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Thread: Help me understand

  1. #1
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    For starters, let me be straight, I am in no way trying to make anyone mad or upset, just trying to get an understanding on things.

    Just what kind of message are we really trying to get across to people? I read stories in here and for the most part enjoy and understand and support them. But then there are those I do not understand. Those are the ones where a person is OCing and some uninformed person panics and call the police. A LEO is then dispatched and he is doing his job that he is obligated to do and INVESTIGATE, That's all, and make a decision from there on what to do. He would be doing that ifs its a person reported carrying a gun, stealing a car, or a cat in a tree. He is only responding because he has been called. Now if he just does something on his own is one thing, but for now, he has been called.

    Back to the subject, Mr or Ms OC is just minding their own manners doing whatever it is they are doingand a LEO (remember, he is just doing his job the same as most of us do every day, to the best of our abilities) and asks the OCer a few questions. Now that LEO might ask for an ID, to check the serial number of our gun, or anything else that the OC has the lea gal right to refuse. Course, that puts the LEO at an immediate defense and the here we go.

    Now, chances are, there are other people watching, passing by, etc. They only see a part of whats going on. Now, maybe the LEO might have done things different, better, or whatever. Remember, we carry to protect ourselves, our family and friends from the scumbags of the earth, the same scumbags the LEOs deal with everyday of their job! So, when they first come up on the OCer they don't know them from adam, so if you were in their shoes, what would you do to make sure you were safe from someone you don't know carrying a gun? Someone you don't know that may be running from the law, or is law abiding?

    There is a story about two bulls standing on top of a hill, one young and one old. The young bull says to the old bull, "see all of those cows down there? lets run down there and go mount one of them!" The old bull replies " Why don't weWALK down there and mount them all?"

    The point is, in a situation, sometimes being cooperative even though you don't HAVE to can do more good than harm. Either stand up and be very assertive to show that LEO you have rights and teach him a thing or two while at the same time the 10 to 20 people that might be watching are getting a bad taste about people carrying guns in the open, (remember, they are only seeing just a part of whats going on and yes, first impressions DO matter) or be cooperative, still inform the LEO of some rights you have and other lea gal issues he may be wrong about AND give a good image to the people that are watching a good taste of people with gun that carry.

    I am not saying every time should be that way, like I mentioned before about the LEO who hassles on his own accord. Just sit back and think before you act.

    Like I have said before, the is a difference between a legal right and a morale right and sometimes one needs to oversee the other.

    I hope I haven't offended anyone as that was not my intent, just trying to understand a few things as being my age (45), I may see some things different than say someone in their 20s and am only wanting to try and see both sides.

    Semper Fi!

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    I think that I am in the same boat an LEO is - I don't know this guy coming up to me with a gun, asking for my ID and wanting to take my weapon for "officer safety" or to run numbers on it. You don't get to take property off of me to find out if it's stolen, that's just not the way things work. If LEOs had a better track record of making things right when they stop the wrong person I might be a little more comfortable with it, but as it stands now I've got some guy with a gun, a pair of handcuffs and no accountability who is very likely automatically taking an adversarial role due to the MAWAG call.

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    I think that getting a feel for the situation is important.

    If an officer is polite and acting reasonable. Sometimes it might be okay to give them an ID to make them feel better and let everyone know we're all legitimate.

    I'm personally against agreeing to have yourself be disarmed. The Serial number check of a law abiding citizen's weapon is very unreasonable.

    Obviously, if you feel like you're being targeted and the officer is being adversarial/confrontational. There is probably no point in cooperating at all. Any act of cooperation will most likely be taken as submission/weakness by the officer who at this point more likely goint to appear as a bully/oppressor, which of course all these people understand is strength. Since violence is out of the question/un-called forin most situations, asserting your rights is the only effective weapon you have against these agents of oppression.

    It all depends how far you are willing to go. Some people don't want to be arrested(wrongfully) and cooperate with(appease) the Officer(bully/tyrant) in hopes they will be spared. Is it wrong to be afraid? It is perfectly natural.

    "Those who dare, win." -SAS


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    There is another thing to consider:
    IF you are stopped and disarmed, what are pass-er-bys going to see? A LEO talking to a person. They do not know a weapon was/is involved.
    IF you are stopped, keep your weapon, and are with the officer, what do pass-er-bys see? A guy with a gun talking to a guy with a gun, and/or a LEO talking to a person. We all know how inattentive people are, and how rarely our firearm is noticed.
    So, I personally feel that this entire argument is rather far fetched that after being stopped that we will cause a negative opinion in people's minds.

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    If it's within the officers duty to check out the gun than thats fine. If hes over stepping his boundaries even a little i'll let him know, i'll be polite and cooperative but i'll let him know. Refusing may not only save you time, but it's going to let the officer know you have limits(and rights)and he must abide by them, as you abide by the law.

    I've been totally cooperative with LEO when i've been pulled over. I had my unloaded AK's in the car one time coming back from the range..., conversation turned to wanting to check the serial numbers. So the LEO in question grabs both my AK's and needless to say mishandles both of them, one of them retailed for close to 900$ and he was just slopping them on the hood of his car. It was so bad I had to get out of the car( a no no) and tell him to stop, I don't care what situation I was in... He was ruining a significant amount of my money because he had no respect for weapons that weren't his.

    I don't believe in getting into a ******* contest with LEOs, and in fact would prefer to be cooperative... but sometimes it just doesn't work that way. However, I will do all in my power to keep things civil, but just where do I draw the line? Do I let him mishandle my weapons because it would be better for me, or do I speak up and try to keep close 1200$ worth of guns being damaged? The latter for me.

    Being concerned with the image you're displaying shows that you're responsible and are aware your actions can form the opinions of others. OC because it's comfortable, OC because that's howyou prefer to carry inyour vehicle(out in the open, loaded, in the passenger seat), OC because you have some desire to educate people on the cause. Don't OC because you want to antagonize LEOs, Don't OC if you're doing it solely because you can, OC because it's what you want. My main thing about OC is that if we lose the ability to do such, other rights will soon follow.

    If the Open Carry cause is lost we lose some things people don't even really consider apart ofOCing, which is important to a good bit of us. The ability to carry locked and loaded in our vehicles without have a CCW. If there is no open carry and you can't afford the numerous costs associated with CCW than you would practically be limited to having your gun on your property. That is one of the few reasons I open carry.




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    CarryOpen wrote:
    I think that I am in the same boat an LEO is - I don't know this guy coming up to me with a gun, asking for my ID and wanting to take my weapon for "officer safety" or to run numbers on it. You don't get to take property off of me to find out if it's stolen, that's just not the way things work. If LEOs had a better track record of making things right when they stop the wrong person I might be a little more comfortable with it, but as it stands now I've got some guy with a gun, a pair of handcuffs and no accountability who is very likely automatically taking an adversarial role due to the MAWAG call.
    Well put!

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    All depends on the situation. I have been confronted by LEO one time & I have to say there are some things I will do differently next time. However like Ratt402 I'm older (50 ) but maybe not wiser. I'm still learning as I go.

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    Oh, please don't get me wrong! I am in no way claiming to be so much wiser, but there is a little to be said for maturity. Every situation is different, it just seems that some would treat every situation the same, being defiant no matter what the cost just because they can and have the legal right to. As much as people don't like to hear this, LEOs do represent a position of authority. Now, do some perform a good job at this, yes, and some may not. The same as all of us at our jobs. But like others in a position of such, we may not respect the person, but we should by some means respect the position. I know that may be a hard concept for some to grasp, I guess having a military backgound helps, but I can hear some saying "But we are NOT in the military" and rightfully so. But the fact remains the same, there are some in this world that do hold such a position and until they prove otherwise do deserve a certain amount of respect.

    It just APPEARS that some people right off to bat would take an offensive position to a LEO approaching them as he or she is performing their job IF they were called and not just doing something on their own. It also seems like being submissive and being respectful is confused as well. I am in no mean suggesting anyone roll over like a puppy, but just remember, respect ISa two way street. If the LEO is not, then pick your battle and when to fight as well figuratively speaking of course.

    Just a few thoughts from an older war horse that strongly believes in our right to carry and only wanting to help.

    Semper Fi!



















  9. #9
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    You need to remember that in many of NC's urban jurisdictions, it is their policy to KEEP any firearm taken into police possession--for WHATEVER REASON, and run a ballistics check on it, at which point, they may or may not return it. If you live in Fayetteville especially, they pretty much do this as a matter-of-course...

    Remember that story about the guy in Fayetteville who was in a traffic accident (he was NOT at fault) who gave the attending LEO his firearm because he didn't want to leave it in the car and they wouldn't let him take it on the ambulance? They held on to that poor guy's pistol for a LONG time, and he was PERFECTLY within the law--even in the traffic accident...

    http://www.fayobserver.com/Articles/2009/08/21/925616

    http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2...handgun-owner/

    Personally, I see no need for an LEO to impound my lawfully-owned firearm and run serial numbers, ballistics checks or whatever, and I SURE as hell don't want them handling my firearm like it's some piece of "gang-banger evidence". My Para is a custom-tuned instrument, a VERY expensive tool assembled and adjusted by one of the best 1911 custom shops on the East Coast, and I'd really rather not "entrust" it to a thuggish agency with a chip on their shoulder...

    All that said, if an LEO is polite with me, I'll usually give him all the "paperwork" he wants, but I'll let him know that I know it's not required if I'm on foot and OCing.

    If he starts off with an attitude, I'll probably give him all the "paperwork" he wants (and maybe even more!) in an even more polite tone, and let him be the one to turn it into a ******* contest, which I WILL NOT participate in on the street. Because THAT is what the Courts are for...

    In EITHER circumstance, I'll have it all on an audio recording (at the very least). If I'm in my car, I'll probably have a video record (of my own) as well as his "dash cam"...

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    First off, you're not going to offend anyone very easily around here. Secondly, it is about education and setting the RIGHT stage for ALL encounters, such as what Dreamer has pointed out. If an officer comes up to talk you, find out what their intentions are. If they just want to talk to you about your gun as in a friendly conversation about firearms, fine, but if it is official business, assert your rights. They may not fully understand, have experience with, or may be looking to get you on something. I am not stating all police (or even most) are intentionally looking for a reason to detain, arrest, or charge you with something or to generally hassle you but you should make sure you protect your self. That does mean being cordial and not resisting, physically, unless there is a genuine reason (if a cop walks up to you and starts to shoot at you, what do you do?.... I hope you would defend yourself, worry about the ramifications after the fact, at least you're alive). Business is business and shooting-the-crap is shooting-the crap. Consent where none is needed (such as, if you don't want to cause a scene or you want to speed up getting out of the situation), may mean in more serious situations, it is more acceptable for those officers to pressure you or someone else. You have to think about yourself and others that will encounter LEO's. A LEO that is used to people giving up their ID, gun, or something else where it was not warranted by law will begin, if not already, to expect it in all situations and will react defensively when someone chooses to exert their rights. Leading to more serious situations. I praise those that are active educators in not just the right to keep and bear arms (anywhere where lawful) but also in other rights that are very important. It is not totally about the 2nd amendment, it is about all of our rights and they should not be treaded upon by anyone for any reason.

    Ratt402 wrote:
    There is a story about two bulls standing on top of a hill, one young and one old. The young bull says to the old bull, "see all of those cows down there? lets run down there and go mount one of them!" The old bull replies " Why don't we*WALK down there and mount them all?"
    I grew up watching the movie, Colors, and that is definitely a reference to this movie, I like the use of the term "mount" as a forum safe alternative.

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    Ratt402 wrote:
    But the fact remains the same, there are some in this world that do hold such a position and until they prove otherwise do deserve a certain amount of respect.

    It just APPEARS that some people right off to bat would take an offensive position to a LEO approaching them as he or she is performing their job IF they were called and not just doing something on their own.

    Semper Fi!
    I for one think everyone deserves a certain level of respect until they prove otherwise. People can, however, lose that respect VERY quickly.

    When we meet someone we owe them the common respect you owe any human but within moments of meeting them, we make decisions about that person based off of their looks (probably the worst gauge), their body language, the content of what they say in addition to the tone in which they say it.

    All of this is also subject to the person decoding all of this information. As a 26 year old "black man" I'm sure I view LEO through different glasses than a 50 year old "white man" (I'm assuming at this point). Also your service in the Marine Corps (which I respect might I add) and your life experience and a welter of other factors shapes your world view.

    It appears to me that when an incident of wrongdoing by a LEO occurs, the general perception is that he was a rogue officer and "most LEO are good", it's just a few bad apples.

    I think with the more incidents we see, people can hold on to that thought less and less.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYaAT59RhWc

    The above video is a compilation of Police brutality. It should have been a struggle to find that much footage of that level of misconduct. On the contrary, I had more clips that wouldn't fit (I just wanted to use one song but I could have probably made a double disc album). Also, to my point, in about every clip there are multiple officers. If most were good then the rogue ones would have all of the good ones turn on them immediately and arrest them; they tend to join in the fun from what I see.

    I am HONESTLY more concerned for my safety if encountering a LEO than someone who has a "thug" look (I've grown up around of a lot of thug looking people and most of them are not as hardcore as thy put off).

    When LEO approach me I try my darndest to be objective in assessing them. I can only go off of what they give me. If they bark commands that are a violation of my rights and attempt to intimidate me with classical "I'm the law tactics" they very well may move into the spot in my mind labeled "Thug with a badge with little to no understanding of my rights LET ALONE a care about them, who couldn't get any other job making $30k a year, so he decided to be a cop since he was an all-conference linebacker in 92 when his HS made it to the second round of the 2A state tournament and the add for the local force on TV during the commercial break of Judge Judy said the job includes benefits."

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    Another question that came to mind is this: The premise for this discussion is that the LEO was called to a MWAG situation and he's just doing his job. My question is, what is he procedure in responding to calls where no law has been broken and there is no PC that one will be broken?

    If I called the Police and said "a man is walking down the street" I would deem it reasonable for the police to come question me, the caller (if they would even respond to such a foolish call).

    What are they investigating if they get MWAG? Is there a SPECIFIC law they are investigating me for violating? If they want ID because they think I'm too young or they wan the serial# because a weapon was just reported stolen nearby or the caller said I was brandishing etc. that changes things.

    If they are just investigating all of the above with zero suspension, I think anything less than asserting EVERY right we have is unreasonable.

    If you were walking unarmed and a LEO sopped to investigate you for any possible law that would be absurd. "I just need to run a background check to make sure your not a serial killer"

    I have been detained before, NO call, LEO just saw me OC'ing (with my infant daughter BTW) and when I asked him what law I was being investigated for being in violation of he said AND I QUOTE "ANY law".

    If he's investigating me for violating any law, does that mean he suspected me of violating ALL the laws? Man I'm one bad dude!

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    As far as anonymous MWAG calls and Terry stops check out JL v Florida.'

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...9_0266_ZS.html

    Here's my short, incomplete list of encounter ideas.

    1- If I called the cops for something I am more likely to cooperate and disarm. BTDT, had an accident and was disarmed. No questions, no #'s run, no problems. So I let it ride. I needed the accident report for my insurance.

    2- I am stopped for breaking a law, even speeding. Getting tricky here, I broke a law, even a minor one. So I may comply to reasonable requests. I will not consent to having the #'s run, it's a personal peeve of mine. I may file a complaint later, depending on how it ends up.

    3- Minding my own business and it's a MWAG call or random traffic/license/sobriety checkpoint. I am complying with as little as possible. I have done nothing and expect to be treated as such. I am not a criminal and expect not to be treated as such. I would not consent to being searched or disarmed. Since I have a CCP I would most likely cooperate by providing my DL and CCP permit. Along with a list of relevant case law in NC about OC. This is by far my biggest gripe on LEO encounters. Random calls that end with the OC'r being detained and searcher. GRRR

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    Ratt402 wrote:
    Those are the ones where a person is OCing and some uninformed person panics and call the police. A LEO is then dispatched and he is doing his job that he is obligated to do and INVESTIGATE, That's all, and make a decision from there on what to do. He would be doing that ifs its a person reported carrying a gun, stealing a car, or a cat in a tree. He is only responding because he has been called.
    The error in your thought pattern is that just because the police receive a call about somebody, does not give them the legal power to seize the person - carrying a gun per se is not grounds to be stopped by the police nor more than is walking thru a white neighborhood while being black.

    Yes they can surveil people, try to have a consensual encounter with them, etc., but seizing them, demanding ID, removing their person property to see serial numbers, etc., just because somebody called and complained that a person is carrying a holstered gun violates the Fourth Amendment unless some other particularized fact create reasonable suspicon that crime is afoot.

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    Not being a citizen of the beautiful state of NC and not up-to-date on her laws, I must presume a few facts.

    I presume in NC it is legal for a citizen of good standing to own a firearm.
    I presume in NC it is legal for a citizen of good standing to carry a firearm openly on a public sidewalk.

    Now based upon only those two facts; some other citizen who calls the police to report a citizen walking down a public sidewalk with a firearm openly displayed on their side *is not* reporting a crime; they’re making an observation which is a waste of the dispatcher’s time, and the dispatcher should have the authority to tell the observing citizen such.

    This is honestly no different than saying “I see a man with a hammer walking down the sidewalk” or “I see a man with a cell phone walking down the sidewalk.” If it is not illegal and if there is no immediate indication the man with the firearm, the hammer or the cell phone is not actively committing a crime then there is no need for police to investigate.

    The problem here is with the dispatcher either not having the knowledge that what is being reported is not unlawful or lacking the authority to tell the citizen that what they are reporting is not a crime.
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    Well said, ChinChin!
    Carry on!

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    Mike and Chinchin, honestly I used to worry about the citizen phone call and MWAG. But the more I read here the more it seems that LEO just take it upon themselves to initiate stops on OC'ers. The LEO sees the gun and gets excited. And it seems to be a bigger issue in certain areas.

    If only it were so guys. Not like that here just yet. we're working on it. The GATTTOTP is deeply imbedded in the thought process here with anti's and gun folks. Bring up OC on another gun board with NC folks and watch the GATTTOTP fly! Everyone is convinced they will be arrested if they OC. Knowledge is power!

    You're both right on. But just trying to get that thought process implemented around here will take a while. The JL v Florida ruling above is a great read about anonymous MWAG calls.

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    Just minding my business headed in Walmart today GPD officer coming out as I'm going in.

    Officer: What's going on with the gun?
    Me: (confused look) I'm not sure I understand :?. What do you mean "What's going on with the gun?"
    Officer: What are you doing carrying a gun out in the open?
    Me: Can you hold on a minute?
    (I pull out my cell phone to record. I takes me maybe 10 seconds to pull out the phone and open the app. He waits.)
    Me: (phone recording) Am I being detained?
    Officer: Well I've got to take her to jail right now (female employee caught stealing) but if we get a call we'll be back.
    2 Employees coming out for a smoke break: Oh he's cool; he comes here all the time.
    Officer: Well if you call us we'll come back.
    Employees: Oh we're fine...

    My encounter from today.

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    jp49911 wrote:
    Just minding my business headed in Walmart today GPD officer coming out as I'm going in.

    Officer: What's going on with the gun?
    Me: (confused look) I'm not sure I understand :?. What do you mean "What's going on with the gun?"
    Officer: What are you doing carrying a gun out in the open?
    Me: Can you hold on a minute?
    (I pull out my cell phone to record. I takes me maybe 10 seconds to pull out the phone and open the app. He waits.)
    Me: (phone recording) Am I being detained?
    Officer: Well I've got to take her to jail right now (female employee caught stealing) but if we get a call we'll be back.
    2 Employees coming out for a smoke break: Oh he's cool; he comes here all the time.
    Officer: Well if you call us we'll come back.
    Employees: Oh we're fine...

    My encounter from today.
    Oh man, here we go. Which Wal-Mart was this? Do you happen to know what police district it was (east, west, central, or southern)?

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    tekshogun wrote
    Oh man, here we go. Which Wal-Mart was this? Do you happen to know what police district it was (east, west, central, or southern)?
    Wal-Mart on Elmsley off of S. Elm Eugene.

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    jp49911 wrote:
    tekshogun wrote
    Oh man, here we go. Which Wal-Mart was this? Do you happen to know what police district it was (east, west, central, or southern)?
    Wal-Mart* on Elmsley off of S. Elm Eugene.
    Hmmmm, ok, southern. That is usually the store I go to for ammunition.

    Well, I'm glad you were not hassled. GPD is still not too used to people openly carrying a gun. I am concerned about the statement of coming back if they're called. It does sound as though the officer needed to find something to say. Of course they'll "come back" if they are called out there (for a MWAG or any other call).

    I am sure though that he knew it was not illegal but perhaps wanted to present the situation of doing something or investigating if there was a call. A citizen wouldn't warrant any police action if no crime was being committed other than seeing or talking to you real quick to determine anything illegal has or was happening; and if the store called, I am guessing that they would need to ask you to leave first unless they wanted to call the police to do it for them, either way, nothing illegal happening and no investigation, detainment, citation, or arrest would be warranted.

    Thanks for the report though, keep up the good fight.

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    tekshogun wrote:
    jp49911 wrote:
    tekshogun wrote
    Oh man, here we go. Which Wal-Mart was this? Do you happen to know what police district it was (east, west, central, or southern)?
    Wal-Mart on Elmsley off of S. Elm Eugene.
    Hmmmm, ok, southern. That is usually the store I go to for ammunition.

    Well, I'm glad you were not hassled. GPD is still not too used to people openly carrying a gun. I am concerned about the statement of coming back if they're called. It does sound as though the officer needed to find something to say. Of course they'll "come back" if they are called out there (for a MWAG or any other call).

    I am sure though that he knew it was not illegal but perhaps wanted to present the situation of doing something or investigating if there was a call. A citizen wouldn't warrant any police action if no crime was being committed other than seeing or talking to you real quick to determine anything illegal has or was happening; and if the store called, I am guessing that they would need to ask you to leave first unless they wanted to call the police to do it for them, either way, nothing illegal happening and no investigation, detainment, citation, or arrest would be warranted.

    Thanks for the report though, keep up the good fight.
    I live about four minutes from this Wal-Mart and go there a few times a week (OC'ing EVERY time).

    They now me. I have talked with management and security (the ones in the room monitoring the cameras). I had an issue with OC'ing their in April 09 but sine then it's been smooth.

  24. #24
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    Not to defend the officer's reaction or anything, but I have to give the southern operations guys some leeway. That area, in a wide circle around S. Elm-Eugene and I-40 is probably one of the most dangerous areas of Greensboro for them.

    Nevertheless, I'm glad the fellows at Wal-Mart are on your side now. What a flip, eh?
    The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats

  25. #25
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    Kivuli wrote:
    Not to defend the officer's reaction or anything, but I have to give the southern operations guys some leeway. That area, in a wide circle around S. Elm-Eugene and I-40 is probably one of the most dangerous areas of Greensboro for them.

    Nevertheless, I'm glad the fellows at Wal-Mart are on your side now. What a flip, eh?
    Well, you could say that for sectors in Central and Eastern especially. Those in Western or the squads that get sectors in areas such as New Irving park should be on as high a level of awareness as the rest of the city. With that said, as long as no one violates any rights or laws, they can say or do whatever they want.

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