Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Letter re. Open Carry I sent to my Sheriff

  1. #1
    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL, ,
    Posts
    107

    Post imported post

    OK, as previously posted by Neo, we may get a bill introduced this Legislative Session that clears up the confusion on the legality of open carry in Alabama. As a precursor to this possibility, I thought I would send a letter to my Sheriff and point out to him the contradictions between my CPL and the law. I just faxed him the letter below along with a hard copy of the Alabama Tri-fold and State of Alabama Firearms and Weapons Laws. I will keep you all posted on any response I get from him.

    Sheriff Franklin,

    Good afternoon, my name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX and I wanted to contact you in regards to the legality of open carry of a pistol in Alabama. I am relatively new concealed pistol license (CPL) holder in Elmore County. Since receiving my permit I have joined several internet forums for people with CPL’s in order to gain knowledge about concealed carry gear, situational awareness and to gather other information that will help me to become a safer and more responsible permit holder. During some of my investigation I have come across quite a bit of information that seems to indicate that open carry of a pistol is legal in the State of Alabama. I have attached two (2) documents that were put together by some folks at http://www.alabamagunrights.org. Would you be open to reviewing these documents and consider allowing persons within the County to carry openly without risk of arrest, detainment or possible revocation of their CPL? I’d also like to suggest a visit to the website listed above for additional information on the legality of open carry in Alabama.

    Restriction #1 on my CPL states that the permit does not permit me to carrying openly, however after reviewing the attached documents it appears that it is completely within my rights to carry openly without a permit of any kind (as long as I am afoot and not in a vehicle) per Alabama Statute 13A-11-73.

    Restriction #4 states that I am not allowed to carry my pistol in any place that serves alcohol. I realize that common sense would dictate that carrying while consuming alcohol is terribly irresponsible and should be prohibited. However, would you consider it ok to carry in a restaurant that sells alcohol as long as I was not consuming?

    Restriction #5 restricts the carry of my pistol within government buildings, airport terminals, etc. However the Alabama Statute 13A-11-59(b) only restricts concealed carry while attending any demonstration being held at a public place. Also, the Statute 13A-11-72(c) & (d) specifically allows a citizen to carry a pistol on the premises of a public school as long as there is no intent to bodily harm.

    In addition, the Alabama Statute 11-45-1.1 reserves the entire subject matter of handguns to the State Legislature, thereby voiding any and all restrictions on the CPL that are not in concert with the Alabama Statutes.

    Please do not misunderstand my intentions. They are not to question or undermine your authority, but only to bring to your attention what appear to be contradictions between the law and the restrictions on my CPL. As a matter of preference I do not necessarily want to openly carry my pistol, but would like to have the option available to me, without the threat of arrest, detainment or revocation of my CPL, as it appears to be legal. Also, there is a large community of CPL holders across the State of Alabama, many of them here in Elmore County, that would also like to have this option. I know there is a concern about “man with a gun” calls and the difficulty in differentiating between bad guys and good guys, however there is a common saying I’m sure you have heard, “a right not exercised, is a right lost”.

    Any thoughts or opinions you may have on this matter are greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this fax and review the attached information. I can be reached at the telephone number listed above or at my e-mail address: jkd_man2001@yahoo.com.

    Thanks again,
    Shaun


  2. #2
    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL, ,
    Posts
    107

    Post imported post

    WOW!!! Before I could even post the above, my phone rang and it was Sheriff Franklin!! He was very friendly and we had a fantastic conversation. He said he is all for exercising of our rights, including the right to open carry. He stated that everything I stated in my fax was true and he agreed fully. His only issue was what I stated in my next to last paragraph regarding "man with a gun" calls. He said his deputies and other city police don't know if the person with firearm is a GG or BG. Their protocol is to approach and gather information "What's goin' on?" "How are you?" etc. If everything goes well then no problem. They have been instructed, and understandably so, that on the first indication that a confrontation may occur, then the situation is escalated accordingly. This makes me fell better about maybe one day getting a wild hair and choosing to open carry. He also stated that I would be hard pressed to find a Sheriff in Alabama that did not share his views on this matter.

    Shaun

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Vista, California, USA
    Posts
    516

    Post imported post

    Your Sheriff is a true professional. We have one here in CA that put out a press release where in so many words, open carriers could be shot. See the link below.

    http://www.co.sanmateo.ca.us/Attachm..._opencarry.pdf

  4. #4
    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL, ,
    Posts
    107

    Post imported post

    Holy crap!! Glad to say I don't live in Kalifornia!!

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Eight Mile, , USA
    Posts
    234

    Post imported post

    I disagree with his statement about other Sheriff's. I can guarantee you that Mr. Sam Cochran does NOT share the same opinion.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Eight Mile, , USA
    Posts
    234

    Post imported post

    Monkeytown wrote:
    Holy crap!! Glad to say I don't live in Kalifornia!!
    Would you mind if your letter was used as a template to send to other Sheriffs?

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    341

    Post imported post

    Sheriff Cochran instructs his pistol permit office to tell every applicant that OC is illegal, despite its clear legality. Illiterate tyrant.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL, ,
    Posts
    107

    Post imported post

    smttysmth02gt wrote:
    Monkeytown wrote:
    Holy crap!! Glad to say I don't live in Kalifornia!!
    Would you mind if your letter was used as a template to send to other Sheriffs?
    Please do, and post your responses here.

    Shaun

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Huntsville, AL, ,
    Posts
    181

    Post imported post

    Hey MT,

    Great to hear that your sheriff is on-board with OC. I'm thinking that you're in the same area as Representive Mask, so many head LEOs may be of the same mind as him. Thanks for sharing your experience. Let's make OC "normal" again!

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Urban Skeet City, Alabama
    Posts
    897

    Post imported post

    Monkeytown: Ask him to forward his views to the other sherriffs of Alabama, particular Jefferson, Morgan, Marshall, and Madison counties.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

  11. #11
    Regular Member BluesStringer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Madison, AL
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    Hey Monkeytown, Would you please identify the two documents that you referenced attaching to your correspondence with your Sheriff that you got from http://www.alabamagunrights.org[/u]? I'm guessing they're the two AG Reports, but I wanted to make sure before I confused my Sheriff (Blakely, Limestone County).

    Thanks,

    Blues
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to Police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10

    Post imported post

    montgomery's sheriff dt marshall has weighed in on this. i've posted his response in other threads.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL, ,
    Posts
    107

    Post imported post

    BluesStringer wrote:
    Hey Monkeytown, Would you please identify the two documents that you referenced attaching to your correspondence with your Sheriff that you got from http://www.alabamagunrights.org? I'm guessing they're the two AG Reports, but I wanted to make sure before I confused my Sheriff (Blakely, Limestone County).

    Thanks,

    Blues
    The two documents I attached were the Alabama Trifold and the Alabama Weapons and Firearms Laws from Alabamagunrights.org.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1

    Post imported post

    Great Job. I have been wanting to corner Sheriff Franklin and personally ask him the same thing, but you have done such a great job, no need. Thank you for your contribution. Did you send the same to Barry Mask or other representitives?

  15. #15
    Regular Member Monkeytown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Wetumpka, AL, ,
    Posts
    107

    Post imported post

    blackjack1 wrote:
    Great Job. I have been wanting to corner Sheriff Franklin and personally ask him the same thing, but you have done such a great job, no need. Thank you for your contribution. Did you send the same to Barry Mask or other representitives?
    Thank you. My brother-in-law plays FB at ECHS with Bill's son so I've seen him at the games but never approached him to talk about OC. If I see him out again I will definitely introduce myself as he seems like a really nice guy.

    Barry Mask is a friend of mine and last year I sent him an e-mail that was originated by Dianosis on this forum.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum59/23925.html

    His response can be found in that thread also. I sent the note to Larry Dixon also, and never got a response. He sucks and never responds to anything.

    Shaun




  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Huntsville, AL, ,
    Posts
    181

    Post imported post

    Monkeytown wrote:
    <snip>
    Barry Mask is a friend of mine and last year I sent him an e-mail that was originated by Dianosis on this forum.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum59/23925.html

    His response can be found in that thread also....

    MT,

    Thanks for reminding me of that thread. I'm getting my thoughts together for letters to my state representatives and senators. As soon as Rep. Mask gets that bill together, I'll be ready to support it.

    - Neo

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    smttysmth02gt wrote:
    I disagree with his statement about other Sheriff's. I can guarantee you that Mr. Sam Cochran does NOT share the same opinion.
    You should take him to court. He probably needs education on Looney v. State, and Morris v. State. They are cited in an AL AG opinion, and I've posted them in the past somewhere in the AL forum.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Mobile, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    341

    Post imported post

    I cited those particular cases when I wrote him a letter asking how he would instruct his deputies to handle OC encounters. I never got a reply, and he continues to instruct the pistol permit office clerks to inform applicants that OC is illegal.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    Well, I can't fault you for trying. I guess one of the following needs to happen:

    1. Someone in some county somewhere needs to take one of these sheriffs to court, as open carry has already been found lawful in the aforementioned cases, and the Sheriffs are illegally bypassing the legislature with their own restrictions.

    2. Alabamians need to push for a legislative remedy. (Clarify the Code of AL to permit open carry, [expressly authorize it, or remove any and all use of the word "concealed" thereby authorizing open carry by default as was done here in TN.) Another option would be to simply strip sheriffs of the power to issue permits and give it to a state agency with a uniform procedure. (This was also done in TN in 1996, due to inconsistent processes from county to county and similar nonsense from sheriffs on power trips.)

  20. #20
    Regular Member BluesStringer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Madison, AL
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    ProguninTN wrote:
    Well, I can't fault you for trying. I guess one of the following needs to happen:

    1. Someone in some county somewhere needs to take one of these sheriffs to court, as open carry has already been found lawful in the aforementioned cases, and the Sheriffs are illegally bypassing the legislature with their own restrictions.

    2. Alabamians need to push for a legislative remedy. (Clarify the Code of AL to permit open carry, [expressly authorize it, or remove any and all use of the word "concealed" thereby authorizing open carry by default as was done here in TN.) Another option would be to simply strip sheriffs of the power to issue permits and give it to a state agency with a uniform procedure. (This was also done in TN in 1996, due to inconsistent processes from county to county and similar nonsense from sheriffs on power trips.)
    I'd be all for #1, but the second option in #2 I would want no part of. As it is now, permits vary by $5 or $10 bucks from county to county. In my county (Limestone), a permit is $15. I used to live in Cullman and it was $10 bucks back then. I think Madison County is $20 or $25. You go putting the permit issuance in the hands of some state-wide bureaucracy and we'll not only be paying over $100 bucks for the permit every year, but there'll be anywhere from $100 to $350 mandated safety courses before you can even qualify for a permit in no time at all.

    Also, it takes a 15 minute drive and about 2 - 5 minutes out of my life every year to have the permit in my wallet and headed out the door of the Sheriff's Office. Make it a state authority and we'll be waiting two weeks minimum for the thing to come in the mail.

    Now don't get me wrong. I neither support any permitting structure that stifles my free exercise of my God-given rights, nor do I have anything against folks being well-trained. I don't see any licensing structures in place for preachers to exercise their religious liberties or for news agencies to exercise theirs, so why I have to be licensed to exercise mine is something I greatly resent. But I don't want the structure made less accessible or more expensive, and that is surely what would happen under a state agency structure.

    Both my wife and I just finished our fourth advanced tactical training course last month, so I'm all for being well-trained, but I don't want the government dictating what courses we take, when we take 'em, or which organization that I may or may not trust (NRA) to be working in my best interests I have to pay to take 'em.

    If we have to be permitted, I much prefer the system we have now over any that I've looked at that are controlled at the state level.

    Blues
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to Police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    BluesStringer wrote:
    ProguninTN wrote:
    Well, I can't fault you for trying. I guess one of the following needs to happen:

    1. Someone in some county somewhere needs to take one of these sheriffs to court, as open carry has already been found lawful in the aforementioned cases, and the Sheriffs are illegally bypassing the legislature with their own restrictions.

    2. Alabamians need to push for a legislative remedy. (Clarify the Code of AL to permit open carry, [expressly authorize it, or remove any and all use of the word "concealed" thereby authorizing open carry by default as was done here in TN.) Another option would be to simply strip sheriffs of the power to issue permits and give it to a state agency with a uniform procedure. (This was also done in TN in 1996, due to inconsistent processes from county to county and similar nonsense from sheriffs on power trips.)
    I'd be all for #1, but the second option in #2 I would want no part of. As it is now, permits vary by $5 or $10 bucks from county to county. In my county (Limestone), a permit is $15. I used to live in Cullman and it was $10 bucks back then. I think Madison County is $20 or $25. You go putting the permit issuance in the hands of some state-wide bureaucracy and we'll not only be paying over $100 bucks for the permit every year, but there'll be anywhere from $100 to $350 mandated safety courses before you can even qualify for a permit in no time at all.

    Also, it takes a 15 minute drive and about 2 - 5 minutes out of my life every year to have the permit in my wallet and headed out the door of the Sheriff's Office. Make it a state authority and we'll be waiting two weeks minimum for the thing to come in the mail.

    Now don't get me wrong. I neither support any permitting structure that stifles my free exercise of my God-given rights, nor do I have anything against folks being well-trained. I don't see any licensing structures in place for preachers to exercise their religious liberties or for news agencies to exercise theirs, so why I have to be licensed to exercise mine is something I greatly resent. But I don't want the structure made less accessible or more expensive, and that is surely what would happen under a state agency structure.

    Both my wife and I just finished our fourth advanced tactical training course last month, so I'm all for being well-trained, but I don't want the government dictating what courses we take, when we take 'em, or which organization that I may or may not trust (NRA) to be working in my best interests I have to pay to take 'em.

    If we have to be permitted, I much prefer the system we have now over any that I've looked at that are controlled at the state level.

    Blues
    Blues, I can agree with not wanting training courses. (They are more obstacles.) However, I still maintain that it is asinine that the cost varies from county to county, and that some sheriffs usurp the role of the state legislature with their illegal restrictions. (I actually know people who moved from 1 AL county to another and their permit fees went up. Counties involved were Jefferson, Lee, and Madison.) I'm no fan of bureaucracy either, but even if the county sheriffs are the issuing authority, the process should be the same statewide.

    Respectfully, Progun.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Eight Mile, , USA
    Posts
    234

    Post imported post

    ProguninTN wrote:
    smttysmth02gt wrote:
    I disagree with his statement about other Sheriff's. I can guarantee you that Mr. Sam Cochran does NOT share the same opinion.
    You should take him to court. He probably needs education on Looney v. State, and Morris v. State. They are cited in an AL AG opinion, and I've posted them in the past somewhere in the AL forum.
    1. Money.
    2. Time.
    3. Knowledge.
    4. Repercussions.
    5. I don't OC unless I'm on private property.

    I do think someone should, just not me.

  23. #23
    Regular Member BluesStringer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Madison, AL
    Posts
    30

    Post imported post

    ProguninTN said: "However, I still maintain that it is asinine that the cost varies from county to county, and that some sheriffs usurp the role of the state legislature with their illegal restrictions.


    Hey Progun,

    These are two separate issues as I see them, so let me address them as such.

    1) "Asinine" that costs vary from county to county? I see it as quite logical. It costs more to run a Sheriff's Dept. in Madison County than it does in Limestone, therefore the services offered cost more. Choosing to live in a given county always involves compromises on either services offered or the cost of those services. My property taxes in Limestone are WAY less expensive than Madison. My services are also less. The City of Madison is right across the street from me and is where we lived before moving to a Madison PO address that is actually in Limestone County 10 years ago. Madison has trash pickup twice a week. Limestone only picks up once a week. The vast majority of Madison County is on public sewer. We've got a septic tank. More services, more people employed to deliver those services equals higher cost of services offered. A larger Sheriff's Dept. with larger jails, busier courts, more and bigger administrative buildings and staff equals higher costs than it takes to offer the same services in Limestone. I see nothing at all asinine about that.

    What would seem asinine to me is if they did standardize the cost between counties and my cost goes up $5 or $10 bucks a year while the higher-cost counties' charge stayed the same. That would mean that I would be subsidizing their costs. No thanks. That ain't fair, and would pretty much make moot my rationale for moving literally across the street to save on what it costs me to live.

    2) Sheriffs taking it upon themselves to usurp state law is illegal according to the very law they're supposed to be upholding. I have no disagreement with you at all that that problem needs to be dealt with in a standardized fashion across the state. However, that is a function of the A.G. and courts doing the job they're already elected/hired to do and I can see no reason at all why it should cost the state more. It's a function of activists doing what we are always responsible for doing; educating our representatives and holding our courts' and law enforcement agencies' feet to the fire to uphold their oaths. You're absolutely right, the proscribed process should be the same from county to county, but that can (and should) be accomplished without making lower-cost counties subsidize increased costs in bigger, more expensive counties.

    Blues
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to Police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    416

    Post imported post

    Blues,

    As far as 2. goes, I'm glad we agree.

    For 1., I understand that the cost of doing business varies from county to county. I can understand not wanting to pay for other counties.

    I guess it boils down to the fact that you prefer that counties issue the permit. (You don't trust a centralized state agency for possible bureaucratic problems. I do respect that. That is a legitimate concern, and I have heard of problems with the TN Dept. of Safety which needed correcting, and were corrected)

    I prefer a state agency for the purposes of uniformity in both procedure and cost. (I don't trust the counties, due to history abuses in TN, and I am of the opinion that being a statewide permit, the state should bear the burden of issuing/funding said permits. Driver licenses, gun permits, etc all cost the same in TN unlike AL.) I am aware that drivers licenses can also vary in cost in AL due to county probate courts being responsible for their issuance. I guess this is one area where we agree to disagree.

    Respectfully,
    Progun.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •