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Thread: is a no firearms sign enforceable

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    In Colorado is there a specific sign a private or public entity needs to use to prohibit entrance to people carrying. Is a sign immediately enforceable or only becomes criminal trespass if you are told to leave and refuse?

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    Since the business is private property, they do have the right to have you leave, just as you have the right to tell someone to leave your home. If the person requested to leave refuses, it is trespass, thus breaking the law.
    ”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

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    I concur with desettle regarding a privately-owned business. No, there is not a specific sign required by statute.

    You also mentioned "public entity". If by that you mean a facility of a state or local government, the answer gets more complicated. For state or local government facilities, CC can only be prevented in very narrowly and statutorily defined circumstances (CRS 18-12-214). For state or local government facilities, OC can be prevented only if all entrances to a specific place are posted "no OC" (CRS 29-11.7-104). Of course the exception is Denver's court-approved generalOC prohibition.


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    The reason I asked the question isbecause in Texas if the proper sign is posted then you can automatically be arrested for Criminal Trespass. In Nevada for example you can ignore the sign (if not on a public building) and you will be arrested only if you refuse to leave once told to do so. Based on your answer if a private business has a sign it would only become an issue if you refuse to leave once asked to do so. Am I right?

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    Yes. There is no Colorado equivalent of Texas's famous 30.06 sign.

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    If I see a "no guns" sign I just conceal. Signs don't really mean anything in Colorado on private property as far as the law is concerned. If you go in there with a CCW and you have a permit and keep it hidden, nobody will know about it. If, however, they ask you to leave because they somehow know you are carrying, you have to obey that request.

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    desettle wrote:
    Since the business is private property, they do have the right to have you leave, just as you have the right to tell someone to leave your home. If the person requested to leave refuses, it is trespass, thus breaking the law.
    Is there any legal difference between "request" and "demand?"

    Earlier this evening, I asked a friend of mine at Walmart whom I know is an avid supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. He merely parroted the local Wal-Mart policy: "We have been instructed to ask all open-carriers to leave."

    When I asked about the policy for concealed carriers, he said, "I'm sure they come in here all the time. We have no policy about that."

    When I asked him of his recommendation, he said, "I'd recommend you get your CWP and be done with it."

    Please note this individual is very down to earth, rational, very pro-2nd Amendment, and with a military LEO background.

    Repeat: he's realistic.

    Thoughts on how to get this "policy" overturned? Note: A mass storm of the place is not the answer!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    since9 wrote:
    desettle wrote:
    Since the business is private property, they do have the right to have you leave, just as you have the right to tell someone to leave your home. If the person requested to leave refuses, it is trespass, thus breaking the law.
    Is there any legal difference between "request" and "demand?"

    Earlier this evening, I asked a friend of mine at Walmart whom I know is an avid supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. He merely parroted the local Wal-Mart policy: "We have been instructed to ask all open-carriers to leave."

    When I asked about the policy for concealed carriers, he said, "I'm sure they come in here all the time. We have no policy about that."

    When I asked him of his recommendation, he said, "I'd recommend you get your CWP and be done with it."

    Please note this individual is very down to earth, rational, very pro-2nd Amendment, and with a military LEO background.

    Repeat: he's realistic.

    Thoughts on how to get this "policy" overturned? Note: A mass storm of the place is not the answer!
    As far as a difference between request or demand, I don't think in the eyes of the law there is any difference. If the porperty owner (business owner) ask or tells you to leave, you have to obey. It is thier right to do so. It is also your right to not do business with them.



    As far as Walmart goes and what can be done about it. I would recommend that a petition, requesting them have thier OC policy changed and why,be created and posted on this site to have all interested parties sign it. I say this sight because Walmart is a multi-state company and you would need as many signatures as possible to overturn thier policy decision.

    -desettle
    ”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

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    I just hope it doesn't take a tragedy to awaken Wal Mart officials and open their eyes.

    But you could always go with the whole- "You sell guns in the back.... So..."

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    since9 wrote:
    Thoughts on how to get this "policy" overturned?
    You are correct to use quotation marks. This may be the off-the-cuff policy of the manager of this particular WalMart, but it's not truly WalMart corporate policy.

    I have seen multiple threads in several fora where various OCers have contacted WalMart corporate legal counsel and been informed that the corporate policy is to conform to the laws in whatever state the WalMart facility is located. If OC is legal in the state, WalMart corporate policy says it's OK in that WalMart. Reports commonly indicate that the corporate counsel subsequently instructed the offending manager what the policy actually is, and the OCers reported that they were then able to OC in the affected WalMart with no further hassle.









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    Cansomeone who has a contact at Walmart's legal department get a paper copy of their "official" policy for their local store managers?

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    bogidu wrote:
    Cansomeone who has a contact at Walmart's legal department get a paper copy of their "official" policy for their local store managers?
    I've talked with them and they wouldnt put anything in writing even though I asked them to do so. They told me that their policy is to follow state law. However, a store can ask someone who is carrying to leave at their discretion. I think they told the same thing to Buckskinner when he called them.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    Per IAN:

    If I see a "no guns" sign I just conceal. Signs don't really mean anything in Colorado on private property as far as the law is concerned. If you go in there with a CCW and you have a permit and keep it hidden, nobody will know about it. If, however, they ask you to leave because they somehow know you are carrying, you have to obey that request.


    I totally agree.

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    Anubis wrote:
    since9 wrote:
    Thoughts on how to get this "policy" overturned?
    You are correct to use quotation marks. This may be the off-the-cuff policy of the manager of this particular WalMart, but it's not truly WalMart corporate policy.

    I have seen multiple threads in several fora where various OCers have contacted WalMart corporate legal counsel and been informed that the corporate policy is to conform to the laws in whatever state the WalMart facility is located. If OC is legal in the state, WalMart corporate policy says it's OK in that WalMart. Reports commonly indicate that the corporate counsel subsequently instructed the offending manager what the policy actually is, and the OCers reported that they were then able to OC in the affected WalMart with no further hassle.

    It is simply the policy of this local Wal-Mart.

    You're correct about Wal-Mart's corporate policy to conform to the laws of the state. That's misleading, however, as it's entirely within Colorado State Law for a local store to have a "no OC" and/or a "no CC" policy.

    Now, if you have a letter from Wal-Mart's corporate office specifically prohibiting it's stores from havinga "no OC" and/or a "no CC" policyif either is conducted commensurate with state law, please share it, here, so that I can hand carry it to the manager and ask that he respect corporate policy!


    Diocoles - CC iswhat my friend at the store recommended. He also mentioned their manager's biggest concern was allowing activity within the store that may create a potential "scene," and said, "you can be arrested for disturbing the peace if you open carry and someone throws a fit." THAT part I didn't agree with at all, and told him so, with: "The individual who throws a fit at the sight of someone going about their lawful business would be the one disturbing the peace!"

    Sheesh, of all the twisted logic I hear from people...
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    since9 wrote:
    "you can be arrested for disturbing the peace if you open carry and someone throws a fit."...
    Sheesh, of all the twisted logic I hear from people...
    It is twisted logic but Colorado state law states:

    18-9-106. Disorderly conduct. (1)
    A person commits disorderly conduct if he or she intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly:
    (a) Makes a coarse and obviously offensive utterance, gesture, or display in a public place and the utterance, gesture, or display tends to incite an immediate breach of the peace; or
    (b) (Deleted by amendment, L. 2000, p. 708, § 39, effective July 1, 2000.)
    (c) Makes unreasonable noise in a public place or near a private residence that he has no right to occupy; or
    (d) Fights with another in a public place except in an amateur or professional contest of athletic skill; or
    (e) Not being a peace officer, discharges a firearm in a public place except when engaged in lawful target practice or hunting; or
    (f) Not being a peace officer, displays a deadly weapon, displays any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon, or represents verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm.



    (3) (a) An offense under paragraph (a) or (c) of subsection (1) of this section is a class 1 petty offense; except that, if the offense is committed with intent to disrupt, impair, or interfere with a funeral, or with intent to cause severe emotional distress to a person attending a funeral, it is a class 2 misdemeanor.

    (b) An offense under paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of this section is a class 3 misdemeanor.

    (c) An offense under paragraph (e) or (f) of subsection (1) of this section is a class 2 misdemeanor.

    Not sure, but it appears that even having your gun displayed could be considered as Disturbing the Peace. This is not brandishing (which would be a Federal Offence) but simply having your weapon displayed could be considered in this way.

    Any comments on this?

    -desettle

    ”This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” ~Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

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    But officer "It wasn't in a manner calculated to alarm"
    Officer "You know OC causes alarm. People get really nervous and call 911"

    Ten bucks says you get arrested for it no matter what and the cops say "Sort out the calculated to alarm business with the judge"

    Hope that's not how it works out. We're all carrying daily and there aren't daily reports of charges of disorderly conduct for this so I think it's a non issue. At least, in my area?

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    I personally contaced Brice Moomaw, Captain over the CCW in Arapahoe County.

    Accidental "printing" or revealing of a concealed weapon, such as reaching to a top shelf in a store is not to be considered as brandishing.

    If, in Arapahoe County, you ever have such an encounter, tell the officer to contact Bryce Moomaw and he will straighten the officer out.

    Brice Moomaw (Bmoomaw@co.arapahoe.co.us)


    720-874-4041

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    since9 wrote:
    Earlier this evening, I asked a friend of mine at Walmart whom I know is an avid supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. He merely parroted the local Wal-Mart policy: "We have been instructed to ask all open-carriers to leave."
    Which location?

    I've OC'd at the WM by Chapel Hills Mall, 8th Street, and East Woodmen all without incident.

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    Count wrote:
    In Colorado is there a specific sign a private or public entity needs to use to prohibit entrance to people carrying. Is a sign immediately enforceable or only becomes criminal trespass if you are told to leave and refuse?
    To the best of my knowledge, there is no specific "30-06" for Colorado as mentioned elsewhere.

    However, I've attached several possible suggestions for business who're thinking of posting such signs so as to curb or eliminate 2A rights within the boundaries of their stores.

    Enjoy!


    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    RockyMtnScotsman wrote:
    since9 wrote:
    Earlier this evening, I asked a friend of mine at Walmart whom I know is an avid supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. He merely parroted the local Wal-Mart policy: "We have been instructed to ask all open-carriers to leave."
    Which location?

    I've OC'd at the WM by Chapel Hills Mall, 8th Street, and East Woodmen all without incident.
    That one (WM by CHM). They had an incident last week where a shoplifter pulled a weapon on exit, fired, and now the management is grossly overreacting.

    Stupid, yes. But typical.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Regarding the images, I'm thinking of having t-shirts made up - any takers? I'd adjust the alignment of the images to perfection, of course, commensurate with my accuracy on the range.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    since9 wrote:
    RockyMtnScotsman wrote:
    since9 wrote:
    Earlier this evening, I asked a friend of mine at Walmart whom I know is an avid supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. He merely parroted the local Wal-Mart policy: "We have been instructed to ask all open-carriers to leave."
    Which location?

    I've OC'd at the WM by Chapel Hills Mall, 8th Street, and East Woodmen all without incident.
    That one (WM by CHM). They had an incident last week where a shoplifter pulled a weapon on exit, fired, and now the management is grossly overreacting.

    Stupid, yes. But typical.
    Yes, I recall that incident and haven't been there (OC or otherwise) since. Not by design, I just don't go often. I wondered at the time if/how they'd react. If this policy stands, I'll go the extra distance to one of the other locations.

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