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Thread: Public servants who knowingly violate the Constitution?

  1. #1
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    I've always assumed blatant and knowing violation of the Constitution was an act of treason, BUT, after re-reading said document and related materials, I can't actually find any sort of penalty or check/balance that prevents direct violations. Impeachment seems to be the only recourse of the public, and our current system has reached the point where impeachment is next to impossible.

    My question is, what recourse do we have under the law to challenge unlawful orders from these public servants? Since they are not traitors until they commit an act of war against the country (which violating the trust of their public office does not seem to fulfill), how can we be justified in using force of arms to defend the Constitution against them if necessary?

    For example, the declaration of martial law - can we legally resist being rounded up or our firearms confiscated under such an order?
    If someone passes a law violating our 4th amendment rights (as the proposed anti-gun bill does), are we legally justified in preserving those rights through force? I want to protect myself and my rights, but I also want to make sure I'm in the right to do so if using force becomes necessary.

    Also, if a politician passes a law directly in contradiction of our civil rights, and directs law enforcement to enforce it, who do we resist? Are we only able to resist / arrest law enforcement that complies with that order, or does it become legally obligatory to arrest said politician? I know a lot of us hope (and don't really think) it'll ever come to that, but recent events and news seem to make it extremely important to know exactly what our rights are, and what our course of action should be in any of these situations.

    Thoughts / RCWs / USCs?

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    If you are having to use force, the legality isn't an issue anymore. I don't mean that as "you are past worrying about the legality." I mean that as saying you have transcended the law, or descended below it, as the case may be. In a way it is saying that the legality isn't an issue anymore because the tyrants havetied your hands so thoroughly with lawthat there is no legal way to resist, change, or get out from under it.

    Its rigged that way on purpose. The Founders gave us the 2Aas a way to fight tyranny,yet the Constitution allows the government to put down insurrections.

    One effect of this is that the bar was set high for an insurrection. Its the American version of the old adage, "He who would slay the king must not fail in the attempt." (Because the king is gonna come after you and get you, if you fail to get him.)

    So, if rebellion or revolution occur, the rebels must not fail. The winner gets to interpret or write the law and apply it to the loser.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    The problem is the gradual erosion of our rights, which would seem to prevent everyone from acting at once. Is resisting an unconstitutional law in one state considered a rebellion? If it is, all they have to do is pass invalid laws state by state, suppressing any resistance on a state basis.

    Taking everything deemed an "assault weapon" doesn't seem like just cause to start shooting our way to capitol hill, but it doesn't seem like something we should just allow to happen either. Is there no intermediate response?

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    Regular Member Squeak's Avatar
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    You can do a recall. It is pretty involved but can be done. Either PM me or I'll see you Sunday at the meet up north. We could even have a small get together and discuss what I have going.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Squeak wrote:
    You can do a recall. It is pretty involved but can be done. Either PM me or I'll see you Sunday at the meet up north. We could even have a small get together and discuss what I have going.
    I am interested in what you have going to. Sen. Murray really ticks me off.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    A recall does sound like a good legal option. My only concern is the period between when the law is passed, and when enough support for a recall can be gathered and the recall pushed through. In the meantime, police would be knocking down doors and killing / tasering people trying to get to their guns.

    Most laws don't have immediate, non-reversible effects on peoples' civil rights. The fact that a law is blatantly in violation of higher law should be an affirmative defense against resistance of the enforcement of that law by any means necessary.

    While I intend to support and help any legal means possible to stop this kind of atrocity, we *have* to know what to do while those legal means are in progress. This knowledge also has to be public. I'm not *advocating* violence of any kind, but I want our options out in the open. There has to be a clear line, something that everyone agrees on, so that everyone can act together if it does become necessary. I want our politicians and law enforcement to also be aware of their rights and our rights with respect to these sorts of things.

    This is serious business, and, given that this could happen sooner rather than later, it's become more important to know exactly what we can and cannot do.

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    They can't take your right to own a firearm. They can ask with force and you can answer any way you choose.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Indeed. Can you think of a way to defuse the situation, request they reconsider or something? Surely they wouldn't be able to break in the door - they'd have to go back to their superiors and say you refused an "inspection", then get a warrant and come back. That would buy a little time, until they started doing instant over-the-phone warrants. Is there any part of the law we could invoke to stop them long enough for less violent measures to be taken, or by the time they choose to do this have we lost all other recourse?

    This latest bill won't pass, but it'll hardly be the last time we have to deal with this question. I'd feel a lot safer knowing the proper way to handle a situation like this, and what alternatives we have to the use of force.

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    No matter what anyone says, you CANNOT vote or legislate away a person's inalienable rights... and the right to defend yourself against any person or group of people is an inalienable right.

    The verbal acrobatics of our gun grabbing foes aside, its pretty clear from ALL the writings of the founders what was meant by the Second Amendment. No amount of legal mumbo jumbo will ever be able to erase those writings.

    Now here comes the tricky part. How far would you be willing to go to resist tyranny? Do it alone and you'll be easily taken down and labeled a "Lone Nut"... so how do we do this? I know it is very frustrating that most people you know are probably more concerned about American Idol or Survivor or the Jersey Shore than they are about the erosion of their rights... or they care about some, but not others.

    Example... does anyone here care about a gay person's right to marry another gay person? I'm a Christian and while I don't agree with the practice... I am loath to deny it to someone else because a right denied to one will soon be a right denied to all.

    Any project managers here? Does anyone know the term feature creep? Its a function of a project that manages a products creation where you start off with 1 or 2 features and by the time you're at what was supposed to be the halfway mark, you have more than 100 features and there seems to be no end in sight. Our laws are the same way. Unintended consequences of agreeing to one infraction of Liberty because it does not directly affect you soon will affect you and by the time you realize it... its too late. Many a good project I've worked on has failed because of feature creep. For businesses, it just means lost money and for me... lost time, but for our Country, a loss of liberty is something that is much harder to get back.

    Notice, every time in history where liberty has either been taken, or has not existed... it has taken a bloody fight to get it back. We are letting it slip through our fingers and unfortunately, not enough of us are awake yet to legitimately fight the Liberty stealers... Just look at Waco or Ruby Ridge... more people woke up after those events, but the people who murdered those innocents got away with it scot free and the innocents were smeared as nut-jobs.

    We need to educate our neighbors in a non confrontational way to win this battle... we have to wake up as many people as possible and maybe, just maybe, we will be able to have an orange revolution.
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Where would you draw the line before we lose everything.I am familiar with feature creep.That is what i see happening.They know that most won't stand up to them and will pursue our Constitution to its destruction.



    I sort of like this Thomas Jefferson Quote..

    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.

    Or Ben Franklin....

    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    No matter what anyone says, you CANNOT vote or legislate away a person's inalienable rights... and the right to defend yourself against any person or group of people is an inalienable right.
    tell that to thesubjects in the great state of california or any other great state that has restrictions on gun ownership. what about the UK or austrailia?

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Exactly DJ they all pretty much have nothing left.In the UK according to David on the UK forum it is not allowed to talk about gun rights even the media.If this is the case it pretty much demonstrates the fact they take away our second ammendment they pretty much have unlimited controL.









    Comrades All hail the leader of the PEOPLES REBUBLIC OF KALIFORNIA...

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    dj_fatstyles wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    No matter what anyone says, you CANNOT vote or legislate away a person's inalienable rights... and the right to defend yourself against any person or group of people is an inalienable right.
    tell that to thesubjects in the great state of california or any other great state that has restrictions on gun ownership. what about the UK or austrailia?
    I understand that California and other States are violating the Constitution which by becoming a US State, signed on to abide by... and yes, I've heard the arguments of "State Rights" but any knowledgeable scholar will tell you that inalienable rights cannot be overridden by State's Rights... and this brings us to the people of California... if voting does not work... what I mean is if the politicians gerrymander the State in such a way to give their ideology a permanent majority (which is what they've done), you're only left with one option to restore the Republic you are guaranteed under the Constitution... do you have the cahones to do what it takes to restore liberty?
    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    A non-violent safety valve exists. That's when the laws get so stupid that the regular people refuse to obey them and jurors refuse to convict anyone for them. I've read stats on Canada's failed gun registration that indicated, IIRC, that they had around a 70% non compliance rate.

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    I think this law would be at the point where people refuse to obey. The problem is, the media can paint those people as scary violent criminals, so the majority of the public supports their murder at the hands of the police who go to their houses to take their guns.

    Is "the knock" on your door the line most people will draw in the sand?

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    We have pandered long enough to those who cry and whine. They have piled straw upon straw of "minor" laws for various ridiculous reasons. Why wait for the straw that breaks the camels back? We need to throw these burdens off our backs and stand up for what is right.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    They are traitors. Disarming the law-abiding on behalf of criminals, second-hand responsible for untold murders, rapes, maiming, and other crimes.

    Unfortunately it seems like not a single sheriff will do his constitutional duty and arrest these bastards, nor is any prosecutor ever going to prosecute for treason, as they are sympathizers.

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    I have a good idea.. why don't we all meet outside adam klines office OCing. Like 100 people waiting for him to come out.. show him where we stand

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    Lets see if we can get all the gun owners possible to do that from all across the state.

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    n16ht5 wrote:
    I have a good idea.. why don't we all meet outside adam klines office OCing. Like 100 people waiting for him to come out.. show him where we stand
    Like I said before, that worked real well for the black panthers in the '69 didn't it. Let's not give them ammunition for the fight but rather take their ammunition from them. We need to be very cool and collective about this. Shoving guns in their faces saying you can't take our guns will make them respond with something we do not want that will take years and years to undo.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    As much as I want to do that joeroket has a point.Although I would advocate a gunowners protest in Olympia.Verify when this may come up for discussion and have there as many as possible.However if they insist on pushing this a stronger reaction may be warranted.Also there can be no compromise.No registration, no change in the status quo unless it is to further our right to bear arms.

    Then again I just can't get past the arrogance of thes people to think they can dictate what rights we have or don't have and unwarrantedinspections .Would only be a matter of time the people conducting inspections will just begin confiscating .

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    Is there going to be a Washington State Second Amendment March in April? That would be the place to protest in large armed numbers.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Yep not as an angry mob but a well armed respectable citizens.


    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Yep not as an angry mob but a well armed respectable citizens.

    *
    Precisely.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    There is a Teaparty Rally April 15th with the second ammendment march the 19th.But would that be to late aws this session ends in March I believe.

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