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What's the Big Deal?

H

hoffmang

Regular Member
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Peninsula, Bay Area, CA
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The Calguns Foundation is scared of government... Mmmhm... http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/in...nt/article/79-what-has-cgf-done-for-me-lately

I will tell you what concerns me though. Watching UOCers who aren't fully informed lose their gun rights for 10 years. We California gun owners have 1 already convicted and there is likely to be another. So far open carrying in urban california has only cost an individual his gun rights and all of us another bad gun bill.

Make sure you know the risks and have the money to burn when you have to defend yourself. The main reason for the standdown was that LOC was going to be available in urban areas by permit, but some open carrier (loaded but out of his licensed county) ended that for everyone.

-Gene
 
C

CA_Libertarian

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Stanislaus County, California, USA
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I can't help but be suspicious that some of the most outspoken "keep on OCing" crowd may be intentionally harming our cause. Not only are they harming the open carry cause, but also creating a rift. Dividing and conquering.

If I were an anti, this is exactly what I would do:

  • Infiltrate the web forum, posing as a patriot and OC-proponent.
  • Find a point of contention among the group and exploit it to cause infighting.
  • Encourage people to engage in behavior that harms the cause by exploiting their emotions (e.g. strong desire to "live free or die")
  • Belittle, demonize, and otherwise attack the strongest of the group (e.g. CalGuns Foundation).
I'm not saying anybody who does anything described above is an inflitrator... I give each person the benefit of the doubt that they're just naive and/or stubborn. However, I just wanted to put my hypothesis out there that we need to question the motives of every person voicing their opinions here.
 
coolusername2007

coolusername2007

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Temecula, California, USA
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hoffmang wrote:
The Calguns Foundation is scared of government... Mmmhm... http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/79-what-has-cgf-done-for-me-lately

I will tell you what concerns me though. Watching UOCers who aren't fully informed lose their gun rights for 10 years. We California gun owners have 1 already convicted and there is likely to be another. So far open carrying in urban california has only cost an individual his gun rights and all of us another bad gun bill.

Make sure you know the risks and have the money to burn when you have to defend yourself. The main reason for the standdown was that LOC was going to be available in urban areas by permit, but some open carrier (loaded but out of his licensed county) ended that for everyone.

-Gene
Click to expand...

Did I miss something? I don't know of a single "non-fully informed" UOC'er lose their gun rights for 10 years. Yes, Theseus did, but he was fully informed on the PC's.

Yes, the LOC permit option has died, but as correctly stated, and I re-state for emphasis...this individual was LOC'ing legally by permit. He was not freely unloadedopen carrying as we do. By this event, it seems to me the "CCW crowd" has caused more of a problem for LOC than any UOC'er has.
 
coolusername2007

coolusername2007

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Pace wrote:
Amen.

This made me write my next post about "standing down."

http://www.libertypace.com/journal/2010/1/18/california-open-carriers-stand-down.html
Click to expand...

I liked your article. But I don't believe CGF is afraid of, or colluding with the government. They are working with the NRA (and get funding from them if I'm not mistaken) which explains their anti-UOC stance. The NRA being what it is, a political organization, is willing to negotiate and compromise "for the greater good" and theyare not excited aboutLOC.And CGF has not been silent on this, they have openly discussed the fact thatthe majority of their supporters are pro-CCW, rather than pro-LOC. Which is whytheyhave been moving towards permitted CCWfirst andpossibly LOC second (or third).

To me, and I could be wrong here, the Mulford Act shouldhave been challenged on 4A grounds at some point in the last 40 years, but AFAIKnobody ever did. This I don't understand. But again, I could be completely wrong on this.
 
N

N6ATF

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San Diego County, CA, California, USA
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coolusername2007 wrote:
hoffmang wrote:
The Calguns Foundation is scared of government... Mmmhm... http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/79-what-has-cgf-done-for-me-lately

I will tell you what concerns me though. Watching UOCers who aren't fully informed lose their gun rights for 10 years. We California gun owners have 1 already convicted and there is likely to be another. So far open carrying in urban california has only cost an individual his gun rights and all of us another bad gun bill.

Make sure you know the risks and have the money to burn when you have to defend yourself. The main reason for the standdown was that LOC was going to be available in urban areas by permit, but some open carrier (loaded but out of his licensed county) ended that for everyone.

-Gene
Click to expand...

Did I miss something? I don't know of a single "non-fully informed" UOC'er lose their gun rights for 10 years. Yes, Theseus did, but he was fully informed on the PC's.
Click to expand...
Basically it all amounts to:
Follow the law: be persecuted
Break the law (police): go unprosecuted
 
H

hoffmang

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Peninsula, Bay Area, CA
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CGF receives no funding from NRA.

Theseus knew the PC, but he didn't know he was in a GFSZ and didn't understand the case law about private property. A 70 year old UOCer was arrested in a school district in the bay area about 30-60 days ago. He'd seen it on TV so I bet he had no idea about GFSZ.

Another UOCer was arrested for concealed in the south bay. It's early to know if that arrest has any validity.

The guy in LA was carrying on an open carry permit that was technically invalid.

-Gene
 
coolusername2007

coolusername2007

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hoffmang wrote:
CGF receives no funding from NRA.

Theseus knew the PC, but he didn't know he was in a GFSZ and didn't understand the case law about private property. A 70 year old UOCer was arrested in a school district in the bay area about 30-60 days ago. He'd seen it on TV so I bet he had no idea about GFSZ.

Another UOCer was arrested for concealed in the south bay. It's early to know if that arrest has any validity.

The guy in LA was carrying on an open carry permit that was technically invalid.

-Gene
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification/correction on the topic of NRA funding.

There was discussion recentlyabout the 70 year old indicating that no charges were going to be filed. Has that changed, have charges been filed yet? I am aware they still have plenty of time to do so.
 
D

dirtykoala

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Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
644
imported post

hoffmang wrote:
The Calguns Foundation is scared of government... Mmmhm... http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/79-what-has-cgf-done-for-me-lately

I will tell you what concerns me though. Watching UOCers who aren't fully informed lose their gun rights for 10 years. We California gun owners have 1 already convicted and there is likely to be another. So far open carrying in urban california has only cost an individual his gun rights and all of us another bad gun bill.

Make sure you know the risks and have the money to burn when you have to defend yourself. The main reason for the standdown was that LOC was going to be available in urban areas by permit, but some open carrier (loaded but out of his licensed county) ended that for everyone.

-Gene
Click to expand...

"some open carrier"... this has been the attitude at calguns in re to this topic, blaming open carriers period. if this is valid, then why not just blame gun owners in general while we are at it. if everyone in CA or even the US turned in their guns, this "open carrier" could not have done anything wrong with a firearm and no new laws would have been made.

PLEASE TURN IN OR DESTROY YOUR FIREARMS TO PREVENT FURTHER RESTRICTIONS AGAINST THEM!!!!!!
 
H

hoffmang

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It is unclear at this time whether charges will be filed, but, having some experience with these types of things, I don't like the odds.

-Gene
 
Gundude

Gundude

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Sandy Eggo County
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dirtykoala wrote:
hoffmang wrote:
The Calguns Foundation is scared of government... Mmmhm... http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/component/content/article/79-what-has-cgf-done-for-me-lately

I will tell you what concerns me though. Watching UOCers who aren't fully informed lose their gun rights for 10 years. We California gun owners have 1 already convicted and there is likely to be another. So far open carrying in urban california has only cost an individual his gun rights and all of us another bad gun bill.

Make sure you know the risks and have the money to burn when you have to defend yourself. The main reason for the standdown was that LOC was going to be available in urban areas by permit, but some open carrier (loaded but out of his licensed county) ended that for everyone.

-Gene
Click to expand...

"some open carrier"... this has been the attitude at calguns in re to this topic, blaming open carriers period. if this is valid, then why not just blame gun owners in general while we are at it. if everyone in CA or even the US turned in their guns, this "open carrier" could not have done anything wrong with a firearm and no new laws would have been made.

PLEASE TURN IN OR DESTROY YOUR FIREARMS TO PREVENT FURTHER RESTRICTIONS AGAINST THEM!!!!!!
Click to expand...

I question your cause and effect assertion. Because one persone carried out of his county?

Where did you hear that LOC was going to be available. I would like to know the source.
 
H

hoffmang

Regular Member
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Messages
120
Location
Peninsula, Bay Area, CA
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Gundude wrote:
I question your cause and effect assertion. Because one persone carried out of his county?

Where did you hear that LOC was going to be available. I would like to know the source.
Click to expand...
Before AB-1363, any license issued pursuant to 12050 exempted you from 12031. Now you have to carry in the manner the license was issued via 12050:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1351-1400/ab_1363_bill_20091011_chaptered.html

The bill sponsors explains the reason for the bill here:
Code: 
"Some of these people that have been authorized to carry a  
loaded and exposed weapon have been going to other  
counties, with a population of over 200,000, with the  
loaded and exposed weapon, which is a violation of their  
CCW authorization.  Currently in law, Section 12031 of the  
California Penal Code, which is the law making it illegal  
to carry a loaded firearm in public, provides for an  
exception to an individual who has a CCW permit.  However,  
the exception does not appropriately address the two  
different CCW authorizations.  By making a simple language  
change to the exception, Section 12031 will properly  
address the two different CCW authorizations and provide a  
penalty for individuals who abuse their CCW privileges."
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1351-1400/ab_1363_cfa_20090710_111410_sen_floor.html

-Gene
 
Gundude

Gundude

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Sandy Eggo County
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hoffmang wrote:
Gundude wrote:
I question your cause and effect assertion. Because one persone carried out of his county?

Where did you hear that LOC was going to be available. I would like to know the source.
Click to expand...
Before AB-1363, any license issued pursuant to 12050 exempted you from 12031. Now you have to carry in the manner the license was issued via 12050:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1351-1400/ab_1363_bill_20091011_chaptered.html

The bill sponsors explains the reason for the bill here:
Code: 
"Some of these people that have been authorized to carry a 
loaded and exposed weapon have been going to other 
counties, with a population of over 200,000, with the 
loaded and exposed weapon, which is a violation of their 
CCW authorization. Currently in law, Section 12031 of the 
California Penal Code, which is the law making it illegal 
to carry a loaded firearm in public, provides for an 
exception to an individual who has a CCW permit. However, 
the exception does not appropriately address the two 
different CCW authorizations. By making a simple language 
change to the exception, Section 12031 will properly 
address the two different CCW authorizations and provide a 
penalty for individuals who abuse their CCW privileges."
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1351-1400/ab_1363_cfa_20090710_111410_sen_floor.html

-Gene
Click to expand...
I was hoping for somthing like Alaska has...no permit for any kind of carry. I would settle for what Nevada has for LOC. No law regarding LOC and shall issue for CCW.
 
Sons of Liberty

Sons of Liberty

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Riverside, California, USA
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The legislature is going to do what its going to do. CGF did not stop it with the change in the CCW regulations.

It's time to stand up and be counted!

Let their true colors be shown! Let it come! Let it come!
 
H

hoffmang

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Sons of Liberty wrote:
The legislature is going to do what its going to do. CGF did not stop it with the change in the CCW regulations.

It's time to stand up and be counted!

Let their true colors be shown! Let it come! Let it come!
Click to expand...
Doesn't that mean you should loaded open carry in a school zone? I mean that is a true protest, right?

-Gene
 
coolusername2007

coolusername2007

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Temecula, California, USA
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hoffmang wrote:
Sons of Liberty wrote:
The legislature is going to do what its going to do. CGF did not stop it with the change in the CCW regulations.

It's time to stand up and be counted!

Let their true colors be shown! Let it come! Let it come!
Click to expand...
Doesn't that mean you should loaded open carry in a school zone? I mean that is a true protest, right?

-Gene
Click to expand...
Gene, I've noticed that you love to play that card. Would you defend him to the last penny if he did?
 
H

hoffmang

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
120
Location
Peninsula, Bay Area, CA
imported post

coolusername2007 wrote:
hoffmang wrote:
Sons of Liberty wrote:
The legislature is going to do what its going to do. CGF did not stop it with the change in the CCW regulations.

It's time to stand up and be counted!

Let their true colors be shown! Let it come! Let it come!
Click to expand...
Doesn't that mean you should loaded open carry in a school zone? I mean that is a true protest, right?

-Gene
Click to expand...
Gene, I've noticed that you love to play that card. Would you defend him to the last penny if he did?
Click to expand...
Not at all.

I like to use the system against itself. That requires understanding the system and how it reacts to threats. One of my ongoing concerns is the rhetoric used to defend activity that is mostly politically dangerous. The debate is about which compromises to make when, not whether to compromise.

UOCers decide to follow the law as written even though it is their right to carry a loaded firearm for self defense. They make a cost benefit analysis about following the law. However, they then tell everyone else that they don't make a cost/benefit analysis and that rights are pure, etc. etc.

So far, in California open carry has cost 1 person his gun rights and made it so you can't carry in one major restaurant chain. There are two arrests pending charges out there. In addition, the legislature closed the LOC with a license loophole. I'm not seeing much benefit.

The good news is that there is not much left to lose since we all lost LOC with a permit.

-Gene
 
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