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Thread: Condition 1 vs Chambered and Down

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I've heard a lot of hoopla about "Condition 1." Sure, my gun supports that. A simple draw and flick of the safety and I'm off and running!

    However, I much prefer chambering a round, then going through the dicey process (for my weapon) of manually lowering the hammer on a chambered round. It helps that my weapon has a trigger block, so as long as I don't slip, if I let off the trigger just before the hammer reaches home, the trigger block ensures it won't fire.

    But it is a touch risky (my weapon does not have a decocker).

    Because it's risky, I always perform this while the muzzle is buried in a a full basket of laundry! It might ruin some clothes, but that's a small price to pay for a silenced and protected "ooops..."

    Back to the issue:

    I grew up with revolvers. Fully loaded, one pull, one fire. Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM!

    I have the option of setting up my weapon, so I choose the same option: Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM! Only it's a 16-shot semi-auto, with one in the chamber, so I've 17 shots total before I need to reload, and the slide lock helps me with this by saying, "you're out, stupid."

    To me, this makes perfect sense. In a firefight, the instinct is to draw, point, and pull the trigger. I've never been in any actual firefights, but I've simulated a dozen of them on various training ranges. Still, despite 20 years in the military I have a tenth the training of your average cop.

    No matter how many times I think about it, I can't wrap my head around the idea of "Condition 1," with one possible excepton: Let's say I'm involved in a firefighter, or I'm at the range and the rangemaster calls "cease fire!" I hit the safety and I'm in Condition 1.

    And I do practice this mode of operation simply because it might happen that I need to do safe my weapon but would never want to go through the laborious and defenseless task of dropping the clip, racking the round, and reinserting the slide... At least until it's safe to do so, of course.

    So again: Please explain to me this preoccupation with day-to-day carry in a "Condition 1" configuration. Just doesn't make sense to me.

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    First off, don't take my post as hostile or argumentative.

    I don't quite understand what you do not understand about Condition 1 carrying.

    Condition 1, for semi-automatic handguns, merely states that the gun has a round chambered, fully loaded magazine inserted, and the safety is on. Remove the safety and you're ready to fire.

    It is a matter of carry-preference and some people make their own calculated decisions on how to carry based on different safety factors and scenarios involving the gun (accidental discharges of various types, gun taken by surprise, etc, etc).

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    tekshogun wrote:
    First off, don't take my post as hostile or argumentative.

    I don't quite understand what you do not understand about Condition 1 carrying.

    Condition 1, for semi-automatic handguns, merely states that the gun has a round chambered, fully loaded magazine inserted, and the safety is on. Remove the safety and you're ready to fire.

    It is a matter of carry-preference and some people make their own calculated decisions on how to carry based on different safety factors and scenarios involving the gun (accidental discharges of various types, gun taken by surprise, etc, etc).
    You missed one. Condition One also means that the hammer is fully cocked.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    since9 wrote:
    I've heard a lot of hoopla about "Condition 1." Sure, my gun supports that. A simple draw and flick of the safety and I'm off and running!

    However, I much prefer chambering a round, then going through the dicey process (for my weapon) of manually lowering the hammer on a chambered round. It helps that my weapon has a trigger block, so as long as I don't slip, if I let off the trigger just before the hammer reaches home, the trigger block ensures it won't fire.

    But it is a touch risky (my weapon does not have a decocker).

    Because it's risky, I always perform this while the muzzle is buried in a a full basket of laundry! It might ruin some clothes, but that's a small price to pay for a silenced and protected "ooops..."

    Back to the issue:

    I grew up with revolvers. Fully loaded, one pull, one fire. Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM!

    I have the option of setting up my weapon, so I choose the same option: Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM! Only it's a 16-shot semi-auto, with one in the chamber, so I've 17 shots total before I need to reload, and the slide lock helps me with this by saying, "you're out, stupid."

    To me, this makes perfect sense. In a firefight, the instinct is to draw, point, and pull the trigger. I've never been in any actual firefights, but I've simulated a dozen of them on various training ranges. Still, despite 20 years in the military I have a tenth the training of your average cop.

    No matter how many times I think about it, I can't wrap my head around the idea of "Condition 1," with one possible excepton: Let's say I'm involved in a firefighter, or I'm at the range and the rangemaster calls "cease fire!" I hit the safety and I'm in Condition 1.

    And I do practice this mode of operation simply because it might happen that I need to do safe my weapon but would never want to go through the laborious and defenseless task of dropping the clip, racking the round, and reinserting the slide... At least until it's safe to do so, of course.

    So again: Please explain to me this preoccupation with day-to-day carry in a "Condition 1" configuration. Just doesn't make sense to me.
    It sounds to me that what your seem to prefer, what you would be most comfortable with, is a DAO (Double Action Only) pistol of the Kahr design. The Kahr pistol's trigger has a very smooth and consisten 3/8" travel to letoff and could feel to you very similar to a fine double action revolver. This gun has no external safeties to get in the way and is inherently safe to carry in full battery because of its DAO design. It is a pull, point, and shoot gun. Their all steel pistols are their best in terms of feel and reliability.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    tekshogun wrote:
    First off, don't take my post as hostile or argumentative.

    I don't quite understand what you do not understand about Condition 1 carrying.

    Condition 1, for semi-automatic handguns, merely states that the gun has a round chambered, fully loaded magazine inserted, and the safety is on. Remove the safety and you're ready to fire.

    It is a matter of carry-preference and some people make their own calculated decisions on how to carry based on different safety factors and scenarios involving the gun (accidental discharges of various types, gun taken by surprise, etc, etc).
    You missed one. Condition One also means that the hammer is fully cocked.
    Yes and that is an important distinction.

    The Model 1911 and its clones are DESIGNED to be carried with a round chambered, the hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. That carry method was developed BEFORE the grip safety, the trigger interlock safety and the firing pin lock, and it worked very well for many years, thank you very much.

    While the "De-cocking" maneuver described by the OP may be a ticklish process, in part that is why Condition 1 carry is preferred for 1911 style weapons. Nobody wants to take the time in a defensive situation to rack a slide, obtain a proper grip and then belatedly line up on the target. Nor do most people want to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. So the safest method is to load the weapon, chamber a round, and lock the firing mechanism.

    This mode of carry is not everyones cup of tea. But the fact is that MANY revolvers are carried in a variation of condition 1 all the time. Why a variation? Because they do not have a mechanism to lock the action (safety). All they have is a heavier trigger pull. It is possible to cause a discharge on some older revolvers by dropping the loaded weapon on the hammer spur. Same for first generation 1911's if they are carried hammer down on a loaded chamber. But both of these events are so rare that documenting an actual occurrence is nearly impossible.

    So the deal is that all of this is a trade off within your personal comfort zone. You have to learn and practice the most reasonable and safest carry method for your particular weapon.
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    since9 wrote:
    I've heard a lot of hoopla about "Condition 1." Sure, my gun supports that. A simple draw and flick of the safety and I'm off and running!

    However, I much prefer chambering a round, then going through the dicey process (for my weapon) of manually lowering the hammer on a chambered round. It helps that my weapon has a trigger block, so as long as I don't slip, if I let off the trigger just before the hammer reaches home, the trigger block ensures it won't fire.

    But it is a touch risky (my weapon does not have a decocker).

    Because it's risky, I always perform this while the muzzle is buried in a a full basket of laundry! It might ruin some clothes, but that's a small price to pay for a silenced and protected "ooops..."

    Back to the issue:

    I grew up with revolvers. Fully loaded, one pull, one fire. Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM!

    I have the option of setting up my weapon, so I choose the same option: Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM! Only it's a 16-shot semi-auto, with one in the chamber, so I've 17 shots total before I need to reload, and the slide lock helps me with this by saying, "you're out, stupid."

    To me, this makes perfect sense. In a firefight, the instinct is to draw, point, and pull the trigger. I've never been in any actual firefights, but I've simulated a dozen of them on various training ranges. Still, despite 20 years in the military I have a tenth the training of your average cop.

    No matter how many times I think about it, I can't wrap my head around the idea of "Condition 1," with one possible excepton: Let's say I'm involved in a firefighter, or I'm at the range and the rangemaster calls "cease fire!" I hit the safety and I'm in Condition 1.

    And I do practice this mode of operation simply because it might happen that I need to do safe my weapon but would never want to go through the laborious and defenseless task of dropping the clip, racking the round, and reinserting the slide... At least until it's safe to do so, of course.

    So again: Please explain to me this preoccupation with day-to-day carry in a "Condition 1" configuration. Just doesn't make sense to me.
    Condition 1 is used by and advocated by lots of 1911 carriers and users.

    Condition 3 is used by and advocated by lots of 1911 carriers and users.

    Condition 1 advocates always drown out the Condition3 advocates on gun forums.

    But each person has to decide for himself or herself. Do some research. It's a commonly discussed topic. There are always threads about this on gun forums, including here on OCDO.

    There's a fellow here with the screen name of CondtionThree. He knows a lot about guns and is a gun guy. Check with him, maybe.

    One thing I'm pretty sure ofabout the ever-continuing Condition 1 vs. Condition 3 battle:

    People who should carry Condition 1 probably shouldn't carry in Condition 3, and

    People who should carry Condition 3 probably shouldn't carry in Condition 1.



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    Thanks for the correction guys.

    Having to cock your gun as you bring it to bear is not very appealing to me (Con-2). I guess some people don't like to do it because they believe their safety will fail.

    The fact is that most guns are designed to be mechanically sound. And you must trust, to a degree, that it will operate properly. Con-1, if you don't mind taking the safety off as a step, go for it. If I had that option, I would consider it. My Glock is a different scenario since I know it takes a deliberate pull of the trigger to disengage the triggers and fire. Some call it dangerous, I call it just about perfect and it forces me to be a responsible handler (as responsible as possible).

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    A 1911 (modern) has more safety functions than virtually most other handguns and is, as others have said, designed to carry in condition1.

    Even with the manual safety off - on fire - a 1911 has redundant safeties that prevent its accidental discharge.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    A 1911 (modern) has more safety functions than virtually most other handguns and is, as others have said, designed to carry in condition1.

    Even with the manual safety off - on fire - a 1911 has redundant safeties that prevent its accidental discharge.

    ******* Yata hey
    While Grapeshot is correct, it should always be remembered that you should NEVER depend on the mechanics of the weapon. When people start depending on the design of their weapons to somehow automatically protect them from misadventure they begin to ignore safe handling rules. In part this is why I object to Glock advertising their weapons as "Safe Actions". Glocks are no better or worse than any other weapons but this terminology leads people away from responsible handling practices as they believe the weapons will somehow magically do this for them.

    There is a reason why we all keep reading about people shooting themselves in the leg and foot when re-holstering and it is not a weapons design flaw. KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD! We see this kind of injury a lot on revolvers, and newer DAO weapons. Why? Because people are being taught that these DAO weapons are inherently safe, as time goes by they stop worrying about where their fingers are. After all the weapons is designed to only fire WITH A POSITIVE, INTENTIONAL PULL OF THE TRIGGER. So people believe that so long as they don't INTENT to fire the weapon it will not fire.

    There have been hundreds of documented incidents of people replacing their Glock in the factory box and accidentally discharging the weapon. A lot of them lost a fingertip in the process. Why? Because the original factory boxes required the trigger to be pulled so a post moulded in the box would go into the trigger guard in front of the trigger. I presume Glock designed the box this way to assure that the weapon would be uncocked when being stored.

    In any case people ASSUMED their weapons were unloaded, went to put them in the box and BANG. Usually they had their index finger in the muzzle to assist in holding the weapon and getting it lined up over the peg. Most of those people are not playing the piano these days. But the fact is they did not have a full deck in the poker game of life in the first place. ALL weapons are only as safe as the person handling them.

    There has NEVER been a mechanical device made by man that has not failed at some point. EVER! So why would you EVER put total trust in a man made device where lives are at stake without a fall back plan? That is why most weapons today have redundant safeties, but that is not really the answer because they are all mechanical. In this case the actual fall back is the person handling the machine and how seriously that person adheres to the safety rules.

    I carry a Para ordinance P12.45 every day. It is based on a series '90 1911 design with some differences. But it has a grip safety, a trigger disconnect, a firing pin block and a manual slide lock safety. While nice all of those are irrelevant to me. I treat it like it was an original 1911 .45 auto without ANY of these devices. If I screw up some day while handling this weapon, maybe one of those devices MIGHT prevent a serious incident, but I never depend on that and neither should you.

    There is not now, nor has there ever been such a thing as an "Accidental Discharge". All unintended discharges of a firearm are "Negligent Discharges" by definition, because someone had to neglect a safety rule or some other handling principal before the weapon could be fired unintentionally. That is not an "accident" that is negligence.

    The choice of a carry weapon is a very personal one. NOBODY can make that choice for you, nor should they. People have to carry what they feel they can depend on, and that which is within their trained ability to handle and operate safely. For some people this may mean not carrying a firearm at all.
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    I carry my 1911s in C-1. I carry my Hi-power on half cock, round chambered. On my DA/SA pistols, I carry hammer down on a loaded chamber--both have decock levers. I've had the HP for going on 40 years, so am comfortable and used to carrying that way. I don't advise it, necessarily, but recommend you find what you are comfortable with and do it consistently. Putting the finger of your weak had between the hammer and fp when letting hammer down is safe and effective. Once you relase the trigger, thumb on hammer and let the trigger go to reset, the firing pin safety takes over in most guns anyway. Whatever you do, practice it with an unloaded weapon many times first.
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    since9 wrote:
    I've heard a lot of hoopla about "Condition 1." Sure, my gun supports that. A simple draw and flick of the safety and I'm off and running!

    However, I much prefer chambering a round, then going through the dicey process (for my weapon) of manually lowering the hammer on a chambered round. It helps that my weapon has a trigger block, so as long as I don't slip, if I let off the trigger just before the hammer reaches home, the trigger block ensures it won't fire.

    But it is a touch risky (my weapon does not have a decocker).

    Because it's risky, I always perform this while the muzzle is buried in a a full basket of laundry! It might ruin some clothes, but that's a small price to pay for a silenced and protected "ooops..."

    Back to the issue:

    I grew up with revolvers. Fully loaded, one pull, one fire. Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM!

    I have the option of setting up my weapon, so I choose the same option: Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM! Only it's a 16-shot semi-auto, with one in the chamber, so I've 17 shots total before I need to reload, and the slide lock helps me with this by saying, "you're out, stupid."

    To me, this makes perfect sense. In a firefight, the instinct is to draw, point, and pull the trigger. I've never been in any actual firefights, but I've simulated a dozen of them on various training ranges. Still, despite 20 years in the military I have a tenth the training of your average cop.

    No matter how many times I think about it, I can't wrap my head around the idea of "Condition 1," with one possible excepton: Let's say I'm involved in a firefighter, or I'm at the range and the rangemaster calls "cease fire!" I hit the safety and I'm in Condition 1.

    And I do practice this mode of operation simply because it might happen that I need to do safe my weapon but would never want to go through the laborious and defenseless task of dropping the clip, racking the round, and reinserting the slide... At least until it's safe to do so, of course.

    So again: Please explain to me this preoccupation with day-to-day carry in a "Condition 1" configuration. Just doesn't make sense to me.
    I really would not recommend lowering your hammer down onto a live chambered round. This is extremely dangerous, not to mention it also ads an unnecessary step if the need to actually use your weapon would arise.

    I also support Hawkflyer's statement. It doesn't matter how many safety features a gun has. The MOST important safety feature is your brain. Always handle a firearm as if the safety is off and the gun is ready to fire at the pull of the trigger. There is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only a negligent one.

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    SNIP...misadventure...
    Penalty flag for using big words on a gun-guy forum. :P
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    Citizen wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    SNIP...misadventure...
    Penalty flag for using big words on a gun-guy forum. :P
    Unnecessary delay of game, forfeiture of down.

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    The Model 1911 and its clones are DESIGNED to be carried with a round chambered, the hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. That carry method was developed BEFORE the grip safety, the trigger interlock safety and the firing pin lock, and it worked very well for many years, thank you very much.
    I hate to say this, but.... :P Incorrect.

    Observe the Model 1910 prototype:

    http://www.ammoland.com/2009/10/30/c...l-1910-pistol/

    Legend had it that JMB's personal gun was a 1910 "prototype", which he carried Condition 2 (some say Condition 3). The design of the 1910 (before the Army requested the thumb safety on behalf of the cavalry) seems to support this theory.

    Regardless, JMB clearly anticipated Condition 1 carry also, as his thumb safety design is one of the safest in existence. I myself carry Condition 1.

    ETA: With that said, it is correct that, in the broad scheme of things, the manual safety did precede the grip safety, even for JMB. However, *as it was designed*, the pattern which became the M1911 originally didn't have a thumb safety, that being one of the last additions before it entered production.

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    There is not now, nor has there ever been such a thing as an "Accidental Discharge". All unintended discharges of a firearm are "Negligent Discharges" by definition, because someone had to neglect a safety rule or some other handling principal before the weapon could be fired unintentionally. That is not an "accident" that is negligence.
    I disagree, partially.
    The phrase "unintentional Discharge" would fit better in many situations where the operator has made no errors in the handling of the gun, but instead a design/manufacturing flaw is responsible for the gun firing when it was not intended.

    Lets use the Remington 700 bolt-action rifleas an example, (pre-2000)several people have experienced an "Unintentional Discharge" with that model while moving the safety leve to the fire position, The flaw was not known during manufacture, but was onlyfound after several owners of this gun reportedthe issueto remington, they redesigned the safety system to fix the problem. I do not see that issue a negligence on the operators part, if the projectile were to damage anything or anyone, then I would consider it negligence.

    Unexpected things will happen, that is why every gun needs to be treated as if it is loaded and going to fire if intended to fire or not.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    The Model 1911 and its clones are DESIGNED to be carried with a round chambered, the hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. That carry method was developed BEFORE the grip safety, the trigger interlock safety and the firing pin lock, and it worked very well for many years, thank you very much.
    I hate to say this, but.... :P Incorrect.

    Observe the Model 1910 prototype:

    http://www.ammoland.com/2009/10/30/c...l-1910-pistol/

    Legend had it that JMB's personal gun was a 1910 "prototype", which he carried Condition 2 (some say Condition 3). The design of the 1910 (before the Army requested the thumb safety on behalf of the cavalry) seems to support this theory.

    Regardless, JMB clearly anticipated Condition 1 carry also, as his thumb safety design is one of the safest in existence. I myself carry Condition 1.

    ETA: With that said, it is correct that, in the broad scheme of things, the manual safety did precede the grip safety, even for JMB. However, *as it was designed*, the pattern which became the M1911 originally didn't have a thumb safety, that being one of the last additions before it entered production.
    I hate to quibble but that is why I said model of 1911. When the 1910 prototype was designed most people figured you did not need a safety on a single action. If you wanted it safe you did not cock it, or you kept your finger off the trigger.

    But that was after all a prototype design that was later modified to include our little friend that goes "snick" in the night. But even the so called "hammer-less" pocket pistols had a safety, because the hammer was inside the slide and out of reach of the operator.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I'm not disputing anything you just said. My point is merely that Condition 1 carry was something of an afterthought compared to Condition 2 (half-cock) when it comes to the design history of the 1911.

    The fact that JMB kept a 1910 speaks volumes in this regard.

    None of this indicates, of course, that Condition 1 was unintended or is unsafe, or is anything other than ideal, for that matter.

    I guess I just wanted to make it clear that the 1911 is, old as it is, designed with numerous carry methods in mind, just like the pistols of today.

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    There is not now, nor has there ever been such a thing as an "Accidental Discharge". All unintended discharges of a firearm are "Negligent Discharges" by definition, because someone had to neglect a safety rule or some other handling principal before the weapon could be fired unintentionally. That is not an "accident" that is negligence.
    I disagree, partially.
    The phrase "unintentional Discharge" would fit better in many situations where the operator has made no errors in the handling of the gun, but instead a design/manufacturing flaw is responsible for the gun firing when it was not intended.

    Lets use the Remington 700 bolt-action rifleas an example, (pre-2000)several people have experienced an "Unintentional Discharge" with that model while moving the safety leve to the fire position, The flaw was not known during manufacture, but was onlyfound after several owners of this gun reportedthe issueto remington, they redesigned the safety system to fix the problem. I do not see that issue a negligence on the operators part, if the projectile were to damage anything or anyone, then I would consider it negligence.

    Unexpected things will happen, that is why every gun needs to be treated as if it is loaded and going to fire if intended to fire or not.
    I hate to disagree, but what you describe is better called a "mechanical failure". Any gun that you have this kind of experience with is unsafe, and should not be carried at all. Some would even say it should be melted down.

    Any unintentional discharge falls into one of two categories: mechanical failure (which is exceedingly rare), and negligent discharge. In other words, if the gun discharges unintentionally, and there is no malfunction, then it can be blamed on nothing but negligence.

    I also agree that the 1911 should not be carried with the hammer down. That is not the way it was designed. If you want the safety of hammer down, I suggest carrying a DAO handgun (or DA/SA handgun that does not cock the hammer in order to be ready to fire: e.g. a revolver).

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    since9 wrote:
    I've heard a lot of hoopla about "Condition 1." Sure, my gun supports that. A simple draw and flick of the safety and I'm off and running!

    However, I much prefer chambering a round, then going through the dicey process (for my weapon) of manually lowering the hammer on a chambered round. It helps that my weapon has a trigger block, so as long as I don't slip, if I let off the trigger just before the hammer reaches home, the trigger block ensures it won't fire.

    But it is a touch risky (my weapon does not have a decocker).

    Because it's risky, I always perform this while the muzzle is buried in a a full basket of laundry! It might ruin some clothes, but that's a small price to pay for a silenced and protected "ooops..."

    Back to the issue:

    I grew up with revolvers. Fully loaded, one pull, one fire. Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM!

    I have the option of setting up my weapon, so I choose the same option: Draw, pull the trigger, and BAM! Only it's a 16-shot semi-auto, with one in the chamber, so I've 17 shots total before I need to reload, and the slide lock helps me with this by saying, "you're out, stupid."

    To me, this makes perfect sense. In a firefight, the instinct is to draw, point, and pull the trigger. I've never been in any actual firefights, but I've simulated a dozen of them on various training ranges. Still, despite 20 years in the military I have a tenth the training of your average cop.

    No matter how many times I think about it, I can't wrap my head around the idea of "Condition 1," with one possible excepton: Let's say I'm involved in a firefighter, or I'm at the range and the rangemaster calls "cease fire!" I hit the safety and I'm in Condition 1.

    And I do practice this mode of operation simply because it might happen that I need to do safe my weapon but would never want to go through the laborious and defenseless task of dropping the clip, racking the round, and reinserting the slide... At least until it's safe to do so, of course.

    So again: Please explain to me this preoccupation with day-to-day carry in a "Condition 1" configuration. Just doesn't make sense to me.
    It sounds to me that what your seem to prefer, what you would be most comfortable with, is a DAO (Double Action Only) pistol of the Kahr design. The Kahr pistol's trigger has a very smooth and consisten 3/8" travel to letoff and could feel to you very similar to a fine double action revolver. This gun has no external safeties to get in the way and is inherently safe to carry in full battery because of its DAO design. It is a pull, point, and shoot gun. Their all steel pistols are their best in terms of feel and reliability.
    I have the Kahr CW9, and just orderd a new CW40 I love this design, and the slimline feel of this handgun w/ the single stack Mag. and don'tanticipate at this time that I will ever prefer to carry any other semi auto open or concealed. of course these 2 pistols have a poly frame, and metal slides, but the weight and girth is virtually unnoticable , the balance is awesome w/full mag inserted, and in training when I clear leather I've got 4 rnds. in center mass seconds before 5 fellow shooters with 1911 style semiautos.

    P.S. I'm a southpaw and don't like the surplus on an anbidextrous design. This is just what I found that works best for me.



  20. #20
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Why has nobody pointed out that, if the original poster is using a 1911, even a series 80, it is considered UNSAFE to carry condition 2? If you don't have a DA or DAO firearm you are not supposed to put the hammer down.

    Why? because you never pull the trigger on a firearm unless you want it to go BANG. If it doesn't provide a way to de-cock without using the trigger than it doesn't get de-cocked.

    For those who find this unclear, please see RULE 1

    TREAT EVERY FIREARM AS IF IT IS LOADED

    p.s. I know there are a few pistols out there which are DA/SA but require trigger de-cocking. My motto is treat it like it is SA. If there is a pistol like this without a manual safety I don't know of it.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Hi, all - great replies, and I read them all.

    Couple of clarifications:

    First, the five conditions:

    • Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
    • Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
    • Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
    • Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
    • Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
    Second, my primary carry weapon is a CZ 85 B. One of its variants, the CZ 85 BD includes a decocker, but no safety. I'd have preferred that, as that's more like the mode of operation of the Beretta I carried while in the service, but couldn't find one.

    Third, I carry condition two because the gun has a trigger interlock. Yes, manually lowering the hammer is dangerous! So is flying in combat. I've done both, and am very careful. The good news is that the trigger interlock is engaged when the trigger is released. Thus, technically, I'm not lowering the hammer on a chambered round, as I release the trigger fully before the hammer is fully lowered. Yes, I could slip with the trigger and the weapon could go bang, hence my practice of doing so in a hamper full of dirty clothes.

    My other weapon, which I only carry during "frontier days" is a .44 cap and ball black powder revolver. I consider the mere act of putting caps onto a loaded cylinder to be much more dangerous than manual decocking my CZ.

    Thanks for your comments!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Since quote: "Third, I carry condition two because the gun has a trigger interlock. Yes, manually lowering the hammer is dangerous! So is flying in combat. I've done both, and am very careful."

    Me to, but the Hi-Power was condition three when flying as the Gs of an ejection from a Phantom would have launched the inertia firing pin. Bad ju-ju. Fortunately, never had the situation, but having the Hi-Power along with the piddly Combat Masterpiece in .38spcl the Air Force issued to aviators in SEA was very comforting. Especially with Super-Vels in all three magazines...
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  23. #23
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    I carry an XD.40, its a DAO with no thumb safety in condition 1.

    I do this for several reasons. All guns are always loaded. wether they are or not. As it has been said, any safety can fail, yet I treat every gun as though it had no safety. I like the XD because you could throw the thing out the window of a car, and first, it wont go off, and second, you could then pick it up, point it at a target, and it would fire. I carry this because it doesnt have an external hammer, and there is no thumb safety. I would never carry a primary defensive weapon with one. Forget this, and you could die, your concentration is broken, and your confidence will be affected. The gun also operates silently until you want to fire. There uis no guesswork with this gun, you draw, aim, finger to trigger, and fire. By the time you draw, chamber a round, disengage the safety, aim, place finger on trigger and fire, you have been hit 2 or 3 times.







  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Strictly speaking the XD is SAO.

    Edit: Also, if you know how to properly grip that 1911 in your avatar, your grip itself should positively disable the thumb safety every time. The way I grip a 1911, the thumb safety is turned off by my assuming the proper grip as I bring the gun to ready. Turning it back on before holstering is the part that actually must be remembered.

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Strictly speaking the XD is SAO.

    Edit: Also, if you know how to properly grip that 1911 in your avatar, your grip itself should positively disable the thumb safety every time. The way I grip a 1911, the thumb safety is turned off by my assuming the proper grip as I bring the gun to ready. Turning it back on before holstering is the part that actually must be remembered.
    This is true. I also saw this in his post but decided to pass it up because it seems most every time I get involved in a discussion about the action types of various pistols, someone's feathers get ruffled. But you're correct. It is a hybrid SAO pistol.

    I say hybrid because this adjective also applies well to M&P's and Glocks. The thing some people seem to forget is that the "action" nomenclature always refers to what the trigger does.. what its task(s) are in the design of the pistol. The XD trigger can only do one thing; release the sear. Unlike the Glock trigger, it does not complete the cocking of the striker prior to release. The XD's striker is already in its fully cocked state, so all the trigger need to is to activate the sear to release the striker.

    I'm going to quit now because I suspect some more feathers are about to get ruffled and frankly, I am in no mood for any such thing at the moment.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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