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Thread: Michigan police prepare for more legal guns in public - open carry

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    Note: Battle Creek Police Department Commander James Saylor's comment that open carry is banned at church, day care centers, and banks appears not to be correct if the person has a Michigan Concealed Pistol License (CPL), see analysis at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/attachment.php?id=9642 (indicating that sometimes CPL holders are required to open carry)

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    http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/a...NEWS01/1190313

    SNIP

    Wearing a tan shirt, jeans, cowboy boots and a 9mm handgun, Steve Koch walked into a Battle Creek restaurant Monday afternoon.



    "I openly carry a gun because I can and because I should," Koch, 47, of Battle Creek said. "Why should everyone have insurance on their house or on their car. Just in case."

    Koch is among a growing number of people in Michigan and across the country who openly carry guns without violating any law.

    . . .

    "This is not a change in the law, but a growing trend," said Battle Creek Police Department Commander James Saylor.

    . . .

    Brian G. Jeffs, of Bath, president of Michigan Open Carry, a nonprofit organization formed in March 2009, said the number of people carrying weapons is growing.



    Jeffs said the organization has 85 members and he estimates between 200 and 300 people regularly openly carry weapons in public and several hundred others do so occasionally.
    "People are starting to realize it is legal," he said. "It brings gun ownership out of the closet. Criminals tend to conceal their weapons and good guys openly carry."

    Jeffs, 52, a senior geologist for the state of Michigan, said his group provides information about the law and the practice on its Web site, www.michiganopencarry.org, or a national website, www.opencarry.org and also holds events to educate the public about open carry. He said that education includes police departments.

    "We don't expect it to get popular, but we want people to know it's legal. . . . very rarely do people even notice or call the police."




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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    A lot of cops seem unaware of the fact that CPL holders can carry openlyin most free fire/criminal empowerment zones. I met many at the last gun show we were at who had never heard of that.

    I keep thinking MOC needs to have an event in a church or bar or other concealed carry free location to raise awareness about this.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    A lot of cops seem unaware of the fact that CPL holders can carry openlyin most free fire/criminal empowerment zones. I met many at the last gun show we were at who had never heard of that.

    I keep thinking MOC needs to have an event in a church or bar or other concealed carry free location to raise awareness about this.
    I recommend MOC work with the MI State Policeon the chart - and get it out statewide.

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    Michigander wrote:
    A lot of cops seem unaware of the fact that CPL holders can carry openlyin most free fire/criminal empowerment zones. I met many at the last gun show we were at who had never heard of that.

    I keep thinking MOC needs to have an event in a church or bar or other concealed carry free location to raise awareness about this.
    ive talked with a member about discussing with a durand resturaunt that serves alcohol.

    its a small mom and pop place,and really nice,the employees are pro 2A,judging by the comments and talks we've had at 4am over coffee over the past 2 or 3 years.

    if the owners are okay with it we plan to set up a meet there,preferably during railroad days,when its probably going to be the busiest.



    if your wondering,its called the ironhorse,and is in durand.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Mike wrote:
    I recommend MOC work with the MI State Policeon the chart - and get it out statewide.
    A good idea, and certainly worth trying.

    A problem we had in the past was that when the MSP put out a news letter with information on open carrying, few PD's took a serious look at the information, and even fewer took in seriously. However, it would make a good system to add to police information letters if the MSP had in some way approved of it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    lil_freak_66 wrote:
    ive talked with a member about discussing with a durand resturaunt that serves alcohol.

    its a small mom and pop place,and really nice,the employees are pro 2A,judging by the comments and talks we've had at 4am over coffee over the past 2 or 3 years.
    Sounds like a nice place, but less of a bar, and more of a family restaurant where simple permission to carry could be granted to non CPL holders, and CC would be fine with a CPL. Not as unknown to cops.

    Not to throw those without CPL's under the bus, (after all I think CPL's are unconstitutional and immoral) but I think it would be more interesting to have an event at a straight up bar, or other place where we would be required to have CPL's and be required to carry openly.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Be careful that we do not correct misinformation with more misinformation. It is true that Michigan CPL holders can open carry in most gun free zones. However, if you read 750.234(d) you will see that the law clearly states that anyone licensed by ' this state or another state' can carry in most gun free zones.

    If LEO's are going to be educatedabout their job, if should be made public that ANY permit holder can carry in these zones. In other words, an 18 year old can walk down the street and then go into most gun free zones with a Maine non-resident permit in his pocket.

    Also, the requirement to notify does not apply and also you would only have to present your license to carry from Michigan or from any other state, you would not have to present a secondary ID as you do if you carry concealed or in a vehicle on a CPL.

    The residency requirement only applies to the recognition of out of state CPL's for concealed or vehicle carry, NOT for open carry in firearm free zones. Speaking of which, residency rules may be a thing of the past, more on this in a later date but thigs are already going on in Colorado and California about this.

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    Any of these places are good ideas but the thing is that a restaurant is a place that you can conceal carry with a CPL, the best way to get the point across would be to pick a place where you can only open carry if you have a license to carry such as a stand alone bar, church property, etc. The problem is that most places where we could do this are not fun places to have a gathering, a stand alone bar or church property would probably be the most realistic places. Of course it would make sense to have permission from the owner of the property/establishment so it doesn't backfire.

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    Jared wrote:
    Also, the requirement to notify does not apply and also you would only have to present your license to carry from Michigan or from any other state, you would not have to present a secondary ID as you do if you carry concealed or in a vehicle on a CPL.

    The residency requirement only applies to the recognition of out of state CPL's for concealed or vehicle carry, NOT for open carry in firearm free zones.
    Why did I not know that? :shock:

    That is some very good information. We in Michigan need to start encouraging all 18-20 year olds to get out of state licenses as cheap insurance policies.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Mike wrote:
    Note: Battle Creek Police Department Commander James Saylor's comment that open carry is banned at church, day care centers, and banks appears not to be correct
    Justanonther example ofa head LEO... spouting opinionated assumptions as 'fact' to the media. The term'Legal' oftenconfers government permission, rather than recognition.Rights are recognized as inalienable to the people... not a creation of governmental contrivance.

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    The cop is wrong as usual. Open carry is banned in all those places but not if you have a license to carry a concealed pistol from "this state or any other state"

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    Michigander wrote:
    Jared wrote:
    Also, the requirement to notify does not apply and also you would only have to present your license to carry from Michigan or from any other state, you would not have to present a secondary ID as you do if you carry concealed or in a vehicle on a CPL.

    The residency requirement only applies to the recognition of out of state CPL's for concealed or vehicle carry, NOT for open carry in firearm free zones.
    Why did I not know that? :shock:

    That is some very good information. We in Michigan need to start encouraging all 18-20 year olds to get out of state licenses as cheap insurance policies.
    Relevant statute for the bold text:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gze...ame=mcl-28-432


    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.

    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.

    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.

    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.

    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".

    Notice that (f) does not stipulate a residency requirement

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Relevant statute for the bold text:

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gzetl2450x14g4adjyrr5t55))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-432


    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A police or correctional agency of the United States or of this state or any subdivision of this state.

    (b) The United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps.

    (c) An organization authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state.

    (d) The national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization.

    (e) A member of an entity or organization described in subdivisions (a) through (d) for a pistol while engaged in the course of his or her duties with that entity or while going to or returning from those duties.

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.

    (g) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms or a licensed dealer.

    (h) Purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm. As used in this subdivision, "antique firearm" means that term as defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (i) An individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting a pistol belonging to another individual, if the other individual's possession of the pistol is authorized by law and the individual carrying, possessing, using, or transporting the pistol has obtained a license under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol or is exempt from licensure as provided in section 12a.

    (2) The amendatory act that added subsection (1)(h) shall be known and may be cited as the "Janet Kukuk act".

    Notice that (f) does not stipulate a residency requirement
    Appreciate the cite.

    I notice that it does not say that the pistol must be carried concealed. Permit required, but carry style not restricted/defined.

    Yata hey
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    SNIP
    Appreciate the cite.

    I notice that it does not say that the pistol must be carried concealed. Permit required, but carry style not restricted/defined.

    Yata hey
    You're Welcome.

    MCL 750.231a, reqiures non-residents of Michigan to hold a license/permit from their home stateto carry a concealed pistol to CC in Michigan--they can still OC with some restrictions. With a resident license/permit they can carry in a vehicle.

    MCL 28.432 (posted above), allows a non-resident of Michigan who holds a license/permit to carry a concealed pistol from a state where he or she does not reside to OC only in Michigan with some restrictions. With their non-resident license/permit they can not carry in a vehicle--must be in lawful transport mode (750.231a).

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    I wouldn't do this. Why? If interpreted your way, 18-20's from outside of Michigan could OC in those places. Michiganders 18-20 could not (since 21 is the age for a CPL and in-staters can rely only on the strength of a MI CPL). A Michigan court is likely to determine that it would be absurd to allow an 18 year old with an OOS Maine license to carry in the restricted areas, while a 20 year old resident could not. Let sleeping dogs lie. Don't rock the boat, etc., etc. Yes I understand how the statute reads but that is not the end of it. See People v. Williams, - a 1997 case from the Michigan Court of Appeals for a similar tale. Sorry I don't have a cite.


    Michigander wrote:
    Jared wrote:
    Also, the requirement to notify does not apply and also you would only have to present your license to carry from Michigan or from any other state, you would not have to present a secondary ID as you do if you carry concealed or in a vehicle on a CPL.

    The residency requirement only applies to the recognition of out of state CPL's for concealed or vehicle carry, NOT for open carry in firearm free zones.
    Why did I not know that? :shock:

    That is some very good information. We in Michigan need to start encouraging all 18-20 year olds to get out of state licenses as cheap insurance policies.

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