Question about buying a pistol?

sudden valley gunner · Jan 19, 2010

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BigDave wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

Dave I wish you could debate without having to resort to personal attacks. Again tell me what is "stupid", about the statement? Oh yea everyone who never took a self defense class is stupid to you sorry forgot.

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I was referring to your statement made at Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 10:03 pm "If it's legal it's not stretching it." Still a stupid statement relating to the story. :dude:

kito109654 wrote:

NavyLT wrote:

Bobarino wrote:

there's a spot on the 4473 that asks if this gun is for you or someone else. fill it out honestly and you're still legal.

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You are absolutely correct, Bobarino. So long as you don't lie on the 4473 it is perfectly legal. So, Crypto gives you the money for the gun, making him the actual source of the payment for the gun, thereby making him the actual purchaser of the gun because you are going to hand the gun over to him after you get it with his money. You go into the gun store and answer the 4473 completely honestly and the first question you answer, "Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm", you write No on the form.

You have done nothing illegal. Now, granted, the FFL CANNOT sell you the gun, without losing their license and going to Federal prison, but YOU have done nothing illegal and are in the clear.

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Again, playing devil's advocate here...

There's a fine line to be drawn. Technically it would still be fine to be the purchaser and then sell the firearm, or even plan to sell the firearm. The only difference is when the money trades hands. It's not illegal as long as they are not prohibited from owning a pistol.

With this attitude of fine lines or blending, bending rules to suit your needs will have law abiding citizens wondering about people as yourself and your intentions.

This can give the armed community a bad name and second guessed everything we turn around.

So Playing Devil's Advocate, Play with in the laws with out stretching them.

There is your context for why I said that statement. How do you stretch a law? It is either legal or it isn't?

sudden valley gunner · Jan 19, 2010

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Thank you Gogodawgs.

So the next question raised how do you gift a gun then?

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=35160&forum_id=66&highlight=christmas+gift

And raises some interesting legal questions I referred to earlier about another thread. How does that worklegally in acommunity property state? Since the second you purchase something it is half your spouses in this state?

BigDave · Jan 19, 2010

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kito109654 wrote:

BigDave wrote:

kito109654 wrote:

You play within the laws? You abide by the Snohomish County parks ban and other unjust, unconstitutional or even unjust laws?

I'm not saying I do anything, I'm leaving out what I do on purpose. I'm simply saying these things for the sake of friendly, thoughtful discussion.

On another note, briefly:

There is certainly no reason to be rude, period. That is not up for discussion.

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Yes we work within the laws and as far as Snohomish County Parks Ban the law is repealed by State Preemption and thus an invalid law.
If you carry in their parks you are doing so legally although you may have to go into court to have it dismissed, your choice.

How is a thoughtful discussion is being produced by irrational thought? You are not adding to an intelligent conversation to help guide others into an understanding. You are just muddying the waters.

Oh I am sure you feel I was rude or will be, as I feel your argument is rude as well there is no fine line it is spelled out pretty clear.

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I was referencing your rude remarks towards SVG. You've said nothing rude towards me.

Sure it muddies up the water but if the water is so clear then we are being regulated efficiently. No thanks to that. My opinion is that it's legal to sell your firearm after purchasing it because....it is, according to state law we are allowed to do that. And we should be. There is no time limit on possessing your gun before you are allowed to sell it.

18 - 20 year olds are allowed to own a pistol yet stores are not allowed to sell to them. Their only choices are buying from a private party or having a pistol gifted to them. Would I help out any kid who asked? No, but it wouldn't be illegal for me to buy a gun and sell it to an 18-20 year old.

See where I'm coming from or is my argument rude? :quirky

True the remark was for SVG and you can see he knew that from the get go, I should have separated the comments.

Yes I fully agree you are legal to sell your firearm to another and yet it is illegal to purchase a firearm for another unless you have an FFL and go through the background check, it directly deals with you are purchasing the gun from the FFL for you.

If you were to buy a gun from a private party or sold one of yours to a person 18-to what ever age and believed they were legally able to posses the firearms then yes it is legal.
The discussion was to purchasing a new firearm at a retail store and there it would be illegal if one was to buy a firearms for another with their money or otherwise.

You can gift a firearms to an immediate family member but not distant or others not related.

edited [for the purpose of correctness one can buy a gun with his own money and then give it as a gift to another that he believes can receive the gun, remember as a gift not where one receives money to purchase the gun for them]

It is not an issue with me as to if I feel the law is right or not, it is the current law on the books and violating it can cause you a lot of harm.

edited [the discussion here is relating to someone giving money to another to purchase a firearm for them, that is illegal]

gogodawgs · Jan 19, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Thank you Gogodawgs.

So the next question raised how do you gift a gun then?

Gifting is between immediate family members. You will have to show a relationship that is conventional. Relatives, Best Man, Life long friends.

I do not believe that internet aquaintenance would qualify.

gogodawgs · Jan 19, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Thank you Gogodawgs.

So the next question raised how do you gift a gun then?

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=35160&forum_id=66&highlight=christmas+gift

And raises some interesting legal questions I referred to earlier about another thread. How does that worklegally in acommunity property state? Since the second you purchase something it is half your spouses in this state?

Here is the back of the form with the definition of question 1.

sudden valley gunner · Jan 19, 2010

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gogodawgs wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

Thank you Gogodawgs.

So the next question raised how do you gift a gun then?

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Gifting is between immediate family members.

Gotit. So the giftee must pick it up.

Most informative. I appreciate the input.

Personally, but do agree with Kito that the only way for those 18-20 to purchase guns is privately.

gogodawgs · Jan 19, 2010

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No money between the parties should occur. No barter as well. And I would AGREE with BigDave, the BATF will tell you that if you stretch this law it is a violation. It must be a true gift.

BigDave · Jan 19, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Thank you Gogodawgs.

So the next question raised how do you gift a gun then?

It has been a while since I read upon this topic,

To gift someone a firearm is to someone with in your immediate family or in your will and this will be a time for the one receiving the gift can cross state lines to transport it home.

I am looking for a reference but it may take time.

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport
into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it
maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise
obtained by such person outside that State, except that this
paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires
a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other
than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or
receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to
purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not
apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in
conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall
not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any
State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

Code:

Crypto · Jan 19, 2010

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Under this question:

11a. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

You can say yes to according to this note 1:

You are also the actual buyer if you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for a third party.

So, yes it is legal you just have to answer yes to the first question 11A.

How would anyone know that you gave MR. BROWN MONEY?

However, if Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 11a.

Noone would ever know.....

sudden valley gunner · Jan 19, 2010

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gogodawgs wrote:

No money between the parties should occur. No barter as well. And I would AGREE with BigDave, the BATF will tell you that if you stretch this law it is a violation. It must be a true gift.

Oh I know about unreasonable government. It was a comment in context to the whole conversation with NavyLt. and Kito before anybody like yourself showed a good cite.

I still firmly believe if something is legal and you are within the line drawn in the sand you are not stretching it.

Crypto · Jan 19, 2010

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Noone would ever know though, that 2 people exchanged money behind closed doors.

Inless it was audio recorded or video recorded.

sudden valley gunner · Jan 19, 2010

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Crypto wrote:

Under this question:

11a. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

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You can say yes to according to this note 1:

You are also the actual buyer if you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for a third party.

Click to expand...

So, yes it is legal you just have to answer yes to the first question 11A.

How would anyone know that you gave MR. BROWN MONEY?

However, if Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 11a.

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Noone would ever know.....

Nope and many don't.

I got some good advice about that from someone at a local open carry meet.

Crypto · Jan 19, 2010

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Nope and many don't.
I got some good advice about that from someone at a local open carry meet.

What was the advice?

BigDave · Jan 19, 2010

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Crypto wrote:

Noone would ever know though, that 2 people exchanged money behind closed doors.

Inless it was audio recorded or video recorded.

What an Ambassador you are :banghead:, jails are prisons are full of people saying "If that so and so would not have said anything they would have never caught me"

And most that carry for self defense want to present themselves as law abiding citizens and yet you keep talking about breaking the law.

With this attitude you will do the cause more harm then good.

Crypto · Jan 19, 2010

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BigDave wrote:

What an Ambassador you are :banghead:, jails are prisons are full of people saying "If that so and so would not have said anything they would have never caught me"

And most that carry for self defense want to present themselves as law abiding citizens and yet you keep talking about breaking the law.

With this attitude you will do the cause more harm then good.

I'm just stating the facts BigDave:

There is no way for anyone to know Mr. Brown got the money from you or on his own!

I'm just saying that the law needs to change so there is no gray area. If that is what they want. Right?

Sounds to me like it needs to change.

From a gun shop perspective there should be no gift giving at all. To prevent this from happening.

Or I should be able to do what I want and have someone buy a gun for me "IN THE GRAY AREA"!!!

gogodawgs · Jan 19, 2010

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Crypto wrote:
There is no way for anyone to know Mr. Brown got the money from you or on his own!

Oh but there is.....

and if you don't think so ask the FBI, Secret Service, BATF....and .....wait for it..........

the IRS....

Crypto · Jan 19, 2010

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gogodawgs wrote:

Crypto wrote:
There is no way for anyone to know Mr. Brown got the money from you or on his own!

Oh but there is.....

and if you don't think so ask the FBI, Secret Service, BATF....and .....wait for it..........

the IRS....

So, Are you saying one cannot save cash in there home for a time when there bank account is low?

Any agency could not prove someone gave you cash for the gun. Inless both parties or one of the party gave up some type of information that would get them into trouble.

gogodawgs · Jan 19, 2010

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don't be coy...

your money, even cash stored over long periods of time can be accounted for, ask the IRS....

Ask Al Capone, he was taken down by the IRS not the BATF or FBI

Crypto · Jan 19, 2010

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Not trying to be a smart ass at all. The irs could not prove it either.

You can wash a neighbors car and get 30 bucks for it. Or cut the neighbors lawn for them for 50 bucks. There is lots of ways to get cash. Then save it in your home.

FBI, wouldn't know anything either inless they were tipped off. @#$%, lmao they were tipped off about 9/11 and did nothing. Thats awhole different story though. These so called agencies dont mean anything.

There is alot of gray area in all laws, so, the real answer to my main question would be "YES AND NO" Really!

BigDave · Jan 19, 2010

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Crypto wrote:

I'm just stating the facts BigDave:

There is no way for anyone to know Mr. Brown got the money from you or on his own!

I'm just saying that the law needs to change so there is no gray area. If that is what they want. Right?

Sounds to me like it needs to change.

From a gun shop perspective there should be no gift giving at all. To prevent this from happening.

Or I should be able to do what I want and have someone buy a gun for me "IN THE GRAY AREA"!!!

If you feel you are so right then do it out in the open, well?

You never know who reads these boards you may get noticed for your comments and who know some one could tip them off, the point is you do not know as much as you think.

You have the same mentality of those sitting in prison, how do I know, I worked as a Correctional Officer for 7 1/2 years I heard many a story and a couple of things are prevalent. The laws do not apply to them, they will never get caught if I do it this way, and it is someone else's fault for them being in there.

You came in asking more of a question of how to get around the laws and actually you have received some good advice but to stubborn to accept anything outside of what you want to do.

If you want to change the laws then do it the right way and start contacting your Representatives to change the law, instead of looking for ways to break them.

This is the type of thing that gets me fired up, I take the time to research and respond when I see something that is so out of line and you are to stupid to realize that someone really does care enough to push the point.

Question about buying a pistol?

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