Condition 1 vs Chambered and Down

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Hi, all - great replies, and I read them all.

Couple of clarifications:

First, the five conditions:

• Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
• Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
• Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Second, my primary carry weapon is a CZ 85 B. One of its variants, the CZ 85 BD includes a decocker, but no safety. I'd have preferred that, as that's more like the mode of operation of the Beretta I carried while in the service, but couldn't find one.

Third, I carry condition two because the gun has a trigger interlock. Yes, manually lowering the hammer is dangerous! So is flying in combat. I've done both, and am very careful. The good news is that the trigger interlock is engaged when the trigger is released. Thus, technically, I'm not lowering the hammer on a chambered round, as I release the trigger fully before the hammer is fully lowered. Yes, I could slip with the trigger and the weapon could go bang, hence my practice of doing so in a hamper full of dirty clothes.

My other weapon, which I only carry during "frontier days" is a .44 cap and ball black powder revolver. I consider the mere act of putting caps onto a loaded cylinder to be much more dangerous than manual decocking my CZ.

Thanks for your comments!

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Since quote: "Third, I carry condition two because the gun has a trigger interlock. Yes, manually lowering the hammer is dangerous! So is flying in combat. I've done both, and am very careful."

Me to, but the Hi-Power was condition three when flying as the Gs of an ejection from a Phantom would have launched the inertia firing pin. Bad ju-ju. Fortunately, never had the situation, but having the Hi-Power along with the piddly Combat Masterpiece in .38spcl the Air Force issued to aviators in SEA was very comforting. Especially with Super-Vels in all three magazines...

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I carry an XD.40, its a DAO with no thumb safety in condition 1.

I do this for several reasons. All guns are always loaded. wether they are or not. As it has been said, any safety can fail, yet I treat every gun as though it had no safety. I like the XD because you could throw the thing out the window of a car, and first, it wont go off, and second, you could then pick it up, point it at a target, and it would fire. I carry this because it doesnt have an external hammer, and there is no thumb safety. I would never carry a primary defensive weapon with one. Forget this, and you could die, your concentration is broken, and your confidence will be affected. The gun also operates silently until you want to fire. There uis no guesswork with this gun, you draw, aim, finger to trigger, and fire. By the time you draw, chamber a round, disengage the safety, aim, place finger on trigger and fire, you have been hit 2 or 3 times.

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Strictly speaking the XD is SAO.

Edit: Also, if you know how to properly grip that 1911 in your avatar, your grip itself should positively disable the thumb safety every time. The way I grip a 1911, the thumb safety is turned off by my assuming the proper grip as I bring the gun to ready. Turning it back on before holstering is the part that actually must be remembered.

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marshaul wrote:

Strictly speaking the XD is SAO.

Edit: Also, if you know how to properly grip that 1911 in your avatar, your grip itself should positively disable the thumb safety every time. The way I grip a 1911, the thumb safety is turned off by my assuming the proper grip as I bring the gun to ready. Turning it back on before holstering is the part that actually must be remembered.

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This is true. I also saw this in his post but decided to pass it up because it seems most every time I get involved in a discussion about the action types of various pistols, someone's feathers get ruffled. But you're correct. It is a hybrid SAO pistol.

I say hybrid because this adjective also applies well to M&P's and Glocks. The thing some people seem to forget is that the "action" nomenclature always refers to what the trigger does.. what its task(s) are in the design of the pistol. The XD trigger can only do one thing; release the sear. Unlike the Glock trigger, it does not complete the cocking of the striker prior to release. The XD's striker is already in its fully cocked state, so all the trigger need to is to activate the sear to release the striker.

I'm going to quit now because I suspect some more feathers are about to get ruffled and frankly, I am in no mood for any such thing at the moment.

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seriously?

Im not too good to learn anything from anyone. Thats one of the main reasons I came to OCDO. I aint mad atcha. A little suprised, as I thought, and read everywhere that the XD is a DAO, but your explination does make perfect sense. Must be a SAO.

As far as the 1911 in the photo, its a Kimber custom eclipse II. I have yet to fire it, but I like the way it feels in the hand, and I like the finish, and It seems to be made well. Good reveiws for the most part. I cant say at all that I am familiar with it yet, Its a dream gun for me, cant afford it.

The reason I dont want the thumb safety probably comes from my first gun safety class. We were using a PX4 Beretta, and learning drills from low ready, pull the gun up and fire as soon as we thought we were on target, and another, where we would place the gun on the table and on command, pick it up and fire. I, on both drills, forgot the dang safety, found the target, and....click:?, no bang. Not too happy about this, being used to my XD. point, squeeze BANGeverytime! other than that, I really liked the Beretta, that twisty barrel, and good looks were pretty cool. Accurate too, If they had it without the safety, I might add it to my wish list.

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stainless1911 wrote:

seriously?

Im not too good to learn anything from anyone. Thats one of the main reasons I came to OCDO. I aint mad atcha. A little suprised, as I thought, and read everywhere that the XD is a DAO, but your explination does make perfect sense. Must be a SAO.

As far as the 1911 in the photo, its a Kimber custom eclipse II. I have yet to fire it, but I like the way it feels in the hand, and I like the finish, and It seems to be made well. Good reveiws for the most part. I cant say at all that I am familiar with it yet, Its a dream gun for me, cant afford it.

The reason I dont want the thumb safety probably comes from my first gun safety class. We were using a PX4 Beretta, and learning drills from low ready, pull the gun up and fire as soon as we thought we were on target, and another, where we would place the gun on the table and on command, pick it up and fire. I, on both drills, forgot the dang safety, found the target, and....click:?, no bang. Not too happy about this, being used to my XD. point, squeeze BANGeverytime! other than that, I really liked the Beretta, that twisty barrel, and good looks were pretty cool. Accurate too, If they had it without the safety, I might add it to my wish list.

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The Px4 is available with decocking safety in DA/SA and with or without in DAO "constant action" models. Sorry, but no factory air or moonroof available.....

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stainless1911 wrote:

seriously?

Im not too good to learn anything from anyone. Thats one of the main reasons I came to OCDO. I aint mad atcha. A little suprised, as I thought, and read everywhere that the XD is a DAO, but your explination does make perfect sense. Must be a SAO.

As far as the 1911 in the photo, its a Kimber custom eclipse II. I have yet to fire it, but I like the way it feels in the hand, and I like the finish, and It seems to be made well. Good reveiws for the most part. I cant say at all that I am familiar with it yet, Its a dream gun for me, cant afford it.

The reason I dont want the thumb safety probably comes from my first gun safety class. We were using a PX4 Beretta, and learning drills from low ready, pull the gun up and fire as soon as we thought we were on target, and another, where we would place the gun on the table and on command, pick it up and fire. I, on both drills, forgot the dang safety, found the target, and....click:?, no bang. Not too happy about this, being used to my XD. point, squeeze BANGeverytime! other than that, I really liked the Beretta, that twisty barrel, and good looks were pretty cool. Accurate too, If they had it without the safety, I might add it to my wish list.

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Good for you and that is exactly the same position I take as well. I have found over the years, about any number of topics, that the more you learn, the more you discover how much you really don't know about something. There is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know", and there is certainly nothing wrong with a little humility.

You observations about forgetting to deactivate the safety on a pistol in a training exercise is real in my opinion, and is also the primary reason I don't want any sort of external safeties, levers, buttons, or switches on any of my SD guns. The only thing I want to have to concern myself with is pulling the gun, pointing it, and hearing it go bang when I pull the trigger.

We are on the same page here.


As for discussions of action types and such, you'd be surprised how such discourse has gone when discussing something as simple and basic and a pistol's action. So now I try to avoid this most of the time and just let those who are so ingrained with their misgivings to believe as they will. To me, it's so simple to determine a pistol's action but then again, perhaps it is I who is in error.

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stainless1911 wrote:

seriously?

Im not too good to learn anything from anyone. Thats one of the main reasons I came to OCDO. I aint mad atcha....

The reason I dont want the thumb safety probably comes from my first gun safety class. We were using a PX4 Beretta, and learning drills from low ready, pull the gun up and fire as soon as we thought we were on target, and another, where we would place the gun on the table and on command, pick it up and fire. I, on both drills, forgot the dang safety, found the target, and....click:?, no bang. Not too happy about this, being used to my XD. point, squeeze BANGeverytime! other than that, I really liked the Beretta, that twisty barrel, and good looks were pretty cool. Accurate too, If they had it without the safety, I might add it to my wish list.

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So, operator malfunction is going to prevent you from owning a gun you otherwise admire and are comfortable with

It simply comes back to practice, practice, practice ... you will soon have enough muscle-memory to be able to pick up either of the guns and operate it smoothly through safety-off and firing without having to think about it.

After the first advanced pistol class I took, the next class (with mostly newbys) demonstrated again the value of practicing from the draw through firing. There were only three out of 12 that had any serious gun-handling experience. Two folks had just purchased their first handgun the night before ... and only one of those had the presence of mind to clean her gun before bringing it to the range (she then used a cloth to wipe all the gun oil off, so she had other functioning problems.) It was slightly irritating through the first three relays while the other's basically figured out how to work the drill. Of course, that was basically what the course was about, but I felt that some were not experienced/ready for that level of course without the beginning pistol class. There were a lot of A/D's and one guy almost nailed his foot when he holstered with his finger on the trigger. A lot of rounds were also kicking up dirt near the top of the backstop, or between our line and the targets :what:

And then, on top of that, some of the new guns were having feeding problems, and the range officers were yelling ... best way to learn, under pressure in a controlled environment, but I generally stood about a half-step back from the two on my sides so I could keep an eye on them

Stainless, as you become more comfortable with the firearms you already have, and more confident in yourself, I magically predict that one day, you will own a gun with a safety :lol:

It's like riding a bike, once you learn, you never forget :celebrate

Or look at it this way, do you drive an automatic or a stick? Can you drive both? Then why would you limit yourself to only one 'flavor' of firearm?

What if you have to pick up your friend's gun ... will you know how to operate it? Maybe that was the point of the exercise in your class?

cheers, dude

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okboomer wrote:
Its not that operator malfunction would going to prevent you from owning a gunI like, but it opened my eyes to the fact that I can make a mistake, even immediately after receiving instructions. Then theres thr real world when you are suprised scared, angry, or justor woken up. Its a human thing. So, knowing this, why would I take the chance with my safety or others, with some unnecessary gadget on a gun? We know that anything manmade can fail, so why add another system you dont need? Just more to go wrong.

As far as muscle memory goes, you are correct. Yet its best to try to get to the same place the simplest way. You can add 1+1 to get 2, but you can also add 2+5+7+3-15 to get 2 as well.

There are several guns that have unnecessary equipment that I want, like the kimber in my avatar, but I wouldnt carry one unless I had to. And if for instance, therewere twoPX4s on the store shelf, one with a thumb safety and one without, I wouldnt even ask to see the one with the safety.

It is important to be proficient in as many different features as you can, but a lot can be said for carryingthe samegun in the same place, at all times.

And yes, I drive a stick.:dude:I really dont like automatics, doesnt feel like Im driving.
Same concept really. With an automatic, you are relying on a machine to do what you should be doing.

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stainless1911 wrote:

And yes, I drive a stick.:dude:I really dont like automatics, doesnt feel like Im driving.
Same concept really. With an automatic, you are relying on a machine to do what you should be doing.

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You carry a single shot, black powder?

Yata hey

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stainless1911 wrote:

okboomer wrote:
Its not that operator malfunction would going to prevent you from owning a gunI like, but it opened my eyes to the fact that I can make a mistake, even immediately after receiving instructions. Then theres thr real world when you are suprised scared, angry, or justor woken up. Its a human thing. So, knowing this, why would I take the chance with my safety or others, with some unnecessary gadget on a gun? We know that anything manmade can fail, so why add another system you dont need? Just more to go wrong.

As far as muscle memory goes, you are correct. Yet its best to try to get to the same place the simplest way. You can add 1+1 to get 2, but you can also add 2+5+7+3-15 to get 2 as well.

There are several guns that have unnecessary equipment that I want, like the kimber in my avatar, but I wouldnt carry one unless I had to. And if for instance, therewere twoPX4s on the store shelf, one with a thumb safety and one without, I wouldnt even ask to see the one with the safety.

It is important to be proficient in as many different features as you can, but a lot can be said for carryingthe samegun in the same place, at all times.

And yes, I drive a stick.:dude:I really dont like automatics, doesnt feel like Im driving.
Same concept really. With an automatic, you are relying on a machine to do what you should be doing.

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Amen to that. I won't even consider the purchase of a personal driving machine unless it has a manual transmission. Never have and I'm not about to start any time soon.

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Grapeshot wrote:

stainless1911 wrote:

And yes, I drive a stick.:dude:I really dont like automatics, doesnt feel like Im driving.
Same concept really. With an automatic, you are relying on a machine to do what you should be doing.

Click to expand...

You carry a single shot, black powder?

Yata hey

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Interesting you say that. At yesterday's Richmond Lobby Day, I saw a fellow with a hogleg in an old fashion holster rigged as a cross draw. I suppose it was what floats his boat. Not my preference, but then again, I'm not him.

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XD .40 sub. black on black

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SouthernBoy wrote:

stainless1911 wrote:

okboomer wrote:
Its not that operator malfunction would going to prevent you from owning a gunI like, but it opened my eyes to the fact that I can make a mistake, even immediately after receiving instructions. Then theres thr real world when you are suprised scared, angry, or justor woken up. Its a human thing. So, knowing this, why would I take the chance with my safety or others, with some unnecessary gadget on a gun? We know that anything manmade can fail, so why add another system you dont need? Just more to go wrong.

As far as muscle memory goes, you are correct. Yet its best to try to get to the same place the simplest way. You can add 1+1 to get 2, but you can also add 2+5+7+3-15 to get 2 as well.

There are several guns that have unnecessary equipment that I want, like the kimber in my avatar, but I wouldnt carry one unless I had to. And if for instance, therewere twoPX4s on the store shelf, one with a thumb safety and one without, I wouldnt even ask to see the one with the safety.

It is important to be proficient in as many different features as you can, but a lot can be said for carryingthe samegun in the same place, at all times.

And yes, I drive a stick.:dude:I really dont like automatics, doesnt feel like Im driving.
Same concept really. With an automatic, you are relying on a machine to do what you should be doing.

Click to expand...

Amen to that. I won't even consider the purchase of a personal driving machine unless it has a manual transmission. Never have and I'm not about to start any time soon.

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I think I did a whole rant here (also elsewhere) about people suffering brain atrophy as a result of having to think so little because so much "thinking" is done for them by machines (and/or government bureaucrats). I prefer a stick to an automatic but its getting to where manual transmissions are an option. Go figger.

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Alexcabbie wrote:

I think I did a whole rant here (also elsewhere) about people suffering brain atrophy as a result of having to think so little because so much "thinking" is done for them by machines (and/or government bureaucrats). I prefer a stick to an automatic but its getting to where manual transmissions are an option. Go figger.

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Frequently. like so much that we are offered, there is not even an option.

Yata hey

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they should ban automatic transmissions. If you cant drive, you shouldnt,its harder to use the phone, or other things, the manuals save gas, stop faster, and have your head more involved with the task at hand.

we are getting off topic here.


drive or dont

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stainless1911 wrote:

they should ban automatic transmissions. If you cant drive, you shouldnt,its harder to use the phone, or other things, the manuals save gas, stop faster, and have your head more involved with the task at hand.

we are getting off topic here.


drive or dont

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I think we were coming back to it. The transmission analogy was not unreasonable.

As I said, "We are frequently not given the option" and that applies to condition1 vs condition 2 - the design of the gun may well dictate that within certain parameters.

ymmv

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

I think we were coming back to it. The transmission analogy was not unreasonable.

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I know, I brought it up.

As I said, "We are frequently not given the option" and that applies to condition1 vs condition 2 - the design of the gun may well dictate that within certain parameters.

Yes, perameters like buying a gun for condition 1

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with no extra safetys

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stainless1911 wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

I think we were coming back to it. The transmission analogy was not unreasonable.

Click to expand...

I know, I brought it up.

As I said, "We are frequently not given the option" and that applies to condition1 vs condition 2 - the design of the gun may well dictate that within certain parameters.

Yes, perameters like buying a gun for condition 1

Click to expand...

with no extra safetys

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Guess we've got to peat it before we can repeat it - right?

Yata hey