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Thread: SB 334: Concealed handguns; restaurants; penalty

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...?101+sum+SB334

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    Concealed handguns; restaurants; penalty. Allows a person with a concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of a restaurant or club and prohibits such person from consuming alcoholic beverages while on the premises. A person who consumes alcohol in violation of the provisions of the bill is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor and a person who becomes intoxicated in violation of the provisions of the bill is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    It's already a statutory violation to be inebriated and carrying.

    This submission is garbage. I much prefer the complete and utter repeal of that section.

    With this bill in circulation I believe that we may see some fence-sitters go for this half-blood bill as a conciliatory matter, a compromise, instead of standing up for real liberty.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    I agree..., it's already illegal, just repeal the ban and let people take on some personal responsibility.

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    VCDL may strongly support such rubbish, but I stand strongly opposed. I'll take my Liberty and exercise it responsibly, thank you.



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    VaLiberty wrote:
    VCDL may strongly support such rubbish, but I stand strongly opposed. I'll take my Liberty and exercise it responsibly, thank you.
    As of Wed Jan 13th, 2010 05:25 pm, per VCDL's 2010 Legislation Tracking Tool, VCDL has no position on this bill. Do note, VCDL supports one bill that completely repeals the restaurant ban and another bill that allows concealed carry so long as you don't consume any alcohol.

    ETA: Text in red above
    ---

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    rlh2005 wrote:
    VaLiberty wrote:
    VCDL may strongly support such rubbish, but I stand strongly opposed. I'll take my Liberty and exercise it responsibly, thank you.
    Per VCDL's 2010 Legislation Tracking Tool, VCDL has no position on this bill. Do note, VCDL supports one bill that completely repeals the restaurant ban and another bill that allows concealed carry so long as you don't consume any alcohol.
    This is close enough to HB505 to be distasteful, which VCDL DOES strongly support.

    -- Edit --

    Check again - it was just a matter of time.

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    VaLiberty wrote:
    rlh2005 wrote:
    VaLiberty wrote:
    VCDL may strongly support such rubbish, but I stand strongly opposed. I'll take my Liberty and exercise it responsibly, thank you.
    Per VCDL's 2010 Legislation Tracking Tool, VCDL has no position on this bill. Do note, VCDL supports one bill that completely repeals the restaurant ban and another bill that allows concealed carry so long as you don't consume any alcohol.
    This is close enough to HB505 to be distasteful, which VCDL DOES strongly support.

    -- Edit --

    Check again - it was just a matter of time.
    When I checked yesterday, SB334 was not mention on the tracking tool.

    While the holy grail is the complete repeal of the restaurant ban (Cole's HB106), HB505 and SB334 are steps in a positive direction. We need HB505 and SB334 as the second-string players should HB106 be killed. We need strength in depth by having multiple bills. We just need to make sure HB106 wins the day.
    ---

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    J3

    A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.

    If HB681 becomes law, that would result in the absurd power of a cop arresting a gun owner and taking that person into custody for a sip of wine.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    arresting a gun owner and taking that person into custody for a sip of wine.
    Then don't drink (or sip)alcohol in public while carrying a firearm.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    ed wrote:
    Repeater wrote:
    arresting a gun owner and taking that person into custody for a sip of wine.
    Then don't drink (or sip)alcohol in public while carrying a firearm.
    What ever happened to folks being unwilling to compromise one liberty for the sake of another? Slippery slope and all that.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    VaLiberty wrote:
    What ever happened to folks being unwilling to compromise one liberty for the sake of another? Slippery slope and all that.
    Some of the membership here is less libertarian than others.

    One could argue that this topic should be ignored completely... this being an OPEN CARRY forum "and all that".


    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    So if I open carry into a restaurant I can have a beer but if I conceal carry I can't drink at all??? Hmmm, am I reading this wrong? And cops can carry and drink as much as they want? Hmmmm.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Jonesy wrote:
    So if I open carry into a restaurant I can have a beer but if I conceal carry I can't drink at all??? Hmmm, am I reading this wrong? And cops can carry and drink as much as they want? Hmmmm.
    I think your assessment is correct, but I don't believe there is an exception to 18.2-308 (J1) for LEOs.

    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.
    However, I suppose it depends on what the bold word "permitted" means. If it means "one who has been issued a permit", then it would appear to not apply to LEOs, since a permit is not required for them to carry concealed. But if it means "one who is allowed", then it probably would apply to LEOs.

    I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any section of code that said it was against the law to generally carry or possesses a firearm while under the influence. I sort of hope I just missed it, can someone point me to it?

    TFred

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    So if I open carry into a restaurant I can have a beer but if I conceal carry I can't drink at all??? Hmmm, am I reading this wrong? And cops can carry and drink as much as they want? Hmmmm.
    I think your assessment is correct, but I don't believe there is an exception to 18.2-308 (J1) for LEOs.
    I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any section of code that said it was against the law to generally carry or possesses a firearm while under the influence. I sort of hope I just missed it, can someone point me to it?

    TFred
    I'm not aware of any exception to J1 for anybody.

    As for generally prohibiting the open carrying or possession of a firearm while "under the influence of alcohol," there is no such law in Virginia. The closest I've ever found is § 18.2-285. Hunting with firearms while under influence of intoxicant or narcotic drug; penalty.

    I recall a case last year where a Virginia man was very drunk in his home, heard the burglar alarm for his downstairs store, got his gun and went to see what was going on, and shot and killed the burglar after he came at him with a crowbar or some other weapon.

    He voluntarily submitted to a breathalyzer, blew something IIRC over .1. Charges were not pressed against him as it was determined to be lawful self-defense.

    The story was posted to this forum, I'm just not looking for it right now.

    Don't drunk people have a right to self-defense against serious bodily injury or death?

    I'm not denying the negative effects alcohol has on a person; and I'm not condoning getting drunk. And if you find yourself drunk and in possession of a firearm, you'd better not handle it unless your life is in danger. But it's not against the law to be drunk; drunk people get robbed and otherwise attacked, too. They have a right to defend themselves.

  15. #15
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    virginiatuck wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    So if I open carry into a restaurant I can have a beer but if I conceal carry I can't drink at all??? Hmmm, am I reading this wrong? And cops can carry and drink as much as they want? Hmmmm.
    I think your assessment is correct, but I don't believe there is an exception to 18.2-308 (J1) for LEOs.

    I did a quick search, and I couldn't find any section of code that said it was against the law to generally carry or possesses a firearm while under the influence. I sort of hope I just missed it, can someone point me to it?

    TFred
    I'm not aware of any exception to J1 for anybody.

    As for generally prohibiting the open carrying or possession of a firearm while "under the influence of alcohol," there is no such law in Virginia. The closest I've ever found is § 18.2-285. Hunting with firearms while under influence of intoxicant or narcotic drug; penalty.

    I recall a case last year where a Virginia man was very drunk in his home, heard the burglar alarm for his downstairs store, got his gun and went to see what was going on, and shot and killed the burglar after he came at him with a crowbar or some other weapon.

    He voluntarily submitted to a breathalyzer, blew something IIRC over .1. Charges were not pressed against him as it was determined to be lawful self-defense.

    The story was posted to this forum, I'm just not looking for it right now.

    Don't drunk people have a right to self-defense against serious bodily injury or death?

    I'm not denying the negative effects alcohol has on a person; and I'm not condoning getting drunk. And if you find yourself drunk and in possession of a firearm, you'd better not handle it unless your life is in danger. But it's not against the law to be drunk; drunk people get robbed and otherwise attacked, too. They have a right to defend themselves.
    Interesting. I suppose I assumed since it was illegal to carry concealed while under the influence, it would be illegal to carry at all while under the influence. If anything, it would probably be harder for an intoxicated person to access or draw their weapon from a concealed holster than from an open carry holster.

    As far as the J1 exception, like I said, it seems to come down to whether "permitted" means having been issued a permit (would not apply to LEOs, since they don't have a permit to carry concealed), or just simply allowed (would then apply to LEOs because they are "allowed" to carry concealed).

    I'm surprised the antis haven't tried to enact a "carrying under the influence law". Imagine the floor debates over that one!

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'm trying to keep track of the Gerald Ung case in Philadelphia, and while checking on that today, this LTE popped up.

    As usual, the anti-gun letter writer is full of it. It really amazes me sometimes that these people can function in society with such faulty logical reasoning.

    I wish this site had a place for on-line comments. The last paragraph is just a bunch of hooey...

    TFred

    http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/...63&cat=110

    LETTER: Higher Standard
    Letter to the Editor

    Wednesday, March 10, 2010

    I have been an admirer and supporter of State Sen. Chap Petersen (D-34) for many years, but I was deeply disappointed when he chose to vote "Yes" on SB334, which allows concealed weapons into restaurants that serve alcohol. I do not believe that this vote is in line with the interests of his constituents or his community.

    As Sen. Petersen notes, a restaurant owner is free to exclude CCWP (concealed carry weapon permit) holders by posting or policy. Fair enough. But have you ever been about to enter a restaurant and suddenly noticed a sign that says "no guns allowed?" Would that make you (and your family) more or less likely to enter that establishment? Fairfax County welcomes many out-of-state and foreign visitors each year and they all eat at our local restaurants. How do you think these visitors would react at seeing such a sign? Sen. Petersen's "Yes" vote was a blow to our commonwealth's hospitality industry, which is why they fought against it for so many years.

    Sen. Petersen also notes that it is illegal for someone carrying a concealed weapon to drink alcohol. How a restaurant owner is supposed to know that the person who is drinking is also carrying a concealed weapon? He does not say. I assume we have to rely upon the CCWP holders' character and their training. But the training that CCWP holders are required to have is a joke. Any applicant can watch an online video for about an hour and take a short — 20 easy questions — quiz and receive the so-called "certificate of proficiency." You don't even have to touch a gun, much less fire one.

    Gun-rights politicians assert that CCWP holders are all responsible, levelheaded, law-abiding citizens and that they would only use their guns to protect themselves against a serious threat to their lives. This is a fantasy. Consider the high-profile cases involving mentally imbalanced and trigger-happy Virginia CCWP holders we have had just in the last few weeks:

    #1. Christopher Bryan Speight, a concealed carry weapons permit holder since 1999, whose permit was renewed as recently as 2009, who amassed an arsenal of weapons in spite of the "restrictive" one-gun-a-month rule and in spite of his obvious and ever-increasing mental problems, whose "high-powered rifle" had enough firepower to nearly bring down a helicopter, killed eight people, including two children, in Appomattox, Va. on Jan. 19.

    #2. On Jan. 18, Gerald Ung, 28, a Temple University grad student and a Virginia CHP holder, shot an unarmed Villanova college student five times in Philadelphia. The two had been arguing and what might have become a regular fistfight among testosterone-overloaded young men became something much more lethal.

    #3. And from the Washington Post on Friday, Feb. 5, Jose Avila, 57, a Fairfax County respected domestic violence and anger management counselor, and Virginia CCWP holder pulled a gun on two men in Annandale just because he thought they were blocking his car. As if the irony weren't palpable enough, the two men turned out to be federal marshals.

    Over the last few weeks, there has been a rapid-fire volley of bills proposed in the Richmond that seek to expand the privileges of CCWP holders while, at the same time, removing any burden of responsibility. Members of the various gun groups (and the politicians who support them) tout SB334 as a victory of their rights. But on the subject of their responsibilities they are deathly quiet. Instead, they actively seek to do away with any inconvenience or requirement for training put upon CCWP holders. This is madness. Shouldn't we and our elected leaders be holding armed citizens to a higher standard, rather than continuing to lower them?

    Laura Austin (Sonnenmark)
    Alexandria

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    Regular Member jmb_nova's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    I'm trying to keep track of the Gerald Ung case in Philadelphia, and while checking on that today, this LTE popped up.

    As usual, the anti-gun letter writer is full of it. It really amazes me sometimes that these people can function in society with such faulty logical reasoning.

    I wish this site had a place for on-line comments. The last paragraph is just a bunch of hooey...

    TFred

    http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/...63&cat=110

    LETTER: Higher Standard
    Letter to the Editor

    Wednesday, March 10, 2010

    I have been an admirer and supporter of State Sen. Chap Petersen (D-34) for many years, but I was deeply disappointed when he chose to vote "Yes" on SB334, which allows concealed weapons into restaurants that serve alcohol. I do not believe that this vote is in line with the interests of his constituents or his community.

    As Sen. Petersen notes, a restaurant owner is free to exclude CCWP (concealed carry weapon permit) holders by posting or policy. Fair enough. But have you ever been about to enter a restaurant and suddenly noticed a sign that says "no guns allowed?" Would that make you (and your family) more or less likely to enter that establishment? Fairfax County welcomes many out-of-state and foreign visitors each year and they all eat at our local restaurants. How do you think these visitors would react at seeing such a sign? Sen. Petersen's "Yes" vote was a blow to our commonwealth's hospitality industry, which is why they fought against it for so many years.

    Sen. Petersen also notes that it is illegal for someone carrying a concealed weapon to drink alcohol. How a restaurant owner is supposed to know that the person who is drinking is also carrying a concealed weapon? He does not say. I assume we have to rely upon the CCWP holders' character and their training. But the training that CCWP holders are required to have is a joke. Any applicant can watch an online video for about an hour and take a short — 20 easy questions — quiz and receive the so-called "certificate of proficiency." You don't even have to touch a gun, much less fire one.

    Gun-rights politicians assert that CCWP holders are all responsible, levelheaded, law-abiding citizens and that they would only use their guns to protect themselves against a serious threat to their lives. This is a fantasy. Consider the high-profile cases involving mentally imbalanced and trigger-happy Virginia CCWP holders we have had just in the last few weeks:

    #1. Christopher Bryan Speight, a concealed carry weapons permit holder since 1999, whose permit was renewed as recently as 2009, who amassed an arsenal of weapons in spite of the "restrictive" one-gun-a-month rule and in spite of his obvious and ever-increasing mental problems, whose "high-powered rifle" had enough firepower to nearly bring down a helicopter, killed eight people, including two children, in Appomattox, Va. on Jan. 19.

    #2. On Jan. 18, Gerald Ung, 28, a Temple University grad student and a Virginia CHP holder, shot an unarmed Villanova college student five times in Philadelphia. The two had been arguing and what might have become a regular fistfight among testosterone-overloaded young men became something much more lethal.

    #3. And from the Washington Post on Friday, Feb. 5, Jose Avila, 57, a Fairfax County respected domestic violence and anger management counselor, and Virginia CCWP holder pulled a gun on two men in Annandale just because he thought they were blocking his car. As if the irony weren't palpable enough, the two men turned out to be federal marshals.

    Over the last few weeks, there has been a rapid-fire volley of bills proposed in the Richmond that seek to expand the privileges of CCWP holders while, at the same time, removing any burden of responsibility. Members of the various gun groups (and the politicians who support them) tout SB334 as a victory of their rights. But on the subject of their responsibilities they are deathly quiet. Instead, they actively seek to do away with any inconvenience or requirement for training put upon CCWP holders. This is madness. Shouldn't we and our elected leaders be holding armed citizens to a higher standard, rather than continuing to lower them?

    Laura Austin (Sonnenmark)
    Alexandria
    Laura needs to ****. Funny how these people have the ability to try and insult every single person they can.

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