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Thread: OC on college campuses

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    Hey all. I've been trying to figure out whether it is legal to open carry, with or without a CWP, on college campuses, public or not. Also, what is a "public college" and which ones in Utah qualify for that definition?

    What made me do this research is that someone on the internet told me that in Utah it was legal to open carry without a permit on public college campuses. After a significant amount of googling and no real luck, I noticed this site. You guys seem have a habit of citing and attempting to interpret the actual state legal code (which makes my Mandarin Chinese class look like a cake walk), so I figured I'd post here and see if I can get any help.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Here's a CNN article that tried to ruffle feathers, and might help you with some info. My brother is friends with the interviewed student.

    CNN Article


    Keep in mind that a private college, like BYU (Owned/operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) hastaken the stepsto prohibit firearms from their property. This includes prohibiting carrying on any of their properties, churches, ballparks, temples etc...

    -Jason



    PS.. I'm new to carrying as well, so i'm trying to soak in as much as possible to get familiar with the ins-and-outs of Utah law. I do not claim any of the info that I posted to be 100% correct.



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    Legato wrote:
    Hey all. I've been trying to figure out whether it is legal to open carry, with or without a CWP, on college campuses, public or not.
    Without a CFP, it is illegal.

    With a CFP OC and CC are legal, but the UofU is supposedly trying to make the case that OC is not. So don't OC there unless you're willing to be the test case.

    It's still legal to OC or CC at BYU, but you could be asked to leave if you OC. If you're a student, you could get kicked out if you're caught carrying.

    Both of these have been discussed at length here (or maybe UCC), but the search is taking forever for me today, so I don't have links.


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    Legato wrote:
    What made me do this research is that someone on the internet told me that in Utah it was legal to open carry without a permit on public college campuses.


    The person that told you this is incorrect. While it may be legal to carry openly on campus, a permit is required, public or not.

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    At the University Of Utah a CWP is required to openly carry a firearm on campus. You can open carry on the campus legally.

    If you are approached by campus police they may cite you for open carry. However it is not illegal to do so.

    Why would a police department want to cite you when you are within your right to carry openly.

    They want a test case so I would say if you have the time to fight the citation then go for it. I would be more then happy to help in anyway I can fight the ticket.

    Thanks

    Zach
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    Zach
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    Hmm. This doesn't make any sense. Why would a Concealed Weapons Permit change anything about the legal status of open carrying? Additionally, it appears that this site needs to be updated: http://www.opencarry.org/ut.html

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    Legato wrote:
    Hmm. This doesn't make any sense. Why would a Concealed Weapons Permit change anything about the legal status of open carrying? Additionally, it appears that this site needs to be updated: http://www.opencarry.org/ut.html
    What needs to be updated? It all looks correct to me.

    Perhaps a small clarification that students at STATE schools may NOT be sanctioned is in order. Students at private schools may be sanctioned.

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    K-12 Carry
    ~Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute For Permit Holders
    ~NOTE: The Federal Gun-Free School Zones Act Restricts Carry to RESIDENT Permit Holders

    K-12 is accurate. From what I understand from the Utah legal code, K-12 schools and colleges do not differ with regards to firearm laws. However, the college section is as follows:

    College Carry
    ~Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute
    ~NOTE: Students May NOT be Subject to Academic Sanctions For Exercising This Right

    This seems to implicitly state that permitless open carry is legal on college campuses, especially when compared with the K-12 section.

    One potential point of confusion: When I say "open carry", I mean carrying an unloaded weapon in plain sight, such as a clearly and completely visible weapon in an OWB holster. I am certainly not referring to open carrying a loaded weapon (I know that much is prohibited without permit), although having magazines in a holster would be a must (3 actions from discharge). Are we all agreeing on this definition of open carry?

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    Legato wrote:
    College Carry
    ~Carry Specifically Authorized by Statute
    ~NOTE: Students May NOT be Subject to Academic Sanctions For Exercising This Right

    This seems to implicitly state that permitless open carry is legal on college campuses, especially when compared with the K-12 section.
    Yes, that should probably be clarified. Possession of a firearm within 1000 feet of Utah post-secondary campuses is illegal without a permit. Doesn't matter if it's loaded or not.

    Legato wrote:
    One potential point of confusion: When I say "open carry", I mean carrying an unloaded weapon in plain sight, such as a clearly and completely visible weapon in an OWB holster. I am certainly not referring to open carrying a loaded weapon (I know that much is prohibited without permit), although having magazines in a holster would be a must (3 actions from discharge). Are we all agreeing on this definition of open carry?
    The normal definition of "open carry" on OCDO is loaded and openly visible carry. Because of the restriction on loaded carry without a permit in Utah, we often talk about the form of carry you mention. You should probably qualify it as "Utah-unloaded open carry" (UUOC?).

    Also, the Utah definition of unloaded is no round in firing position and two mechanical actions to discharge, not three. So an autoloader with a full magazine is fine -- first action is to rack the slide, second is to pull the trigger. But on a college campus without a permit, mere possession is illegal, loaded or not (unless it's in your car, or you have permission from the administration, or it's on your private property).

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    Seems to be all clear and agree with the legal code as far as I can tell. Thanks for the eyes and brains. Looks like I'll just have to keep it in my car and wait for my CFP to carry on campus. Too bad.

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    Legato wrote:
    Hmm. This doesn't make any sense. Why would a Concealed Weapons Permit change anything about the legal status of open carrying?
    Because if you read the language of 76-10-505.5 you will find no mention of how a weapon is carried, just that one may not be carried without an exemption. This applies to most dangerous weapons, not just firearms.

    It simply codifies that possession of dangerous weapon, however carried, is unlawful unless the carrier is permitted. The permit just happens to bear the word "concealed" on it. It also bears the word "firearm", something the permit is also not limited to.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    It also bears the word "firearm", something the permit is also not limited to.
    OK, I'll go re-read the code myself, but are you saying that a CFP would allow for carrying a concealed knife for example?

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    You will find your answer in the "definitions" sections of the code. I'm too lazy to go look right now, but I think the blade on the knife has to be "X-Amount" length to be considered a "dangerous weapon" etc... Sux if my leatherman knife would be illegal to carry into a school without a permit, lol.

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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    You will find your answer in the "definitions" sections of the code. I'm too lazy to go look right now, but I think the blade on the knife has to be "X-Amount" length to be considered a "dangerous weapon" etc... Sux if my leatherman knife would be illegal to carry into a school without a permit, lol.
    The law doesn't define blade length, etc. It just says that the nature and purpose of the object must be considered. Since a Leatherman isn't designed for use as a weapon, it probably wouldn't be considered one -- probably. It's up to judge/jury to make the final decision.

    As to Legato's question: Yes, a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit gives you legal authorization to carry any concealed dangerous weapon, including knives.

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    Leelando wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    It also bears the word "firearm", something the permit is also not limited to.
    OK, I'll go re-read the code myself, but are you saying that a CFP would allow for carrying a concealed knife for example?
    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.

    76-10-501. Definitions.
    As used in this part:
    ...
    (2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    (b) A dangerous weapon shall not be considered a concealed dangerous weapon if it is a firearm which is unloaded and is securely encased.
    ...
    (5) (a) "Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon:
    (i) the character of the instrument, object, or thing;
    (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any;
    (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was used; and
    (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.
    (b) "Dangerous weapon" does not include any explosive, chemical, or incendiary device as defined by Section 76-10-306.


    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    ...
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Let me start off by saying that I'm on your side. I believe that OC is legal on college campuses according to the letter of the law. BUT(!!!), I know for a fact that at least a couple of state colleges maintain the position that it is illegal. My understanding is that they plan to warn anyone OCing first, and then cite them for violating 76-10-505.5 if they continue to OC after the warning.

    Like I said before, I'm on your side, I believe it's legal, and if I'm in the jury box, I'll vote 'not guilty.' That doesn't mean much if I'm not in the jury box and some of our fellow citizens don't accept our point of view. While my interpretation is that it's legal, I'm not blind enough to ignore the fact that there's considerable confusion on this point and a rather murky legal environment. I wouldstrongly encourage anyone who might want to be the test case for this (I certainly don't, with all the perils of a criminal trial and possible jail sentence or loss of RKBA) to at the very least hold off for a few months.Watch how HB 78 plays out during the legislative session. There's a fairly good chance that by the end the legal ground will have shifted considerably in our favor.

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    Open Carry is Legal on College Campuses in Utah off of the authority of a Valid Utah License, in the exact same light as it is withh Transit Authorities.

    With a Permit, one may Open Carry or Conceal Carry, Loaded or Unloaded, bar none.

    The Universities in Utah just do not like it... that is all it is.

    In fact, many People now-a-days just can not believe it when a State passes or enforces anything that is Pro-Gun, especially when it goes '...against the grain.'

    Then again, though, Utah is known for going '...against the grain' when it comes to Firearm/Weapon/Gun Rights.

    It is withinthis respect that Utah should be a model for other States to stand up to all of the anti-Gun charged Lunacy that is out there and manifesting itself.


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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    I would agree with you. Open Carry is legal at any State College. BYU is a private college therefore they make their own rules.
    Zach
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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    I would agree with you. Open Carry is legal at any State College. BYU is a private college therefore they make their own rules.
    But not their own laws. So carry at BYU is legal.

    However, BYU can ask you to leave for any reason and if you refuse you may be cited for trespassing. Also, if you're a student or employee of the university they can punish you through those relationships.

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    So my CCW instructor told me permitless unloaded open carry is legal in public colleges. He told me to review 76-10-505.5, that it's in there.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure section 3a ("otherwise authorized by law") or even 3c permits permitless unloaded open carry.

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    Legato wrote:
    So my CCW instructor told me permitless unloaded open carry is legal in public colleges. He told me to review 76-10-505.5, that it's in there.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure section 3a ("otherwise authorized by law") or even 3c permits permitless unloaded open carry.
    I wish that I believed that your instructor were correct, but as I read 76-10-505.5, there does not appear to be any general authorization for permitless UOC in a Utah GFSZ outside of your vehicle, property, place of residence, orbusiness. Claiming a vague exemption under (3)(a) or (3)(c) seems like putting yourself onthe fast track to getting convicted of a class A misdemeanor.

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    Correct 76-10-505.5 exempts you if you have a valid CCW without a valid permit you would be in violation of the law.

    Their are pre-schools and the Jewish community center also schools attend the Dinosaur Museum.

    It would be a hard fight in court as well.

    However I do not agree with UUPD stating you can not open carry with a valid permit. Maybe the 2nd Amendment students can work on that
    Zach
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    Legato wrote:
    So my CCW instructor told me permitless unloaded open carry is legal in public colleges. He told me to review 76-10-505.5, that it's in there.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure section 3a ("otherwise authorized by law") or even 3c permits permitless unloaded open carry.
    Your instructor is giving you bad advice.

    Section 3a only says that if some other place in the law specifically authorizes you to carry, then you can. You'd better find the statute that says you're good before you try it (I know the Utah Code pretty well, and I don't know of any such statute).

    Section 3c says you can carry as part of an "approved activity", which in this context means approved by the school administration. It would appear that 3c is redundant, since 3b already says you can carry with administrative approval, but the rationale is that 3c allows participants in school-authorized firearms-related events to carry guns without having to get specific approval each time.

    Without a CFP, or approval by the school, or a law enforcement badge, it's a class B misdemeanor to carry within 1000 feet of any school in Utah, pre-school through post-secondary (e.g. college).

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