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Thread: Right to bear arms, why?

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    Hi, im a college student from England, my course is American studies, and i am writing a paper on, Does Americas gun culture show it to be in a state of crisis? Im arguing that IT IS NOT in a state of crisis and that firearm ownership is something that is perfectly normal and should not be misjudged by actions of a few.

    I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share their views as to why US citizens shoud be allowed to carry weapons or on any other part of the topic, that i could use in the paper.

    (any information taken would be refrenced however the author of said opinion decided)

    So if you could please help.

    Rob

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    Look to our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    and the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights that enumerates some of these unalienable Rights, including our Second Amendment.

    I go armed because I can and because it is a thumb in the eye of those that believe that men are subject to governments.

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    First off, thanks for responding, i have used the Declaration of Independence and was hoping for peoples individual opinion as to why they should have the right, beyond that it says so in the 2nd ammendment.

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    May i use your post in my paper?



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    Of course.

    "beyond that it says so in the 2nd ammendment." You may need to ask some fundamental questions to get beyond the Second Amendment. I'm not certain what is beyond it.

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    Thank you, would you possibley elaberate on your final point, also i assume you own at least one weapon for self-defense, but do you for any other purpose, ie hunting?

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    Are there rights inherent to men? Are there rights before there is government? Does government exist before rights, before men?

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    Thank you very much, and if anyone else wishes to comment, please do. The more opinions the stronger the argument becomes.



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    My apologies. I am having difficulties connecting to the site.

    I own four firearms, all 'defensive', none for hunting though my shotgun could be used for hunting.

    I do not believe in democracy as a good thing. the Founding Fathers of the United States spoke of democracy only in the negative, as a force to be feared. Democracy is the voice of ignorance and lack of leadership.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA ******* ******* the Obamination and its teeth.

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Why do I carry weapons?

    Thousands of Americans died in many wars so that I can enjoy the rights guaranteed by our founding fathers with the second amendment.

    The police are not responsible for my safety, I am.

    The police are not responsible for my family's safety, I am.

    The police are not responsible for the sanctity of my home, I am.

    If you have any questions on these statements, please let me know.


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    to Master Doug Huffman

    This is off topic somewhat, but if u disagree with Democracy, what are you in favour of? im not passing a judgement on your ideals, just quite interested.

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    If you want a great background on our Second Amendment you need to read this book.

    THE FOUNDERS’ SECOND AMENDMENT
    Origins of the Right to Bear Arms
    By Stephen P. Halbrook



    You can read the highlights here: http://www.independent.org/publications/books/book_summary.asp?bookID=72
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
    It's Semper Fidelis, MARINE!

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    to BigDaddy1, first off, thanks, secondly may i use this post?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    As long as you do not intend on using my words in a negative view you may use them.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Im arguing that most Americans that own guns do so for legal, logical reasons and personally i totally agree with your view.

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    Britstudent wrote:
    to Master Doug Huffman

    This is off topic somewhat, but if u disagree with Democracy, what are you in favour of? im not passing a judgement on your ideals, just quite interested.
    You capitalized "Democracy", why? What are the demos? Have you read any fundamental classical humanities?

    How many '-ocracies' can you write of knowledgeably? I am in favor of meritocracy and republicanism and limited democratic enfranchisement. We could discuss military enfranchisement.

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    There was nothing ment by the capital letter, coud you futher explain

    "I am in favor of meritocracy and republicanism and limited democratic enfranchisement."

    but in simple terms as i know little about politics. Sorry to seem awkward, but this is something that was never really covered in my compulsory education.

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    If anyone else wishes to put foreward an opinion please do, your thoughts are incredably usefull



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    So, youre a student writing a paper. Hmmm. I guess that you are not a troll, so it seems that coming to our forum to ask the questions you need was a very perceptive move. Nice, you should do well.

    Well, there are a few reasons for the right to both keep and to bear arms. we try first to learn the lessons from our history, and that of others, in that true freedom can only be had by those equipped to maintain it, or for those who are armed, so that if absolutely necessary, they can fight to get it back. God forbid. In the history of others, registration of guns has always led to the confiscation of those arms, and in many cases, genocide and/or dictatorships have been the result.

    We have a proud history in this country of being able to own and carry weapons for the protection of ourselves, others, and our families. We started from nothing, needing to hunt for food. We had to run from, and fight with a tyrranical government, and at the same time, we stole this country from native americans, which of course put us into the position of needing to protect ourselves from the natives. Yes, this was wrong, but it happened. Gun control began as a result of the americans wishing to oppress theblacks they enslaved, but that is another story.

    After having well established this nation, we had an established populous of armed citizens, this presented several advantages. First, it would be very difficult, even today, for anyones army (even our own), to invade and conquer this nation. Another advantage in this is that individuals and their families can protect themselves from animal attacks, including pack animals. we can also protect ourselves from animals of the human sort, who sometimes roam in packs as well. We can therefore to an extent, police ourselves untill the powers that be can be brought to bear.

    We can secure ourselves, both at home, and while we are about, from people, and wildlife that can do us harm. We do not have to rely on the police or anyone else for our safety, security, and in many cases our lives. There will always be criminals, they will always be armed. There is no way around it. If the guns were majically removed from any country, the criminals will either get them from another country, from the military and police (like in Mexico), or they will manufacture their own.

    Banning citizen ownership can only leave the law abiding citizen at a disadvantage against criminals, and at the same time it puts the citizen in grave peril from opressive governments, present and future, foreign, and domestic. An otherwise law abidingcitizen protecting themselves from an armed criminal under such laws is made into a criminal himself, and will be destroyed by the legal system which is designed to protect him.

    I carry a gun all day every day everywhere I go, even in my own home. When I am out and about, I do not fear an attack, be it from animal, or man. I am not arrogant, nor am I beligerant. I carry a gun because I realise that I am not invincible. I carry because I value my life, freedom and history. I carry because the people who dont are vulnerable, but no less valuable. I carry because it should be the criminals place to fear my neighborhood, I should not fear his. This is my country, there should be no bad areas in which I am afraid to go. I carry a gun because If someone tried to kidnap or harm my family, and all I could do is watch them helplessly, then I could not live with myself. It is my responsibility to my family, a duty to my country, and a commandment from God.

    Immediately before Jesus Christ was taken to be crucified, He gave His disciples a few instructions for them to follow until His return, among these, was a command that they should bear two swords. This command was such that He told them if they couldnt afford a weapon, they should sell even their clothes if necessary to get the money to buy one. A sword was the most deadly weapon of His day that could be carried, and it was not only unusual, but foolish to be without it. There is no doubt whatsoever that if Christ were to have lived among us in our time, the weapons mensioned in this passage would be firearms, the most deadly weapons carried in our day. See Luke 22:36-38.

    The right to keep (to own) and to bear (to carry) weapons is a pre existing God given right, that has been supported (not given) by our foundational documents.

    Did those who were killed in the holocaust have a right to live? Of course! Their government denied this pre-existing right to live. The same can be said for the right to keep and bear arms. The government can deny this right to someone, but they can not claim to be able to take it away because they gave it to them, as they certainly did not give it to them. The right was there already, the Bill of Rights only reaffirmed this right. And similarly it is written again here: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are" from the Declaration of Independence.

    "That among these" would indicate also, that even without the second amendment, these rights, among others,should be protected.

    Good luck to you sir.

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    Britstudent wrote:
    Hi, im a college student from England, my course is American studies, and i am writing a paper on, Does Americas gun culture show it to be in a state of crisis? Im arguing that IT IS NOT in a state of crisis and that firearm ownership is something that is perfectly normal and should not be misjudged by actions of a few.

    I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share their views as to why US citizens shoud be allowed to carry weapons or on any other part of the topic, that i could use in the paper.

    (any information taken would be refrenced however the author of said opinion decided)

    So if you could please help.

    Rob
    Rob,

    I'd like to take a shot (pun intended) at your question. First, US citizens are not allowed to carry weapons. We have a right to carry weapons that predates the existence of our government. Our constitution is a list that contains the things that we (as citizens) allow our federal government to do, and more importantly, the restictions that the individual states and citizens place on the government.

    Unfortunately, the government has overstepped the authority that it was given, and for the most part is the cause of any crisis that we may be having at this particular time. The founding fathers anticipated this, and one of the purposes of the second amendment is to make sure that we can retake control from a runaway government should the need arise.

    A democracy is basically mob rule. We are a republic, where even the minority is represented.

    There is and always has been a delicate balance between the individual states and the central government. This came to the surface in our "war between the states" which is now generally though of in thems of slavery. Since the winners get to write history, that is how this conflict is remembered by most. If you dig a little deeper, you find that the root of the issue was more about power relating to the states vs. the federal government.

    As citizens, we tend to get distracted and lazy, and allow our governments to get bigger than they need to be. So our current crisis is not so much about the right to bear arms, but is more about our local, state, and national governments getting bigger than intended. This causes them to spend money that they do not have. Why work when the government will take care of all of your needs?

    Our voting process is the first method of keeping our governments under control. Unfortunately,with the "bread and circuses" approach, the government is buyingvotes at the expense of our children and grandchildren. The 1st amendment allowing free speach among other things is the second line of defense. The 2nd amendment provides a last-resort option.

    Part of what you seen in the news is the result of our governments attempting to infringe on the right to bear arms. The vast majority of the mass shootings that you hear about are happening in "gun free zones" - places where the government has violated the rights of the citizens and banned firearms. Naturally, the criminals do not care about laws that or constitutionally legal or not, so in these cases they have the guns and the victims have been disarmed.

    Rather than having citizen representatives as was intended, our governments are now populated with career politicians who only want to remain in office.

    Once the majority of the citizens get tired of the excesses of these politicians, we will change things.Due to the number of viewpoints, I don't see things ever being calm. I expect us toalways besomewhere between a simmer and a rolling boil.

    It is getting late, I'm tired, and I'm just writing what comes into my head.

    Danny

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    I first look into the history of our two nations for the understanding of why the founding fathers placed the 2A into the Constitution.

    The right of self defense is a God given right that can not be taken away from an individual. King George III of England had with drawn his protection form the colonies and even hired the First Nations to kill and rape his own citizens. The first thing a tyrannical government takes away is the power of its own citizenry to defend themselves. Read "Lives of the signers of the Declaration of Independence." first published in 1848.


    The Bill of Rights was placed into the Constitution because our founding fathers knew what is was like to live under a tyrannical King and knew how a government does like to control. Our Constitution was based on the fact that "we the people" could govern ourselves with the teachings of the Bible. They saw how a government could and does take rights given by God away. They wanted to assure the God given rights of the individuals.

    A gun is only a tool. Just because a society has guns does not mean the society is in crisis. It is the crimes that are committed. Mankind has been committing crimes on each other since Cain killed Able, and all without guns. England has strict control over firearms and yet it still has crime. A criminal will commit a crime weather he uses a gun or not. What a gun does is make a weaker person better able to defend ones self against a stronger attack. The gun is the great equalizer. A society that recognises an individuals right to self defense puts the criminal elements of society in a more hazardous profession.


    No, our culture (including England's) is not in crisis because of guns it is in crisis because we have leftthe morality of God's Word,the Bible and the principles of the Ten Commandments. "And every man did that which was right in his own eyes" the Book of Judges.
    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    As you might well imagine, there is no end to literature of all kinds written about "Guns in America". It's a topic that no matter what your view, must be acknowledged to flow through our veins.

    While I do not claim to speak for anyone other than myself, I would speculate that most folks who are regularly contributing members to this and other similar forums strongly hold to the belief that the right to keep and bear arms (RKBA) is derived from the basic and simple human right of survival. As such, I don't think we accept any premise that holds the idea that our RKBA is "granted" or even guaranteed by any form of government, but rather the Second Amendment simply acknowledges for all to see and to be made aware of the fact that this right exists, and that the government will not infringe upon it.

    At the time of the writing of the entire Bill of Rights, there was turmoil in the land. Some of the rights were included to specifically address grievances against the then-occupying forces, such as housing soldiers in homes. The Second Amendment was also party included to provide a permanent protection against occupying forces, both foreign and domestic. So it had a practical application as well.

    Over the past 230 years, many citizens have become complacent, and even dependent upon the government. They view the founding of our country as ancient history, with those lessons and foundations having no place in society today.

    Where they err is that even though time has passed, those foundations are just as important today as they ever were. Bankrupt world views also contribute to the anti-gun mentality, manifest in the idea that there can exist a world without evil, if we can (or would) only reform, educate, or rehabilitate the criminal element. This is foolish thinking, and denies human nature. It will get you killed.

    Finally, I believe much of the anti-gun mentality would eventually like to see an American society completely free of guns. I believe this is a great example that shows most folks who embrace this sort of thinking tend to see the world as it "could be" or maybe "should be" rather than in realistic terms of how it is. There is no possibility that the United States could be swept completely free of guns. And, even in some imaginary world where it might happen, the criminal element would just quickly adapt to other tools of violence and crime, which is what they have already done in your country, as demonstrated by the explosion of knife crime. After knives are outlawed, they will move to clubs. Tools are not the problem, whether the tool is a gun, or a knife or a club.

    TFred


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    Brit there are many various reasons why we carry guns. The second ammendment is actually, after much decline, has been reawakened in many U.S. citizens due to fear of a tyranical government. And not just "liberals" or "democrat" the conservative party has also compromised and sold away our rights. Technically they cannot be taken away, but they are trying.

    Remember the founding fathers were dealing as colonist against tyranny and that is the main reason they wrote the 2A. They kept it short and to the point on purpose so that it covers being able to hold government at bay, self defense, defense of your family and friends and any other reason that you would lawfully need a firearm or just arms.

    Despite news stories crime is down in the U.S. many feel this might be due to the large increase of firearms being owned, sold and bought here.

    Why I carry? Because I can!!!! It is my right and so it is the right of every human to be armed. Myself and many here believe in actively normalizing guns back into society. Yanks have always loved firearms and many households quietly keep guns at home and many Conceal carry weapons everywhere they go.

    I carry mine in the open, it appears to be a great deterant to crime and criminals. It makes a statement about me and what I believe. And it is much easier to use in the unfortunate event that I would need to. I would rather have my weapon working for me instead of fumbling inside my clothes to try and retrieve in a situation were so much can go wrong.

    People who say it brings negative attention to guns and myself are just misinformed. I find that the majority of U.S. and Canadians since I am close to the border, love it and are glad someone appreciates the 2A.




    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    All of you, thanks a lot for the input.



    I'd be interested to see what you all, as actual americans (as opposed to my lecturer) thought of my work, would anybody be interested in reading it when finished and giving an opinion?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Britstudent wrote:
    Both of, thanks a lot for the input.



    I'd be interested to see what you all, as actual americans (as opposed to my lecturer) thought of my work, would anybody be interested in reading it when finished and giving an opinion?
    Yea either PM it or post it hear, would love to read it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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