(give a take a pronoun)

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    dougwg wrote:
    Wow, that was insightful. Did you forget what web site you're on?
    Was that for me?

    I come to MOC because I OC, and because this is the best place I have found to learn about these things.

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    stainless1911 wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    Wow, that was insightful. Did you forget what web site you're on?
    Was that for me?

    I come to MOC because I OC, and because this is the best place I have found to learn about these things.
    No, Doug was referring to Kyleplusitunes. He has a tendency to be a bit on the sarcastic side.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to be sarcastic. it just kinda upsets me that this guys lawyer would tell him not to oc. the very nature of carrying a handgun is a lawful purpose as outlined in our consitituion.

    apologies if it sounded rude. didn't mean to be.

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    I used to wonder why there were never any laws against OC, but then I realized what it is...For those (Nobody here) who believe there is no law which permits you to OC, I'd say there is no MCL But there is a Constitutional Law that guarantees your right to K&B for self defense, It is called the Michigan State Constitution this is why there is No MCL making it against the law. Any law against would be Un-Constitutional.

    :celebrate

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    And right there....thats it in a nut shell.

    Very well said!

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    Link provided by Mike:

    http://www.ammoland.com/2010/01/11/o...w-in-michigan/

    In pertinent part:

    Q: What is the MCL number for a person being able to openly carry a gun in Michigan?

    A: Your question refers to the Michigan Compiled Laws numbering system. All of Michigan’s statutes are available online at www.Legislature.MI.gov. They are organized in a numbering system and all of them begin with “MCL.”

    The answer is that the right to carry a gun openly is not actually part of the MCL system. Rather, it is laid out in Article I, Section 6 of the Michigan Constitution, which states: “Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.” This clause is more clearly worded than the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Because the Michigan provision, adopted almost two centuries after the adoption of the US Constitution, uses the phrase, “defense of himself,” there has never been the level of debate regarding whether the right was an individual right that there was regarding the Second Amendment. For many years during the 20th Century, there was confusion in some jurisdictions brought on by a misunderstanding of the term “Militia” in the Second Amendment. That confusion was cleared up, for the most part, by the US Supreme Court’s decision in the Heller case recently.


  17. #17
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    I think we could as OCers run into problems with this one. How can we legally OC, even at a picnic until these laws are removed/clarified? When I spoke to my attorney about this, she advised me to be very careful about OC while mt CPL is suspended, because there is no (case law?) regarding this. No court has said if these restrictions are the only way to transport, or if it is an exsample of acceptable reasons.

    According to this law, going to the range (for instance) is more important than protecting your life. There is no provision given for OC, or self defense, or making a political statement.

    What do you think? Until I get my CPL re activated, I still want to OC, but I really dont want to get screwed up with this beforehand, and I dont want to be unarmed.

    .................................................. .................................................. .....................................

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html



    [font="Arial, Helvetica"][size=3]MCL 750.231aA person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    A 'lawful purpose' includes:

    • While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    • While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair.
    • While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business.
    • While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol.
    • While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale.
    • While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted.

    • While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    That word includes means a partial list of possible lawful activities, it does not list them all. In Traverse City a LEO cited someone saying they transported unlawfully. The judge looked at the law and dismissed it.

    But just to be sure a bill is being worked on that removes these examples entirely and just says all lawful purposes. I expect it to pass as the intent was to allow all lawful purposes anyway, this will just clear it up.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    I think we could as OCers run into problems with this one. How can we legally OC, even at a picnic until these laws are removed/clarified? When I spoke to my attorney about this, she advised me to be very careful about OC while mt CPL is suspended, because there is no (case law?) regarding this. No court has said if these restrictions are the only way to transport, or if it is an exsample of acceptable reasons.

    According to this law, going to the range (for instance) is more important than protecting your life. There is no provision given for OC, or self defense, or making a political statement.

    What do you think? Until I get my CPL re activated, I still want to OC, but I really dont want to get screwed up with this beforehand, and I dont want to be unarmed.

    .................................................. .................................................. .....................................

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0953--,00.html



    [font="Arial, Helvetica"][size=3]MCL 750.231a**A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle.*

    A 'lawful purpose' includes:

    • While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    • While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair.
    • While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business.
    • While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol.
    • While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale.
    • While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted.

    • While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    That word includes means a partial list of possible lawful activities, it does not list them all.* In Traverse City a LEO cited someone saying they transported unlawfully.* The judge looked at the law and dismissed it.

    But just to be sure a bill is being worked on that removes these examples entirely and just says all lawful purposes.* I expect it to pass as the intent was to allow all lawful purposes anyway, this will just clear it up.
    Wouldn't it be safe to look at it as: A 'lawful purpose' is any purpose that is not unlawful, illegal, or prohibited. So as long as you're not in violation of law then that would be considered a lawful purpose.

  19. #19
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    Yes

    Theideal situation is to clear it up with the LEOs without ever needing to wait for court.



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    Venator wrote:
    SNIP[font="Arial, Helvetica"][size=3]
    That word includes means a partial list of possible lawful activities, it does not list them all. In Traverse City a LEO cited someone saying they transported unlawfully. The judge looked at the law and dismissed it.


    But just to be sure a bill is being worked on that removes these examples entirely and just says all lawful purposes. I expect it to pass as the intent was to allow all lawful purposes anyway, this will just clear it up.

    Brian, do you have a cite to this? The only proposed amendment to 231a that I can find is SB 793 which adds: "directly or indirectly" to the Subdivisions (i)-->(vii).

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...9-SIB-0793.pdf

    Edit: Added proposed


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    stainless1911 wrote:
    Yes

    The*ideal situation is to clear it up with the LEOs without ever needing to wait for court.
    That's much easier said then done. Most laws specially gun laws are vague and misleading.

  22. #22
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    SNIP[font="Arial, Helvetica"][size=3]
    That word includes means a partial list of possible lawful activities, it does not list them all. In Traverse City a LEO cited someone saying they transported unlawfully. The judge looked at the law and dismissed it.


    But just to be sure a bill is being worked on that removes these examples entirely and just says all lawful purposes. I expect it to pass as the intent was to allow all lawful purposes anyway, this will just clear it up.

    Brian, do you have a cite to this? The only proposed amendment to 231a that I can find is SB 793 which adds: "directly or indirectly" to the Subdivisions (i)-->(vii).

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...9-SIB-0793.pdf

    Edit: Added proposed
    This is all behind the scenes. But below is the substituted wording for Bill 5303. Nothing moving on it yet.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
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    Venator wrote:
    SNIP[font="Arial, Helvetica"][size=3]
    This is all behind the scenes. But below is the substituted wording for Bill 5303. Nothing moving on it yet.
    So, by eliminating (2)(b), your left with:

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful
    purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    Hence: All lawful purposes. Perfect.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    stainless1911 wrote:
    That's much easier said then done. Most laws specially gun laws are vague and misleading.
    Intensionnaly I'm sure. :quirky

    Great info guys. Printed it and its in the car.

  25. #25
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    stainless1911 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    That's much easier said then done. Most laws specially gun laws are vague and misleading.
    Intensionnaly I'm sure. :quirky

    Great info guys. Printed it and its in the car.
    Stainless, the info on this page is HB 5303, it's not law yet if that's what you meant by "Great info."

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