imported post
Hello Everyone
It’s me, your favorite LEO.
As to Gundude’s comment’s I will just skip over them, because quite frankly I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest, and quite honestly Gundude you really don’t have anything to bring to the table as of yet.
For those of you who were wondering, yes I am here to stay, not to spy on you, as Gundude may believe, but to gain insight, and hopefully make a positive change for my fellow officers and me when it comes to OC.
Yes you are a “Super Minority in California” as ConditionThree pointed out. Unfortunately that is what makes this issue so hard for LEO’s to wrap their heads around. We “as in I and other officers” have not had contact with a person who is OCing. That makes it tough for us, because most departments are made up of more than 20 to 30% of officers with less than two years experience (another words new hires). Us older guys are learning stuff from them, that to be quite honest blows our minds. They on the other hand are so gung ho that unfortunately rights and liberties do get trampled on by both older officers and younger officers alike.
I personally have learned a lot from this forum and am more open now to the idea of OC. Prior to the Channel 5 KPIX news clip, I had no idea that this was going on. I knew that it was possible to OC, back from my academy days, but in 15 plus years, I have never heard of or seen anyone do it. So you can say you have made an inroad into at least one LEO’s opinions and decision-making process.
Coolusername 2007 asked if in the academy we go through Constitutional law training? The answer is yes. In my day it was a very limited subject, but it was still taught, Now that California Police officers who go through the academy are sent longer than the 3 months that I went through it (I believe it is closer to 5 or 6 months), and the intense in house training, and field training, I would like to believe that they do get expanded training in constitutional law, but again I can’t be sure about that until I get back to the department tonight and ask one of our rookies. I would be happy to dig up one of my old academy binders, but again it’s so old it’s out of date, in regards to current training practices. As far as a constitutional law class syllabus that is easy and hard. You could always write P.O.S.T. (Police Officers Standards and Training) and obtain what they require for all academies to teach on that subject throughout the state. The hard part comes, because there are so many different police academy’s in California, The instructor ultimately has control over less plans, how the subject is taught, and to some degree what they want to emphasize in regards to a specific subject, including constitutional law.
NightOwl brought up some interesting thoughts. NightOwl I agree 100 and ten percent when you bring up that LEO’s will not always be there to protect you, and that usually we arrive after the fact that a crime has been committed. I don’t have a problem with people defending themselves at all. All I ask, is that if it is at all possible (time permitting) that you call your local LEO’s and hopefully they will get there to protect you. In my city, response times are 2 to 3 minutes and when seconds count, you are not going to have a chance to pick up the phone and dial 911. When I was shot at it seemed like it took forever to hear the sounds of those glorious sirens coming to help me. So again don’t be afraid to take the law into your own hands, when it comes down to life or death issues, phone calls can wait. Your life is more important than a phone call to 911! You are right as far as LEO’s taking a report of a stolen vehicle or burglary is not “protection”, but it is a way of LEO’s trying to recover your property, and prosecute the guilty parties. Now if you are talking about LEO’s responding to a call of a burglary or stolen vehicle, neither you nor we can legally use deadly force to stop such a crime unless our lives or yours are put in jeopardy. Yes you will see us draw our firearms for these types of in progress crimes, but that is an extra measure to ensure the suspect we are contacting (1) complies with our orders, and (2) for officer safety in case the suspect is armed. Property crimes are never a reason for LEO’s or citizens to use deadly force.
In answer to you exercising your rights not to answer our questions after being contacted for an OC, all we are trying to find out is that the reason for you OC’ing is just for that reason. We may ask more questions like “Why do you want to OC?” and all you should have to say is that you are exercising your rights granted to you under the law, that’s it. In regards to Gundude (I swear I was not going to talk about him again..Opp’s) not answering any questions, that would lead us to a reasonable suspicion (enough for a misdemeanor) to bring him in until he is ready to tell LEO’s what I had just mentioned. People who don’t answer LEO’s questions often have something to hide, and again we are just doing our jobs by investigating a possible commission of a crime. As I have said over and over again we are not mind readers, so we cannot tell a persons intent without a dialogue. Again I apologize to you and everyone else out there who have read my posts, who don’t agree with me, but I am just trying my best to fill in the blanks and change the disconnect between LEO’s and OC citizens. I am not as you said, “Piss(ing) all over people when they don’t give you (me) what you (I) believe to be proper respect”, and that I need to “grow up”. I am not here to make friends, if so I would be on some sort of social network. I am here to understand how we can bridge any divide between LEO’s and law abiding OC citizens. I am also here to hopefully help you expand your rights to loaded OC and even CCW. Finally Let me address your post dated Jan 18th 2010/1739 hours regarding concealed and non concealed. Yes non-concealed gives us a much faster reaction/draw time. In my experience working undercover and plain clothes as a detective, I was also trained to react and draw from a concealed wearing. I found that while draw time was slightly diminished, in real life applications, people who didn’t know I was carrying allowed me to get the drop on them quicker. Your uniformed LEO’s wear firearms openly (1) As a sign and visual deterrent that they are armed, and that they are physically out their in front of the public on a daily basis enforcing the laws. If they were to carry concealed, unfortunately the uniform gives away the fact that they are carrying a firearm. Just a little piece of inside info, most departments send in their plain-clothes officers fist on a hold up alarm. This is so they don’t startle the perpetrators, which may cause them to do something hasty while a uniformed officer would. My point being that if the bad guys of this country don’t know who is armed and who isn’t, and that is a known fact to the general population, then it is quite possible that armed assaults on citizens would go down substantially.
AIC869, again thank you for your comments to my post. Glad to hear your Grand mother is moving up in the Taco bell world and eating a better class of fast food. You made a very valid point, that cars are also a very deadly weapon as per 245 P.C.. You could actually look at the statistics and find that 23152 C.V.C (dui), has caused more deaths then firearms in every given year. I conduct a program that was designed in the late 1990’s called every 15 minutes. If you don’t know about it, it is basically a program to help teens make the smart decision not to get behind the wheel of a vehicle after drinking. The premise is that in 1990 every 15 minutes someone was killed or seriously injured in the United State by an intoxicated driver. Since the 90’s that figure has changed, but not for the better, it is more like every 11 minutes. Finally I am getting everyone who has contributed to my responses about OC. Again it is still my desire to expand your rights and allow loaded OC, and CCW permits to be issued more readily by departments.
Regarding your UMass study, I appreciate the insight. Do you know what year it was conducted and who specifically commissioned the study? Any information would be appreciated.
Finally I would like to ask everyone on this forum, does the OC movement have a chairman or someone who can speak on everyone’s behalf. You seem like a well-organized group. If you don’t have a chairperson, I think you should address that. Just like the NRA or California Waterfowl Association, where I pay dues to protect my rights, I think if you had a Chairman, you could get a lot accomplished. I know that this is a tight economy, and everyone hates to pay for his or her rights, which should be free, but freedom isn’t always free. I think to desensitize the public and LEO’s through out every state, you need more air time on T.V., More people fighting for your rights, more Law Enforcement involvement and training. Basically I think if your organization had more muscle, be it political, or just education, I believe that your organization would have more traction in “decriminalizing your basic rights”. Just a thought that I wanted to put out there for you all to think about. Heck I would pay to join such an organization.