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Thread: Private property non-cpl concealed carry

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    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?

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    No, that's not correct. See...

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.227 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986
    Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court's ability to impose punishment in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature's power to define crime and fix punishment. People v Sturgis, 427 Mich 392; 397 NW2d 783 (1986).

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    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    If your friend is 18 years of age or older he or she can OC the pistol, as long as, the pistol is registered to him or her.

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    Just a question in general.
    I thought I could grant cc'ing as the property owner.

    Also I since I am not a cpl holder I do not have to disclose to LEO I am armed?

    Correct?

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    UCWT wrote:
    Just a question in general.
    I thought I could grant cc'ing as the property owner.

    Also I since I am not a cpl holder I do not have to disclose to LEO I am armed?

    Correct?
    The disclosure requirement (MCL 28.425f) applies to those who are licensed under the Act (CPL). I know of no statue in Michigan that requires you to disclose if you're CC on your own property, etc. See 750.227 above.

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    UCWT wrote:
    Just a question in general.
    I thought I could grant cc'ing as the property owner.

    Also I since I am not a cpl holder I do not have to disclose to LEO I am armed?

    Correct?
    If you're on your own property CCing without a CPL, I don't believe you would have to disclose to an officer because that's a stipulation of the CPL, which you are not using. While OCing, CPL or not, you do not have to disclose to an officer because that, like I just said, is a stipulation of the CPL, which you're not using.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    technically I think it has to be your own place of residence only...

    but

    A: He can open carry as long as you give him permission

    B: ...if he is concealing at your house are you going to call the police on him?

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    technically I think it has to be your own place of residence only...

    but

    A: He can open carry as long as you give him permission

    B: ...if he is concealing at your house are you going to call the police on him?
    What has to be at your own residence?

    A: isn't it he can oc unless I contest it.

    B: not unless I feel threatened and that would be a "come finish this call" just trying to keep from making a big mistake by feeling this out. I thought that I could grant him to cc on my property.

    Can't say I know anyone that would have a problem with oc'ing at said bbq but if people that the ol'lady works with were attending I might keep it low key and cc so as not to sway how they view her.

    It was the best example I could think of to deliver my question.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    yeah sorry I wasn't more clear about my statement...



    I mean you can only CC on your property. If you give someone else permission, its likely the police won't be called, but if by some random chance your friend was caught ccing on your property without a CPL, even with your permission, it would be against the law [the actual wording of the law is posted above,

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.227 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986
    Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court's ability to impose punishment in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature's power to define crime and fix punishment. People v Sturgis, 427 Mich 392; 397 NW2d 783 (1986).

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    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    Yes period.

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    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    Yes period.
    Would you care to elaborate? I would like to hear it.

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    UCWT wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    Yes period.
    Would you care to elaborate? I would like to hear it.
    First off bottom line is that the police would have to have a very good reason to come onto your property, then to approach you, then ask if your company is carrying concealed.

    Now Private property over rides all law gun laws on possession. It does not clarify OC or CC it just says Possession. there for if there is no law saying Private property over ride all laws on possession except CC, it is left to interpretation. Same as OC there is no MCL permitting you OC there for it is legal because there is no law against.

    It has been debated that cocaine, pot, etc. cannot be used on private property, so cc w/o a permit cannot, but cocaine is an Illegal substance, yet I can drive a car on my property while drinking, and I can operate a motorcycle or snowmobile w/o a helmet. All these laws as well as Gun laws on possession are to regulate use and carry in public. Now we just had a meet where the owner of a bar/bowling alley allowed us to OC in the place w/o a CPL, if he can let us OC with out a cpl, which there is a law saying you must have a CPL to OC in a bar etc. Then I cannot see where you allowing a person w/o a CPL to CC is illegal on Private property.

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    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    Yes period.
    Would you care to elaborate? I would like to hear it.
    First off bottom line is that the police would have to have a very good reason to come onto your property, then to approach you, then ask if your company is carrying concealed.*

    Now Private property over rides all law gun laws on possession. It does not clarify OC or CC it just says Possession. there for if there is no law saying Private property over ride all laws on possession except CC, it is left to interpretation. Same as OC there is no MCL permitting you OC there for it is legal because there is no law against.

    It has been debated that cocaine, pot, etc. cannot be used on private property, so cc w/o a permit cannot, but cocaine is an Illegal substance, yet I can drive a car on my property while drinking, and I can operate a motorcycle or snowmobile w/o a helmet. All these laws as well as Gun laws on possession are to regulate use and carry in public. Now we just had a meet where the owner of a bar/bowling alley allowed us to OC in the place w/o a CPL, if he can let us OC with out a cpl, which there is a law saying you must have a CPL to OC in a bar etc. Then I cannot see where you allowing a person w/o a CPL to CC is illegal on Private property.

    "Then I cannot see where you allowing a person w/o a CPL to CC is illegal on Private property."

    I believe this is incorrect. The owner of a private property can give someone who can legally OC permission to OC on their property (namely the bar). The bar owner cannot give someone permission to CC in the same bar because you must have a CC permit in order to CC unless you're on your own property or business.

    The only place that I'm aware of that someone can CC without a permit is their home or their own business only. I'm not aware of any other situations in where someone could legally CC besides what I stated above.

    I do agree with property rights that a person holds but you also cannot "give permission" for people to break the law which would be anyone CC'ing outside of their own home or their own business.

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    I agree with everything you say above Mike, except, in an establishment that serves, or sells Alcohol you must by law have a CPL to OC, but the law allows the owner to allow the Non CPL person to OC w/0, now the law does explicitly say an Owner/agent that is controlled by the Comission , but I feel the reason the law states it in print is because there are stipulations in an Alcohol establishment, where there is no stipulation on non alcohol Private property. I cannot articulate and type fast enough to get my point across, all I know is there is no law that says I cannot grant permission, same as there is no law that says I cannot OC

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    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    Yes period.
    Would you care to elaborate? I would like to hear it.
    First off bottom line is that the police would have to have a very good reason to come onto your property, then to approach you, then ask if your company is carrying concealed.*

    Now Private property over rides all law gun laws on possession. It does not clarify OC or CC it just says Possession. there for if there is no law saying Private property over ride all laws on possession except CC, it is left to interpretation. Same as OC there is no MCL permitting you OC there for it is legal because there is no law against.

    It has been debated that cocaine, pot, etc. cannot be used on private property, so cc w/o a permit cannot, but cocaine is an Illegal substance, yet I can drive a car on my property while drinking, and I can operate a motorcycle or snowmobile w/o a helmet. All these laws as well as Gun laws on possession are to regulate use and carry in public. Now we just had a meet where the owner of a bar/bowling alley allowed us to OC in the place w/o a CPL, if he can let us OC with out a cpl, which there is a law saying you must have a CPL to OC in a bar etc. Then I cannot see where you allowing a person w/o a CPL to CC is illegal on Private property.
    Me and the ol'lady were just talking about this. I feel the same way. After MCL was posted I was reading it and thought that it holds no weight on private property also but haven't searched it.

    The bbq question was a to set up another question about owner/agent of a business asking non-cpl to cover up.

    If this is the case. If you make them clarify that they as the owner/agent have given you permission to CC.

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    UCWT wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    First off non-cpl is the base for this question and sorry if this was covered but trying to understand this better.

    So on my property I can carry concealed.
    If a non-cpl buddy comes over for a bbq I as the owner/agent of the property I can grant him the ability to conceal on my property.
    Correct?
    Yes period.
    Would you care to elaborate? I would like to hear it.
    First off bottom line is that the police would have to have a very good reason to come onto your property, then to approach you, then ask if your company is carrying concealed.

    Now Private property over rides all law gun laws on possession. It does not clarify OC or CC it just says Possession. there for if there is no law saying Private property over ride all laws on possession except CC, it is left to interpretation. Same as OC there is no MCL permitting you OC there for it is legal because there is no law against.

    It has been debated that cocaine, pot, etc. cannot be used on private property, so cc w/o a permit cannot, but cocaine is an Illegal substance, yet I can drive a car on my property while drinking, and I can operate a motorcycle or snowmobile w/o a helmet. All these laws as well as Gun laws on possession are to regulate use and carry in public. Now we just had a meet where the owner of a bar/bowling alley allowed us to OC in the place w/o a CPL, if he can let us OC with out a cpl, which there is a law saying you must have a CPL to OC in a bar etc. Then I cannot see where you allowing a person w/o a CPL to CC is illegal on Private property.
    Me and the ol'lady were just talking about this. I feel the same way. After MCL was posted I was reading it and thought that it holds no weight on private property also but haven't searched it.

    The bbq question was a to set up another question about owner/agent of a business asking non-cpl to cover up.

    If this is the case. If you make them clarify that they as the owner/agent have given you permission to CC.
    Outstanding Private! That is a valid point very valid, he is giving permission!

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    conservative85 wrote:
    I agree with everything you say above Mike, except, in an establishment that serves, or sells Alcohol you must by law have a CPL to OC, but the law allows the owner to allow the Non CPL person to OC w/0, now the law does explicitly say an Owner/agent that is controlled by the Comission , but I feel the reason the law states it in print is because there are stipulations in an Alcohol establishment, where there is no stipulation on non alcohol Private property. I cannot articulate and type fast enough to get my point across, all I know is there is no law that says I cannot grant permission, same as there is no law that says I cannot OC
    I think I understand what your saying but this is always a great topic because it's trying to put a few laws together and trying to understand how private property rights fit in.

    I agree there is no law that says you cannot grant permissions but there is also no law that says you can. Where there are laws stating specific where people cannot CC. In this circumstance I feel since there is no law that says you are allowed to exempt someone from a law stating where people can CC then I believe it would be illegal.

    I'm not a lawyer just trying to apply common sense to laws that are vague and misleading.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    conservative85 wrote:
    I agree with everything you say above Mike, except, in an establishment that serves, or sells Alcohol you must by law have a CPL to OC, but the law allows the owner to allow the Non CPL person to OC w/0, now the law does explicitly say an Owner/agent that is controlled by the Comission , but I feel the reason the law states it in print is because there are stipulations in an Alcohol establishment, where there is no stipulation on non alcohol Private property. I cannot articulate and type fast enough to get my point across, all I know is there is no law that says I cannot grant permission, same as there is no law that says I cannot OC
    I think I understand what your saying but this is always a great topic because it's trying to put a few laws together and trying to understand how private property rights fit in.

    I agree there is no law that says you cannot grant permissions but there is also no law that says you can. Where there are laws stating specific where people cannot CC. In this circumstance I feel since there is no law that says you are allowed to exempt someone from a law stating where people can CC then I believe it would be illegal.

    I'm not a lawyer just trying to apply common sense to laws that are vague and misleading.
    That is why I want to keep this debate alive as long as possible. I want all of us to give their two cents and hopefully we can get some direction maybe from a lawyer on this site, or if I ever get a friggin reply from the States Attorney General.

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    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    As I see it we're tangling the issue up a bit here.

    Private property rights trump all. Except when that private property is specifically regulated for another reason or when the activity(s) or item(s) in question are completely illegal, such as cocaine or home-made nuclear reactors.

    I would say it's perfectly legal to CC with permission on someone's private property IF that property is not specifically regulated. (By specifically regulated I mean it has a set of laws aimed at it due to it's use or business, such as alcohol sales.)

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    TheSzerdi wrote:
    As I see it we're tangling the issue up a bit here.

    Private property rights trump all. Except when that private property is specifically regulated for another reason or when the activity(s) or item(s) in question are completely illegal, such as cocaine or home-made nuclear reactors.

    I would say it's perfectly legal to CC with permission on someone's private property IF that property is not specifically regulated. (By specifically regulated I mean it has a set of laws aimed at it due to it's use or business, such as alcohol sales.)
    Great Articulation! Thank you! Szerdi

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    TheSzerdi wrote:
    As I see it we're tangling the issue up a bit here.

    Private property rights trump all. Except when that private property is specifically regulated for another reason or when the activity(s) or item(s) in question are completely illegal, such as cocaine or home-made nuclear reactors.

    I would say it's perfectly legal to CC with permission on someone's private property IF that property is not specifically regulated. (By specifically regulated I mean it has a set of laws aimed at it due to it's use or business, such as alcohol sales.)
    From the little I know I feel the same but wanted to bounce this off the better informed fine people of this forum!

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    UCWT wrote:
    TheSzerdi wrote:
    As I see it we're tangling the issue up a bit here.

    Private property rights trump all. Except when that private property is specifically regulated for another reason or when the activity(s) or item(s) in question are completely illegal, such as cocaine or home-made nuclear reactors.

    I would say it's perfectly legal to CC with permission on someone's private property IF that property is not specifically regulated. (By specifically regulated I mean it has a set of laws aimed at it due to it's use or business, such as alcohol sales.)
    From the little I know I feel the same but wanted to bounce this off the better informed fine people of this forum!
    Well even tho we are on the same team, never take any ones word for anything! Look it up, research it, and find out for your self. There could always be that chance we could be wrong, or misspeak.

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    conservative85 wrote:
    UCWT wrote:
    TheSzerdi wrote:
    As I see it we're tangling the issue up a bit here.

    Private property rights trump all. Except when that private property is specifically regulated for another reason or when the activity(s) or item(s) in question are completely illegal, such as cocaine or home-made nuclear reactors.

    I would say it's perfectly legal to CC with permission on someone's private property IF that property is not specifically regulated. (By specifically regulated I mean it has a set of laws aimed at it due to it's use or business, such as alcohol sales.)
    From the little I know I feel the same but wanted to bounce this off the better informed fine people of this forum!
    Well even tho we are on the same team, never take any ones word for anything! Look it up, research it, and find out for your self. There could always be that chance we could be wrong, or misspeak.
    Agreed! And I will. I look forward to your answer from the AG's office and any other findings. Thanks for the back and forth on it. Hope to gain more insight on this.

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    Just so ya don't waste your time. The AG does not respond to legal questions from the general public.

    Only LEO, and government officials can request clarification.

    So you would need to have your legislator ask for you.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Just so ya don't waste your time. The AG does not respond to legal questions from the general public.

    Only LEO, and government officials can request clarification.

    So you would need to have your legislator ask for you.
    Well with the way things are with our representatives I'll never get anywhere.


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