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Thread: Any 9mm make strong enough for +p+ ?

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    Regular Member mel5051's Avatar
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    This may be somewhere on here already. Are there any currently made 9mm's that do not carry the warning 'not to be used with +P and +P+ ammunition' ?



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    For liability's sake, most manufacturers will not 'OK' the use of +P+, however many current manunfacturers will 'OK' the use of +P ammo. That being said, I wouldn't use +P+ in a Keltec or HiPoint, but in GLOCKs, Sigs and Berettas, you shouldn't have a problem with limited use (how much +P+ can you afford?!?)

    I carryWinchesterRanger 127gr +P+ in my Kahr K9 Elite '03 (All-Steel gun), and have probably put around 300 rounds of said ammo through that gun. No problems or signs of over-pressure.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Depends which Glock. :P

    Does anybody really trust older Glocks with a partially unsupported feed ramp to safely contain the pressure of +P+ rounds? I wouldn't.

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    Regular Member mel5051's Avatar
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    I have a Walther P99 AS newest generation, with a DPM Recoil System spring/stainless steel rod.

    I have one box of the Winchester Rangers so far, haven't fired any of them, yet.


    Mel


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    Campaign Veteran gotm4's Avatar
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    mel5051 wrote:
    This may be somewhere on here already. Are there any currently made 9mm's that do not carry the warning 'not to be used with +P and +P+ ammunition' ?

    With Glocks I wouldn't worry about using some +P+ ammo. Glock 9mm handguns are chambered in 9mm NATO. 9mm NATO pressure (38,500 psi) is in the +P to +P+ range. I carry Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ in my Glock 19. I've fired in excess of 20K rounds of this through Glock pistols. Some +P+ ammo I'd be leary of depending on who made it since who knows what the pressure other than higher than SAAMI specs.
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    marshaul wrote:
    SNIP Does anybody really trust older Glocks with a partially unsupported feed ramp to safely contain the pressure of +P+ rounds? I wouldn't.
    Oh, cripes. Now, besides an unsupported chamber, I have to worry about unsupported feed ramps?
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    SNIP¬* Does anybody really trust older Glocks with a partially unsupported feed ramp to safely contain the pressure of +P+ rounds? I wouldn't.
    Oh, cripes.¬* Now, besides an unsupported chamber, I have to worry about unsupported feed ramps?¬*
    lol, that's what I get for constantly making off-hand jibes against Glocks. :P

    Of course you're correct. The problem is not that the feed ramp is unsupported per se, it's that the feed ramp is, for some reason, located all the way up in the chamber.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    gotm4 wrote:
    With Glocks I wouldn't worry about using some +P+ ammo.¬* Glock 9mm handguns are chambered in 9mm NATO.¬* 9mm NATO pressure (38,500 psi) is in the +P to +P+ range.¬* I carry Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ in my Glock 19.¬* I've fired in excess of 20K rounds of this through Glock pistols.¬* Some +P+ ammo I'd be leary of depending on who made it since who knows what the pressure other than higher than SAAMI specs.
    Yeah I know, I just can't resist Glock-bashing. It's like, one of the main functions of the Internet. :P

    Really, bullet setback is probably more likely to cause serious overpressure and a KB than properly loaded high-pressure factory ammo.

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    Campaign Veteran gotm4's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Yeah I know, I just can't resist Glock-bashing. It's like, one of the main functions of the Internet. :P

    Really, bullet setback is probably more likely to cause serious overpressure and a KB than properly loaded high-pressure factory ammo.
    That is the purpose of the internets!

    Setback I agree is most likely the cause. I would be very cautious with .40, 10mm and .45 Glocks as they aren't as supported in the chambers as 9mm. Being in the gun business I see all kinds of guns that people have blown up.
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    Hi-point rates their pistols for +P ammo. There is no SAAMI spec for +P+, so no one officially supports it.

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    CarryOpen wrote:
    Hi-point rates their pistols for +P ammo. There is no SAAMI spec for +P+, so no one officially supports it.
    Just be sure to wear a helmet if shooting +p in a Hi-Point! :what:
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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    My USP compact likes +P+ although it comes with quite a kick
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    If it doesnt start with at least a "4", its a target gun!:P:P:P

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    gotm4 wrote:
    CarryOpen wrote:
    Hi-point rates their pistols for +P ammo. There is no SAAMI spec for +P+, so no one officially supports it.
    Just be sure to wear a helmet if shooting +p in a Hi-Point! :what:
    Much like when we ask folks to cite law references, I'd like to see references of hi-points blowing up with regular or +P ammo. I have seen none. I own one of their carbines and have had great luck with it.

    I know several people who own or have owned their hand guns and have been quite happy with them. They seem to have quite a good reputation amongst their owners and quite a terrible one amongst everyone else.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    SNIP Does anybody really trust older Glocks with a partially unsupported feed ramp to safely contain the pressure of +P+ rounds? I wouldn't.
    Oh, cripes. Now, besides an unsupported chamber, I have to worry about unsupported feed ramps?
    lol, that's what I get for constantly making off-hand jibes against Glocks. :P

    Of course you're correct. The problem is not that the feed ramp is unsupported per se, it's that the feed ramp is, for some reason, located all the way up in the chamber.
    That might be because the cartridge being fed is required to travel all the way up in the chamber. Clever guy, that Gaston Glock, no?

    If you want the most reliable autoloader yet produced that keeps cycling under all kinds of environmental conditions, get a Glock.

    If you want a pistol capable of firing ++P+++++ ammo, do not get a Glock.

    By the way, the sole reason a few ammo makers produce +P+ is because some police depts like the warm fuzzy feeling from having something more "powerful" than "civilians" can carry so they make a +P+ load and sell it just to LEOs. (Accordingly, some "civilians" like the warm fuzzy feeling of having something sold only to LEOs :quirky).

    +P+ is nothing but a marketing ploy combined with increased and unnecessary recoil. A standard pressure 9mm will penetrate 2 car doors and keep on going. Anybody who needs more power than this....try .50 BMG.


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    The pressures of mentioned 9mm factory ammunition falls within the following parameters (according to a little research). I should note that this research will also turn up varying pressures of these loads, so using your head is probably the best advice.

    NATO = 36,500
    +P = 38,500
    +P+ = 42,000


    The Glock 19 is reportedly rated to handle pressures in excess of 43,000 psi. Kahr warns against the use of +P+ loads in any of its handguns (per phone calls to them), though I have also carried and tested the Ranger 127gr +P+ load in my K9 Elite '03 and my Glock 19.

    It's a pretty safe bet to say that you are taking a chance of damaging your gun, and yourself, if you push the limits too far with some of the 9mm offerings out there. The worse case scenario would be if your gun self-destructed during its use in an extreme confrontation.

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    mel5051 wrote:
    Are there any currently made 9mm's that do not carry the warning 'not to be used with +P and +P+ ammunition' ?
    Isn't that just a .357 Sig? :P

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    Pat-inCO wrote:
    mel5051 wrote:
    Are there any currently made 9mm's that do not carry the warning 'not to be used with +P and +P+ ammunition' ?
    Isn't that just a .357 Sig? :P
    In IPSC and USPSA some Open class shooters shoot a 9mm Major. It's a 9x19 which is a 125gr bullet doing 1330pfs. Or essentially .357SIG velocities. This ammo is unsafe in normal 9mm pistols.

    Winchester Ranger 9mm 127gr +P+ makes Major power factor in my 5" M&P Pro. It did 1328fps when I chrono'd it last year.
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    Virginian683 wrote:
    (snip)
    By the way, the sole reason a few ammo makers produce +P+ is because some police depts like the warm fuzzy feeling from having something more "powerful" than "civilians" can carry so they make a +P+ load and sell it just to LEOs. (Accordingly, some "civilians" like the warm fuzzy feeling of having something sold only to LEOs :quirky).

    +P+ is nothing but a marketing ploy combined with increased and unnecessary recoil. A standard pressure 9mm will penetrate 2 car doors and keep on going. Anybody who needs more power than this....try .50 BMG.
    I agree whole heartedly. If you are looking for that much more recoil, buy a bigger gun.

    If you really want to make sure you will be ok in a bad situation, compare several hollowpoints in a similar media.

    I strongly suggest Hornady Critical Defense. In 38 spl and 9mm I have yet to find a media that it will not expand in ever single shot. My primary concern with any HP is that it expand and create the maximum damage when needed.

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    i use cor-bon 115gr +p and ranger-t +p 124gr in my hk p2000 and have had no issues other then snappier recoil. i have on a regular basis shot 124 gr +p gold-dots through the pistol and have no issues...i have not shot +p+ through the pistol as i feel that isnot for me. My glock 17 had a steady diet of 115gr +p cor-bons through it as well. again between the two pistols prob about 400 rds of +p and no problems...i agree that if you need +p+ then get a .357 sig or a good ole 38 super...anyways my 2 cents....

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    Regular Member mel5051's Avatar
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    Actually after logging in to the Walther Forum and StoppingPower.net I now also carry Cor-Bon DPX and the +P Ranger T's.

    I gave the Ranger +P+'s to my son.

    I also installed the DPM Recoil Spring System in my Walther P99 AS 9mm to lessen the wear on the slide and internal parts.

    Mel


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    I don't know about +P+, but I really don't feel much recoil difference between standard and +P ammo in my 9mm. You have to really "look" for it. The only way I can tell is that it changes the rhythm of fire - reinforcing for me that you should should ammo that acts like what you carry.

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    I...yeeeah, ihhh...

    As a former engineer, the difference between perfectly safe pressures and recoils and extremely dangerous (i.e. catastrophic) pressures and recoils is minimal, and you can often have catastrophic failures with less recoil than you can have perfectly safe departures.

    Adhere to your firearms' manufacturer's instructions! If it doesn't say it's ok for +P or +P+, please, for your sake and that of your eyesight, fingers, etc, do NOT use it.

    You may very well get away with it for a few hundred or even a thousand times! However, failure modes are usually measured in 100,000 life cycles, and that's not with a 100% success rate (more like 90 to95 %)

    Therefore, you can easily exceed 100k rounds using normal 9mm ammo, while you may never discover your non +P or +P+ rated weapon really wasn't designed to handle those pressures until your 23,463rd when you chose to loose an eye and two fingers.

    If you want to shoot +P or +P+ ammo, buy a weapon specifically rated for it.

    This isn't like overclocking motherboards, people. Grab a clue. Please
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    I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out of my CZ 85 B is +P rated or not. The manual says nothing about it, but several websites listing it claim it is, and one claims it's +P+.

    I'm certainly not going to find out the hard way!

    For all the hype, I'm unconvinced +P or +P+ is worth it. I've shot both, and handling the weapon for rapid fire (double-tap) with any accuracy becomes noticeably more difficult. For all the pressure, I've not seen subtantially greater ballistics. I suppose if you know you'll only get one shot, it might be worth it to make that shot count. But I'd rather have better control.

    As for plinkin', it's expensive, and causes considerably more wear per round. At most, though, I'll go through about a thousand rounds a year for target practice.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    I would have to say that the Isreali Baby Eagles should be able to handle it considering the all steel heavy duty design. I'd look to those types. Felt recoil should be reduced when compared to lighter guns. ditto on EAA Witness steel frames.

    After years of using Federal Hydra Shok 230gr in my small 1911s I have dropped to there low recoil offerings because it's more important to get back to the target and follow up more accurately than to try to hit em with the "hay maker" the first time.

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